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bigjim36

Why do people believe the bible?

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People believe in the literal word of the bible because adhering to an instruction manual is far, far easier than thinking for yourself. By following a literal word of the bible, it frees people from such pesky things as personal responsibility and accountability.

The absurdity of anyone taking an English translation of the bible literally is also hilarious to me. Even if the bible was delivered to us from a deity, the English translation sure as heck wouldn't be the correct version to adhere to literally.

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Guyver
1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Rose - I think your comment would be more appropriate if the thread title was "Why do people believe in God?" rather than "Why do people believe in the Bible." 

It seems to me that many people think the two equivalent.  I mean, this is deeply rooted in our culture - that is Western Civilization.  If you want to know about God, read the bible.  So many people, especially Christians consider this beyond any question.  I was just speaking to a person recently who wanted to make some changes and resolutions this year.  One thing she wants to start doing again is reading the bible.  In her mind, this helps her become more connected to God.  

It didn't occur to her to begin doing meditations, prayers, etc.  - she wanted to read the bible.  This is fine if it helps her....but it doesn't help me.  I think in general beliefs are a good thing for people to some degree, and I was going to say that maybe "God" is in that, regardless of the fashion or practice.  Yet, you have psycho killers practicing their jihad who want to kill all the infidels and think "God" is with them.  That's obviously no bueno, so I can't really say that I believe God is in all beliefs.....cause I don't.  I have no idea how to explain God.  We live, we die, and then.....who knows?

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bigjim36
18 minutes ago, Guyver said:

It seems to me that many people think the two equivalent.  I mean, this is deeply rooted in our culture - that is Western Civilization.  If you want to know about God, read the bible.  So many people, especially Christians consider this beyond any question.  I was just speaking to a person recently who wanted to make some changes and resolutions this year.  One thing she wants to start doing again is reading the bible.  In her mind, this helps her become more connected to God.  

It didn't occur to her to begin doing meditations, prayers, etc.  - she wanted to read the bible.  This is fine if it helps her....but it doesn't help me.  I think in general beliefs are a good thing for people to some degree, and I was going to say that maybe "God" is in that, regardless of the fashion or practice.  Yet, you have psycho killers practicing their jihad who want to kill all the infidels and think "God" is with them.  That's obviously no bueno, so I can't really say that I believe God is in all beliefs.....cause I don't.  I have no idea how to explain God.  We live, we die, and then.....who knows?

Does god have to figure into it at all? I'm an atheist but was born and raised catholic, it took me a long time to realise how indoctrined I was and an even longer time to become an athiest. I do not believe there is any type of god/supreme being/creator, none whatsoever. I do however believe in life after death, NOT heaven and hell I must stress but rather a continuance of energy. God has no part in it.

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simplybill
14 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

My only concern when it comes to people spiritual/religious beliefs is what they do because of them. It doesn't matter to me on any personal level. However I am adamantly against abusing a belief and having it bring harm. I think you can understand that, correct?

Yes, I do understand, though I need to put that into the context of my beliefs:

My only concern when it comes to people spiritual/religious beliefs is what they do because of them. Exactly. To put that into a personal context: if I relocate to a new area, and I'm choosing a new church to go to, I look at what kind of car the Pastor is driving. It tells me (among other things) if he is living in Biblical moderation, or if he's living extravagantly on his congregation's tithes. The Pastor's lifestyle is a reflection of how much he values the values of the biblical Jesus.

 It doesn't matter to me on any personal level. It should matter on a personal level, because one day you may become interested in faith in Jesus, and the teachings and examples you follow will form the basis of your foundation. (As in Matthew 6:48 - "They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.")  

However I am adamantly against abusing a belief and having it bring harm.  Absolutely. That's a theme that runs throughout the Bible. Jesus himself confronted the religious leaders of his day for enriching themselves with the Temple offerings (tithes). Also, the apostle Paul confronted the apostle Peter. He got in his face and told him, "What you're doing is wrong, and you know it's wrong."  (Paraphrased by me.)   

 

 

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simplybill
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

It seems to me that many people think the two equivalent.  I mean, this is deeply rooted in our culture - that is Western Civilization.  If you want to know about God, read the bible.

I'm not a fan of 'religion' beyond what's said in the New Testament book of James:  "Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." (James 1:27 NLT). Christianity is less about religion, and more about action.   

In defense of your friend who reads the Bible:

Consider the difference between 'What Would Jesus Do?'  as opposed to 'What did Jesus do?'. For us believers, reading about the example set by Jesus is like reading the instruction manual of your new lawnmower. It gives us a framework in which to operate.

