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bigjim36

Why do people believe the bible?

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joc
31 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

John 8:12

Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, "I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won't have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life."

Malachi 4:2

"But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

giphy-facebook_s.jpg

Is that somehow suppose to invalidate the fact that the creation story is unbelievable?

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GoldenWolf
Just now, joc said:

Is that somehow suppose to invalidate the fact that the creation story is unbelievable?

Creation before the creator....

I'm validating that is unbelievable.

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joc
9 hours ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Creation before the creator....

I'm validating that is unbelievable.

Okay.  But....that does beg the question:

At what point, and by what action, was the Creator brought into existence?   

And it also begs other questions:

How does The Universe become created without a transference of energy? 

...and...

How does The Creator become created without a transference of energy?

....and....

Where and how did the energy that was transferred to the Creator, and thusly, to the Universe come into existence?

Edited by joc
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GoldenWolf
1 minute ago, joc said:

At what point, and by what action, was the Creator brought into existence?  

 

By biblical reasoning, it would be the 4th day. He is the sun of righteousness http://biblehub.com/malachi/4-2.htm.

Quote

How does The Universe become created without a transference of energy? 

Beats me.

I've never said biblical reasoning was sane.

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joc
3 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

By biblical reasoning, it would be the 4th day. He is the sun of righteousness http://biblehub.com/malachi/4-2.htm.

Beats me.

I've never said biblical reasoning was sane.

That makes zero sense.

How does the 'sun of righteousness' come into being on the 4th day?   

More importantly....it just proves that those who 'believe' can connect any dots they wish to magically bring 'understanding' to that which is only understandable as fiction.

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GoldenWolf
3 minutes ago, joc said:

That makes zero sense.

How does the 'sun of righteousness' come into being on the 4th day?   

More importantly....it just proves that those who 'believe' can connect any dots they wish to magically bring 'understanding' to that which is only understandable as fiction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_believe

160642152-bdb0f59f-81cb-4ca3-a928-4cc1ee

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joc
7 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Pretty much!

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GoldenWolf
5 minutes ago, joc said:

Pretty much!

It's even worse when you realize the truth, the make beliefs are rooted from very unhealthy/malignant narcissism.

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m1ssKarma

I personally think people believe the Bible because they can't remember a time there wasn't one. As no humans (obviously) are alive today that lived before it was written, and no other book has that version of events in it, they are just relying on one book to tell them what happened from 6-7000 odd years ago, and that's just the events IN the book, there's no explanation of:

Fossils, dinosaurs, the 10,000 year old forests and peoples footprints in sand off the UK coast that have been found at low tide, cave paintings, (i've heard a lot of humorous explanations for that stuff, trust me I used to be Christian)

It's the only book with 'that' deity in it, the one that either threatens Hellfire, or promises Paradise (in heaven or earth, depending on the version you read.) This is fear-mongering, because everyone's life is in the balance. They want to know what will happen when they die, this book 'claims' to tell you. It's their comfort blanket.

Even for those people who believe it is inspired of some 'god', that seems to make it an authority, apart from the argument that nature proves the existence of a god, because humans can't do it, it's naive to me.

Just because human beings cannot create a human without giving birth to a child and watching it grow up, (which I won't knock, is a flippin miracle in itself), or create rocks and grass and animals, does not mean 'that' deity they call Lord in the Bible did it. I'm no atheist, I actually do believe in the existence of that deity, my interesting experiences since leaving Christianity have proved that. (maybe it's just the entrails of an old faith i was brought up on that has influenced that, but a lot of *** happened since I packed that racket in)

What if another magical being created everything, with or without that deity involved, and he doesn't want people to believe in magic - that much is clear from the book.

That would throw the Adam and Eve timeline to the ocean, and leave us with nature fighting it out as nature does, evolving on its own. (I won't start arguing with Darwin, guys, but some of the evolution stuff doesn't quite mesh with me, that's another issue altogether)

Why do you think the book says he destroys everything anytime it doesn't go his way? Not much free will there, and lots of mistakes, I'd say. Kylo Ren anyone??

I think i listened to some unauthodox versions of it as a kid, the creative days were explained as eons of time, natural time, not literal days, but bring up cave paintings and the like, proof of humans before Adam and Eve, and they get skittish. I think there's some secrets they've been kept from.. reminds me of that line in Eden 'are you sure...'?? Whether Eden happened as it did, or not, there's definitely some kinda cover up. Only lies would cause THAT much itchy argumentative controversy among people 'claiming' to believe in the same deity, and I don't even think it's peoples fault.

