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bigjim36

Why do people believe the bible?

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Truthseeker007
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Choose your poison: Christianty or Islam.

Hard choice. I guess at least you don't have to bow down three times a day with Christianity. And you can just do whatever you want because if you have Jesus in your heart he will forgive no matter what you do. So they say!:lol:

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Aquila King
17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Glad to be back, my son. :) Though, a little bit at a time. But, I'm trying. :D  

tumblr_ol2ib6vLiK1w0xnlco1_500.gif

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Aquila King
20 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

So now, I have a question. As a bookseller, I noticed many different versions of the bible, and varying translations of it. So, are they still the same? Are the points in it, the same, nearly word for word? 

I have seen bibles for Babtists, Catholics, and so on and so on. If it's the same, when the different versions. And with the different versions, which one is more correct over the other one? 

Good questions.

Short answer: No. There's everything from a word for word translation from the original texts, on to a totally paraphrased version, and everything in-between.

Plus there's the fact that the original manuscripts themselves contradict each other all over the place, so an 'original' manuscript doesn't really exist.

All these squabbles over which translation is the right one is pretty ridiculous really.

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Guyver
1 hour ago, Aquila King said:

Good questions.

Short answer: No. There's everything from a word for word translation from the original texts, on to a totally paraphrased version, and everything in-between.

Plus there's the fact that the original manuscripts themselves contradict each other all over the place, so an 'original' manuscript doesn't really exist.

All these squabbles over which translation is the right one is pretty ridiculous really.

Actually, that is incorrect.  There are no original texts of the bible in existence.  Every bible which does exist was translated from copies of copies of the originals.  The closest thing to an original bible text is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which are also copies of the originals), and they do not include the New Testament.  

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Aquila King
3 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Actually, that is incorrect.  There are no original texts of the bible in existence.  Every bible which does exist was translated from copies of copies of the originals.  The closest thing to an original bible text is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which are also copies of the originals), and they do not include the New Testament.  

That's what I meant to say but poorly worded it. So yep, dats da truff.

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Guyver
21 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

So now, I have a question. As a bookseller, I noticed many different versions of the bible, and varying translations of it. So, are they still the same? Are the points in it, the same, nearly word for word? 

I have seen bibles for Babtists, Catholics, and so on and so on. If it's the same, when the different versions. And with the different versions, which one is more correct over the other one? 

 

Technically speaking.....there's no way to tell if any of the bible translations are accurate because there are no original copies in existence.  I do know that according to the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah, which is available online.....there is a strong correlation in many modern versions in that they don't depart much from that early version.  But the New Testament is another matter.  I'd recommend the work entitled, "Misquoting Jesus" which is also available for free online....as it demonstrates how many changes to the text have occurred over the years.  

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South Alabam
6 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Technically speaking.....there's no way to tell if any of the bible translations are accurate because there are no original copies in existence.  I do know that according to the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah, which is available online.....there is a strong correlation in many modern versions in that they don't depart much from that early version.  But the New Testament is another matter.  I'd recommend the work entitled, "Misquoting Jesus" which is also available for free online....as it demonstrates how many changes to the text have occurred over the years.  

The first five books of the Bible, The Torah are the same as they were dictated to Moses. http://www.aish.com/jl/b/bb/48936097.html

 

The Torah is the foundation of Judaism. Without it Judaism cannot exist.

God revealed the Torah through Moses. It is thus written, "Moses commanded us the Torah, an inheritance to the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. 33:4).

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that Moses was the greatest of all prophets, both past and future. It is thus written, "There has not arisen a prophet in Israel like Moses, whom God knew face to face" (Deut. 34:10).

It is a foundation of our faith that the entire Torah, both written and oral, was revealed to Moses by God.

Moses performed greater miracles than any other prophet. Still, it is not because of miracles that we believe his revelation, but because God Himself bore witness that Moses was the bearer of His word. God thus told Moses, "I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people will hear when I speak with you, and they will believe in you forever" (Exodus 19:9). The authority of the Torah does not come from any miracle, but from God Himself.

Eternal Torah

It is a foundation of our faith to believe in the eternal authority of the Torah. It is thus written, "Things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever" (Deut. 29:38).

Just as God Himself does not change, so the Torah which is His eternal testimony to Israel, cannot be changed. Moses thus said, "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor shall you subtract from it; you must keep the commandments of God your Lord, which I command you" (Deut. 4:2). Therefore, no commandment of the Torah can ever be abrogated or changed.

The Torah scrolls that we have today are exactly the same as the Torah given to Moses by god.

The Torah consists of five books:

• Genesis - Bereshit
• Exodus - Shemot
• Leviticus - VaYikra
• Numbers - BaMidbar
• Deuteronomy - Devarim

It is a foundation of our faith that every word of the Torah was dictated to Moses by God.

 

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simplybill
21 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have seen bibles for Babtists, Catholics, and so on and so on. If it's the same, when the different versions. And with the different versions, which one is more correct over the other one? 

Hello Ms. Dooright. Great  to have you back! I have a story for your ‘Forgiveness’ thread if you’re still following it.

Regarding your Bible question:

When I first became a born-again Christian in 1971, I started out with The Living Bible because it was easy for a beginner like me to understand. After a year or so, I switched to the New American Standard Bible which translates the original languages more carefully (Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek). 