   

 

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XenoFish
34 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Yes, I do understand, though I need to put that into the context of my beliefs:

My only concern when it comes to people spiritual/religious beliefs is what they do because of them. Exactly. To put that into a personal context: if I relocate to a new area, and I'm choosing a new church to go to, I look at what kind of car the Pastor is driving. It tells me (among other things) if he is living in Biblical moderation, or if he's living extravagantly on his congregation's tithes. The Pastor's lifestyle is a reflection of how much he values the values of the biblical Jesus.

This is a good way of looking at it. If they are a high roller (think mega churches) then they are just pocketing the money.

 It doesn't matter to me on any personal level. It should matter on a personal level, because one day you may become interested in faith in Jesus, and the teachings and examples you follow will form the basis of your foundation. (As in Matthew 6:48 - "They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.")  

I consider faith to be a person thing. Which is why I dislike those who try to force it onto others. I figure it's between you and your god. Not anyone else.

However I am adamantly against abusing a belief and having it bring harm.  Absolutely. That's a theme that runs throughout the Bible. Jesus himself confronted the religious leaders of his day for enriching themselves with the Temple offerings (tithes). Also, the apostle Paul confronted the apostle Peter. He got in his face and told him, "What you're doing is wrong, and you know it's wrong."  (Paraphrased by me.)   

The only thing I liked about Christianity when I was a christian was the golden rule. The only thing that every made sense. Prayer didn't make sense as I felt it was a cop-out to actually taking charge in your life. 

 

 

 

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Truthseeker007
3 hours ago, simplybill said:

To put this into the context of "Why do people believe the Bible?", I'll offer this passage from chapter 6 of the Gospel of John:

"53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

      

Yea I know the verse is supposed to be symbolic and a parable but drinking blood just seems very vampiric to me and some Christians think it is meant literally.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, simplybill said:

For us believers, reading about the example set by Jesus is like reading the instruction manual of your new lawnmower. It gives us a framework in which to operate.

For the most part I think that's pretty beneficial or at worst fairly harmless.  Thankfully though most believers don't follow Jesus' example as far as his response to moneychangers in temples.  Not one of his  most divine or laudable moments.  His violence in response to that doesn't seem very consistent as far as what comes to mind when I think of what 'Christ-like' means, and is especially inexplicable for someone who simultaneously states that his 'kingdom is not of this world'.

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Will Due
37 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

For the most part I think that's pretty beneficial or at worst fairly harmless.  Thankfully though most believers don't follow Jesus' example as far as his response to moneychangers in temples.  Not one of his  most divine or laudable moments.  His violence in response to that doesn't seem very consistent as far as what comes to mind when I think of what 'Christ-like' means, and is especially inexplicable for someone who simultaneously states that his 'kingdom is not of this world'.

Jesus only opened the gates to the animal pens. When the people saw him do that, they rushed and overturned the moneychanger's tables, not Jesus.

The truth of all this has been set straight for all of you who are so deeply committed to finding the smallest fault with God and turning it into a chasm for yourself you won't find your way across.

It's a form of violence against reality.

 

 

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simplybill
25 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

For the most part I think that's pretty beneficial or at worst fairly harmless.  Thankfully though most believers don't follow Jesus' example as far as his response to moneychangers in temples.  Not one of his  most divine or laudable moments.  His violence in response to that doesn't seem very consistent as far as what comes to mind when I think of what 'Christ-like' means, and is especially inexplicable for someone who simultaneously states that his 'kingdom is not of this world'.

If put into the context of the Hebrew culture, his response doesn't come across as excessive. The High Priests had a scam going on that took advantage of the people who went to the Temple to offer sacrifices. The Priests minted their own special Temple currency, and then made a rule that all of the sacrificial animals had to be purchased with that currency. The 'moneychangers' then exchanged the currencies at exorbitant (a better word would 'extortionist') rates. Jesus was fulfilling his role as the Good Shepherd by driving the wolves away from his flock.

 

 

 

 

  

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Jesus only opened the gates to the animal pens. When the people saw him do that, they rushed and overturned the moneychanger's tables, not Jesus.

The truth of all this has been set straight for all of you who are so deeply committed to finding the smallest fault with God and turning it into a chasm for yourself you won't find your way across.

Here's 'the truth' I'm referring to Will: "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.".  Just to make sure we're clear, we're talking about Christianity and the Bible, not Urantia or other later attempts to retcon; feel free to provide the Bible quote stating the people rushed and turned over the moneychangers' tables and set us all straight.