People who believe the Bible are looking for closure.

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m1ssKarma
On 2/23/2018 at 12:00 PM, joc said:

At what point, and by what action, was the Creator brought into existence?   

And it also begs other questions:

How does The Universe become created without a transference of energy? 

...and...

How does The Creator become created without a transference of energy?

....and....

Where and how did the energy that was transferred to the Creator, and thusly, to the Universe come into existence?

I have had a few theories knocking about.

If electricity is a kind of energy, it was always there, as atoms, it wasn't until someone worked out how to control them or get em to go in one direction that 'electricity' was 'invented'.

so as to the first question, if there's no 'explanation' of how the Creator was brought into existence, maybe the energy that created everything was always there, someone just needed to direct it.

question raises: WHO

This is the confusing theory of eternity. How did atoms, air, fire etc start? If fire is created by heat, which is aggravated atoms, who made the atoms?

My theory is there's a power that has always existed, like time. How did 'time start'?? Something always is expected to precede and follow everything else. When a ring is forged in a circle, where is the start of it? do you just pick a spot and call it the start?

i believe there was a transference of energy, i believe the deity in the 'bible' did start from some source, and i believe humans have a right to get answers to this, or why else create them with free will and intelligence, telling them space is out there, with no other explanation of how it really all began?

So, if the creator and then the universe was created with transfer of energy, the transfer must have come from a higher power or a source of time and place, which is the basis for all existence. Everything is there because of a time and place.

Why this baffles people is probably along the lines of that theory that says we're only using so much % of our brains.

(hope this is a useful comment and does not offend) :)

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joc
6 hours ago, m1ssKarma said:

I have had a few theories knocking about.

If electricity is a kind of energy, it was always there, as atoms, it wasn't until someone worked out how to control them or get em to go in one direction that 'electricity' was 'invented'.

so as to the first question, if there's no 'explanation' of how the Creator was brought into existence, maybe the energy that created everything was always there, someone just needed to direct it.

question raises: WHO

This is the confusing theory of eternity. How did atoms, air, fire etc start? If fire is created by heat, which is aggravated atoms, who made the atoms?

My theory is there's a power that has always existed, like time. How did 'time start'?? Something always is expected to precede and follow everything else. When a ring is forged in a circle, where is the start of it? do you just pick a spot and call it the start?

i believe there was a transference of energy, i believe the deity in the 'bible' did start from some source, and i believe humans have a right to get answers to this, or why else create them with free will and intelligence, telling them space is out there, with no other explanation of how it really all began?

So, if the creator and then the universe was created with transfer of energy, the transfer must have come from a higher power or a source of time and place, which is the basis for all existence. Everything is there because of a time and place.

Why this baffles people is probably along the lines of that theory that says we're only using so much % of our brains.

(hope this is a useful comment and does not offend) :)

Your comment did not offend, however I don't really find much relevance in your post. 

The circle of the ring has no beginning point...but the ring does. There hasn't always been matter. If you can destroy a thing...you should be able to create that thing as well. And we have both destroyed and created atoms.

Time is not really a thing...but a measurement of things. No one was needed to create the Universe it created itself.

Sparks a question though...where does all of the energy go that is sucked into a black hole? 

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Scudbuster

I have to say I agree with this Bill Maher observation:

 

 

Bible - %22I Agree%22 button.jpg

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029b10

Why do people believe the universe had a beginning? (The Big Bang)

Why do people believe that mankind began with a single set of procreator? (Mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosomal Adam)  

Why do people say the Bible says that it was a rainbow that was given as a sign to Noah? (As if the light refraction causes the multicolor band to bend.)

And the list goes on....

 

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DieChecker
On 8/9/2018 at 8:01 AM, Scudbuster said:

I have to say I agree with this Bill Maher observation:

 

 

Bible - %22I Agree%22 button.jpg

As an active Christian, I'd tend to agree also. I'd guess at least 50%, maybe 66%, are nearly completely ignorant, other the pop culture references and Sunday school stuff.

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Scudbuster
On 7/31/2018 at 6:52 AM, joc said:

 

Sparks a question though...where does all of the energy go that is sucked into a black hole? 

Very good Q and I've wondered about this myself. What I have been thinking is this: we know our universe was blasted into existence about 13 billion years ago - perhaps that was the result of some mega black hole dumping all its matter via some mass explosion?