 

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

If put into the context of the Hebrew culture, his response doesn't come across as excessive. The High Priests had a scam going on that took advantage of the people who went to the Temple to offer sacrifices. The Priests minted their own special Temple currency, and then made a rule that all of the sacrificial animals had to be purchased with that currency. The 'moneychangers' then exchanged the currencies at exorbitant (a better word would 'extortionist') rates. 

In other words, they were sinners.  Where else does Jesus respond to sin so aggressively/violently?  What happened to, 'turn the other cheek', 'do not resist the one who is evil', 'render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's', etc?  He is presumably, and I think pretty clearly stated, that he is already walking around in a world where he is surrounded by sin, including sins that almost anyone would identify as more evil or more wrong or more worthy of an intervention.  The suffering of the people scammed by this has to be minuscule compared to the suffering being inflicted by other sinners around him regularly, but this is the episode where he chooses to violently react. Context I don't think helps us; put into the context of this Hebrew culture, apparently scourging and crucifixion don't come across as excessive either...

I don't have faith obviously so I'm sure you view this whole episode a different way, I find it entirely inconsistent again with what I consider 'Christ-like'. Even though we disagree on the wrongness of Christ's actions here, the main point I was wondering about was how this 'example' fits into the lawnmower instruction book; under what conditions is it Christ-like for his followers to do something anything like this?  Because to me the 'instructions' derived from his example here look about as divine and wise as, 'clean any grass clumps from under the mower with your hand while the cutting blade is engaged'.

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simplybill
6 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I don't have faith obviously so I'm sure you view this whole episode a different way,

I believe there are times when aggressive behavior is called for, such as defending  one’s family from home intruders. 

To look at it a different way: the Temple was the focal point of the Jewish people. It was an integral part of their culture. The High Priests used that devotion for evil purposes, using their authority to keep the people in fear. Jesus wanted to make it clear there was a new Sheriff in town.

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Liquid Gardens
38 minutes ago, simplybill said:

I believe there are times when aggressive behavior is called for, such as defending  one’s family from home intruders. 

Sure, but that's not an analog to what Jesus did. There is no evidence that it wasn't peaceful until he showed up.  

39 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Jesus wanted to make it clear there was a new Sheriff in town.

He was dead a week later so I'm not sure he had the chance to make that very clear. To me this incident sticks out like a sore thumb, and to his credit unlike a lot of 'historical' figures there is very little to criticize Jesus for as far as overall behavior and attitude otherwise, outside of some of his minor fire-and-brimstoney statements, which to me makes it more incongruous. I think it's pretty clear that most of his teachings instruct his followers to behave in pretty much the exact opposite way to his behavior here, but I'm glad you aren't trying to recommend anyone behaving like he did.  No, there just aren't that many conditions under which turning over tables and driving people out of a building because you don't like what's going on there is acceptable or laudable.  I always thought Jesus was here to deliver the good news and occasionally alleviate suffering of the people at the time, not to enforce his laws.

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Will Due
9 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

not to enforce his laws.

That's what they all say. That's what they all think.

And then, it's too late.

 

 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, bigjim36 said:

Why do some people believe the bible is literal? As in everything that is mentioned in the bible literally happened. We know that's not the case, science has proven that the earth is over 6000 years old, that adam and eve never existed, that dinosaurs existed and noahs ark did not, etc etc. Yet when challenged the best they can come up with is it's scripture. It's baffling and annoying, by all means have faith but do not believe the bible is anything other than bronze age fairy tales written by man. 

Often because it is a part of a wider belief structure critical to a persons happiness and psychological well being.

My wife believes in creationism and feels sorry for David Attenborough who, in her eyes, is misled and misguided.

  She has a total belief in a loving powerful god who watches over her and offers her immortal life in return for her acceptance of his authority To her everything is a gift from  god and this includes her life.

She is never worried or concerned by anything in life because she is totally  confident that  god will look after her ,protect her, and guide her life into safe and constructive pathways (and for 75 years he seems to have done an exceptional job for her. I mean he found me, for her, to love, honour,  provide for her and protect her :)  ) 

  Now you don't have to be a creationist to have that sort of connection to god, but it helps.

Doubt one part and you  might doubt other parts and even begin to doubt that  god exists. 

She was raised as a child from  about t  the age of 10 in this belief,  when she, her mother, and her siblings all began attending a local church.

Until then none of her family was very religious and her father never was.  She went to a college run by a church organisation, to complete her education which was paid for by church members,  and is sceptical of  evolutionary science, basically because it contradicts what she "knows" to be  true.  Her values moralities beliefs and behaviours are all consistently based on Christ's teachings and biblical writings, so we do not drink, or smoke, or eat much meat, or live a materialistic life style.    We live our lives based on love (i am an evolutioist in part because of a much longer and deeper education but this doesn't cause conflict, as i also KNOW  "god" and live by his laws). and anyway i would n't interfere with a belief of another which was beneficial to them.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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XenoFish

People have forgotten the wisdom of pessimism. They'd rather have rose tinted spiritual goggles on.

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bigjim36

So getting back to my original post, I'd actually like to hear from some creationists and christian apologists who disagree with proven science and instead choose the bibles teachings. I want to know why they believe it and how can they turn a blind eye to actual physical evidence. I know you're out there. 

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Truthseeker007
19 minutes ago, bigjim36 said:

So getting back to my original post, I'd actually like to hear from some creationists and christian apologists who disagree with proven science and instead choose the bibles teachings. I want to know why they believe it and how can they turn a blind eye to actual physical evidence. I know you're out there. 

You might have a hard time finding people like that in here. If you were to go to a Christian Forum you would definitely get some feedback.lol!

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Illyrius
17 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Yea I know the verse is supposed to be symbolic and a parable but drinking blood just seems very vampiric to me and some Christians think it is meant literally.

:rofl:

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Illyrius
18 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Yea I know the verse is supposed to be symbolic and a parable but drinking blood just seems very vampiric to me and some Christians think it is meant literally.

It would be interesting to film Christians who take that parable literally and release it on youtube. Could go viral.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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bigjim36
49 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

You might have a hard time finding people like that in here. If you were to go to a Christian Forum you would definitely get some feedback.lol!

Where've they all gone to? There used to be loads of them on here spouting scripture as proof! Haha. 

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Rlyeh
20 hours ago, Guyver said:

It seems to me that many people think the two equivalent.  I mean, this is deeply rooted in our culture - that is Western Civilization.  If you want to know about God, read the bible.  So many people, especially Christians consider this beyond any question.  I was just speaking to a person recently who wanted to make some changes and resolutions this year.  One thing she wants to start doing again is reading the bible.  In her mind, this helps her become more connected to God.  

It didn't occur to her to begin doing meditations, prayers, etc.  - she wanted to read the bible.  This is fine if it helps her....but it doesn't help me.  I think in general beliefs are a good thing for people to some degree, and I was going to say that maybe "God" is in that, regardless of the fashion or practice.  Yet, you have psycho killers practicing their jihad who want to kill all the infidels and think "God" is with them.  That's obviously no bueno, so I can't really say that I believe God is in all beliefs.....cause I don't.  I have no idea how to explain God.  We live, we die, and then.....who knows?

But God is Yahweh, the god of the Bible. So they are strongly related, at least historically.

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Guyver
1 hour ago, bigjim36 said:

So getting back to my original post, I'd actually like to hear from some creationists and christian apologists who disagree with proven science and instead choose the bibles teachings. I want to know why they believe it and how can they turn a blind eye to actual physical evidence. I know you're out there. 

I think I may be able to offer you a close second as I was once one of the people who would use scripture to prove these points, and used to believe as the people you wish to hear from.

It goes back to the basic belief that the bible is "God's book."  There are variations in this belief, many people believe that God actually wrote it....via the agency of the Holy Spirit.  That is, "holy men" were moved by God's Spirit to write the words down, and these words have been maintained flawlessly through the years to provide us the information about God we need......Jesus being the pinnacle of God's plan.  For Christian people, the entire Jewish HIstory with the OT as the forerunner was intended to allow us to believe in Christ when he was finally revealed.  

Other people believe that God actually breathed the words of the bible, as that's how they interpret the Greek word meaning for the term inspired.  So, basically since the bible is "God's book" and it represents the ultimate and only real truth, everything else is secondary, inferior or flawed.  This goes for the reasonings of man and even science itself.

They believe that evolution is one of the prime deceptions that keep people from believing in God - that we were not descended from apelike ancestors, but instead were intentionally created by God as we are right now.  Many accept the Genesis stories as literal or the symbolic expression of literal truth.  So, for many science is a form of evil - or deception - or the devil's work.  Their theology allows for "God's Opposite" in a real sense, a higher order being who exists as God's enemy, the enemy of the church, and really the ruler of this world who hates God, all the people in the world, and would like to cause us all to burn in firey hell.  FWIW.  

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Guyver
34 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

But God is Yahweh, the god of the Bible. So they are strongly related, at least historically.

Right.....well, you can call me the King of France - and even convince people that I am, but that doesn't make it true.  

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Rlyeh
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

Right.....well, you can call me the King of France - and even convince people that I am, but that doesn't make it true.  

Yeah, that's got nothing to do with my comment.

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