Perhaps by doing this it creates other dimensions, something many physicists claim is very possible. I can only guess of course.

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Scudbuster
On 1/20/2019 at 6:18 PM, DieChecker said:

As an active Christian, I'd tend to agree also. I'd guess at least 50%, maybe 66%, are nearly completely ignorant, other the pop culture references and Sunday school stuff.

Yes, and the old "group think" continues on pretty much unabated. Not enough people standing up and asking questions, and too afraid to buck the "norms" of society. 

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sci-nerd

People believe in the Bible for many reasons, but they can be split into groups:

Gr. A: Born into it. People who were raised by their parents to view it as the obvious truth.
Gr. B: Crisis -> Solution. People in serious trouble who find a reliable network and platform.
Gr. C: Intuition & Comfort. People who need more than science can offer (especially "invisible friends" and an afterlife).

None of them, however, are aware about what Quantum Fluctuation is, and that it was proven in 2011:

https://phys.org/news/2011-11-scientists-vacuum.html

QF basically means that everything comes from nothing. No God required. It can be made in a lab.

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Guyver
33 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

 

QF basically means that everything comes from nothing. No God required. It can be made in a lab.

Pretty much another way of saying the same thing the bible says.  

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sci-nerd
5 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Pretty much another way of saying the same thing the bible says.  

Pretty much, ya. Except intent and intelligence. A vacuum/void has neither.

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Doug1o29

A surprising amount of biblical material refers to historical events and historical people.  For example, there are at least four prototypes for Moses, maybe five.  BUT:  all the things ascribed to Moses didn't happen to any one person.

Djehuty, a courtier of Queen Hatshepsut, was a supervisory priest of Hermopolis, an engineer and an architect.  His story is told in the writings of Artapanus, a historan of the second century BC.  He first appeared during the reign of Thutmose II (1491 to 1479), Hatshepsut's husband and a weak king.  Artapanus calls him by his Greek name, Hermes, and says he was Hatshepsut's adopted son.  Djehuty vanished suddenly in 1458 when Hatshepsut died and Thutmose II claimed the throne.  Djehuty was charged with murdering an Egyptian named Ptah-Sokar and burying the body in the desert.  Rather than face trial, he fled to Joppa (Tel Aviv).  

There is a limestone flake, a sculptor's model, showing Senemet, Djehuty's best friend, with an unknown person in profile behind him.  We just might have a picture of Djehuti made by a person who actually saw him and if Djehuti was Moses....

 

The Fourteenth, Fifteenth and Sixteenth Dynasties were Hyksos and contemporary.  The last four kings of the Fourteenth Dynasty were: Jacob-Baal, Yakbaam, Yoam and Amu.  Moses' ggg-grandfather was Jacob-Israel.  His gg-grandfather was Isaac.  His g-grandfather was Levi.  His grandfather was Kohath and his father was Amran.  "Jacob-Israel" means "Follower of God."  So does "Jacob-Baal."  "Yakbaam" has linguist similarities to "Isaac."  Yoam and Levi/Kohath don't seem to be related.  "Amu" means "Father," as does "Amran."  IF these two genealogies originated from the same source, then the next person in line is Moses.  Ahmose was the first king of the Seventeenth Dynasty.  He lived at a time when it might have been his soldiers who besieged Jericho.  "Moses" means "Child."  "Ahmose" means "Child of the Moon."  I submit that Moses' male genealogy was a Hyksos king list.

And it only gets worse.  Moses' mother was Jochebed.  Amenhotep III's royal wife was Tiye, who also held the title of Jochebed, meaning "Nobility of Ya."  It is possible that there was a minister to Amenhotep III whose name included "Moses."

 

Osar-Seph's story is told by Jospehus in "Against Apion."  In about 1304 he was caught up in Seti I's roundup of "lepers" and Semites and forced to work on construction of the new complex at Pirameses (Biblical Ramses).  Osar-Seph became a foreman and petitioned Seti (who was not yet Pharaoh) to allow the Semites to live in the old city of Avaris (The old Hyksos capital which was almost a suburb of Piramesse.).  Osar-Seph sent word to Jerusalem asking the Hyksos descendents who lived there for help in liberating their oppressed countrymen and offering them their old capital.  Josephus reports they sent 200,000 men to join the 80,000 already at Avaris and for 13 years "despoiled the Egyptians."  When Horemheb died, Seti's father, Ramses I, became Pharaoh.  He lived 14 months, died and Seti I became Pharaoh.  Then attacked the Semites, driving them into the desert.

 

Josephus tells about "Amenmesses" whom he calls "Messui."  His name means "Child of Amun."  He was the grandson of Ramses II the Great.  He became adept at military activities and in 1207 was sent south to Thebes as commanding general to wage a war on Kush where he married the daughter of the defeated king.  His half-brother, Seti-Merneptah (Seti II), inherited the throne, but Amenmesses had the army.  He revolted, but Seti went to the other pricnes and raised his own army which defeated Amenmesses in 1199.  Amnemesses disappeared and was probably killed, BUT:  it is only a few miles to Wadi Hamamat where he could catch a boat across the Red Sea, landing only 25 miles from Rephidim.  If he spent about 20 years here he could easily have been the general Ramses III appointed to lead a mining/military expedition to Sinai....

 

And there are three different times the Exodus might have occurred.  There is only one place where the Red Sea Crossing could have been, but it isn't on what we now call "the Red Sea."  Nor was it at the Sea of Reeds.

 

The spring where Moses purified the water with a tree branch was Ayn Musa.  That story is true.  In 1921 two geologists collected samples of the water, which was heavily mineral-laden, and allowed it to stand overnight in clay jars.  In the morning it was potable.  It was the porous clay that did it, not the tree branch.  Ayn Musa was used by soldiers of Ramses III as a water supply for the fort at Suez (four miles away).  That means that the biblical Exodus occurred before Ramses III built that fort.  Josephus mentioned it as consisting of nothings but wet sand.  And Napoleon drank coffee made from its water - he said it was terrible coffee, but he thought his soldiers could live on it.

 

With a little bit of study, one can see the history frame on which the Bible stories are hung.  The stories are a conflation of real people and real places.  Not exactly real, but not exactly not real.

Doug

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, sci-nerd said:

People believe in the Bible for many reasons, but they can be split into groups:

Gr. A: Born into it. People who were raised by their parents to view it as the obvious truth.
Gr. B: Crisis -> Solution. People in serious trouble who find a reliable network and platform.
Gr. C: Intuition & Comfort. People who need more than science can offer (especially "invisible friends" and an afterlife).

None of them, however, are aware about what Quantum Fluctuation is, and that it was proven in 2011:

https://phys.org/news/2011-11-scientists-vacuum.html

QF basically means that everything comes from nothing. No God required. It can be made in a lab.

Humm.... I fall under category C, but I assure you I know what Quantum Fluctuation is, and see nothing wrong with it, and God coexisting. 

Is it "everything comes from nothing", or "everything APPEARS to come from nothing"? Appearances can be deceiving. :tu:

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sci-nerd
2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Humm.... I fall under category C, but I assure you I know what Quantum Fluctuation is, and see nothing wrong with it, and God coexisting. 

Is it "everything comes from nothing", or "everything APPEARS to come from nothing"? Appearances can be deceiving. :tu:

So, are you saying that God visits the labs to make photons in vacuums? Because, they are are made by him, right?

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, sci-nerd said:

Pretty much, ya. Except intent and intelligence. A vacuum/void has neither.

A person can set a bowl of water in a freezer, and when it freezes, is it due to the natural process of water freezing when below 0 C (and thus entirely natural), or because a person put the bowl into a specific environment that that same person engineered?

Point being, just because something appears to happen on its own does not necessarily mean that it did happen spontaneously. 

True, logic suggests it does happen naturally, and that is where Faith comes in. Faith that beings community, health, healing and love to people. :tu:

Edited by DieChecker

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DieChecker
1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

So, are you saying that God visits the labs to make photons in vacuums? Because, they are are made by him, right?

No, I'm saying does that actually naturally happen, or does it only Appear to naturally happen? 

Also, just like with a light bulb, no one has to stand there and apply electricity to it all the time. After it is turned on, it just works as it was engineered to. Same here, God (given a god that can create the entire Universe and set all natural law), would have no trouble setting things up so spontaneous energy events happen. It may, in fact, have been necessary when he set things up to begin with. 

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DieChecker
4 hours ago, Scudbuster said:

Yes, and the old "group think" continues on pretty much unabated. Not enough people standing up and asking questions, and too afraid to buck the "norms" of society. 

Yes, but "Group Think" occurs in humans regardless of religiousness, education, intelligence, or socio/political persuasion. 

I do agree that it is constructive when people go outside that bubble. It helps the institutions of society to keep evolving for what is best for Humanity. Religion is constantly evolving, just as education and politics do.

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