Of course everything is now online, so reading the various Commentaries on the Bible is a big help in understanding a difficult verse (or ‘passage’).

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Guyver
4 hours ago, South Alabam said:

The first five books of the Bible, The Torah are the same as they were dictated to Moses. http://www.aish.com/jl/b/bb/48936097.html

The Torah is the foundation of Judaism. Without it Judaism cannot exist.

God revealed the Torah through Moses. It is thus written, "Moses commanded us the Torah, an inheritance to the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. 33:4).

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that Moses was the greatest of all prophets, both past and future. It is thus written, "There has not arisen a prophet in Israel like Moses, whom God knew face to face" (Deut. 34:10).

From the writing of your post, specifically the use of "our" in regards to faith.....I'm guessing you are Jewish?  

In any event, it is certainly debatable whether or not Moses actually wrote those works.  He may have, he certainly didn't write them all.  The Torah describes the death and burial of Moses, and so....since a dead man cannot describe his own death and funeral, Moses didn't actually write that part.  Modern scholarship holds that the Torah had multiple authors and was formed over centuries.  There are plenty of reasons for this.....if one chooses to research it.

It's fine if you believe these things, as that is your right....but in claiming that God revealed or dictated these books to Moses, then you open up a can of worms that I personally find untenable.  In the New Testament, Jesus is quoted as contradicting certain things written in the Torah as incorrect.  That would mean that Jesus was correcting the mistakes that God made.  

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Guyver
5 hours ago, South Alabam said:

Eternal Torah

It is a foundation of our faith to believe in the eternal authority of the Torah. It is thus written, "Things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever" (Deut. 29:38).

Just as God Himself does not change, so the Torah which is His eternal testimony to Israel, cannot be changed. Moses thus said, "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor shall you subtract from it; you must keep the commandments of God your Lord, which I command you" (Deut. 4:2). Therefore, no commandment of the Torah can ever be abrogated or changed.

The Torah scrolls that we have today are exactly the same as the Torah given to Moses by god.

The Torah consists of five books:

• Genesis - Bereshit
• Exodus - Shemot
• Leviticus - VaYikra
• Numbers - BaMidbar
• Deuteronomy - Devarim

It is a foundation of our faith that every word of the Torah was dictated to Moses by God.

 

I mean, it sounds kinda good in one sense I guess.....but on the other hand it doesn't even make any sense.  The Torah provides specific instructions for the offering of sacrificial atonement for sins and justification of a person.  Yet, there is no temple for these sacrifices to be held, and there hasn't been since the Romans destroyed it in 70 AD.  By definition, that makes it not eternal.

Additionally, it can be shown that some of the instructions contained in the Torah were taken, or borrowed from the earlier Code of Hammurabi.  Specifically, the eye for an eye retribution requirement, which Jesus criticized ( and forbade) was taken directly from the Code of Hammurabi, an earlier Babylonian work.  This fact, along with other practices that Jesus condemned....like killing people for violating the Sabbath or committing adultery, and the issuing of divorce certificates means that the commands contained in the Torah were not actually eternal after all.  

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South Alabam
6 minutes ago, Guyver said:

From the writing of your post, specifically the use of "our" in regards to faith.....I'm guessing you are Jewish?  

In any event, it is certainly debatable whether or not Moses actually wrote those works.  He may have, he certainly didn't write them all.  The Torah describes the death and burial of Moses, and so....since a dead man cannot describe his own death and funeral, Moses didn't actually write that part.  Modern scholarship holds that the Torah had multiple authors and was formed over centuries.  There are plenty of reasons for this.....if one chooses to research it.

It's fine if you believe these things, as that is your right....but in claiming that God revealed or dictated these books to Moses, then you open up a can of worms that I personally find untenable.  In the New Testament, Jesus is quoted as contradicting certain things written in the Torah as incorrect.  That would mean that Jesus was correcting the mistakes that God made.  

No, "our" was part of the copy and paste of that sentence, from the website listed

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Davros of Skaro
On 1/5/2018 at 9:03 AM, bigjim36 said:

Why do some people believe the bible is literal? As in everything that is mentioned in the bible literally happened. We know that's not the case, science has proven that the earth is over 6000 years old, that adam and eve never existed, that dinosaurs existed and noahs ark did not, etc etc. Yet when challenged the best they can come up with is it's scripture. It's baffling and annoying, by all means have faith but do not believe the bible is anything other than bronze age fairy tales written by man. 

It's an addiction of thoughts that share the same neurological mechanisms for drug abuse.

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
11 hours ago, eight bits said:

Howdy, Stubbly


So now, I have a question. As a bookseller, I noticed many different versions of the bible, 
and varying translations of it. So, are they still the same? 
Are the points in it, the same, nearly word for word?

No. Not that close. Plus there are the deuterocanonicals aka apocrypha that are included in some (but not included in other) "Protestant" Bibles and in all full "Catholic" ones.


And with the different versions, which one is more correct over the other one?

That's very difficult to say, difficult even to say what "correct" means. In the original language in ancient times, there were different versions of the "same" book. Maybe more than one of them is "correct" (e.g. different "editions" by the same or closely related authors).

Translation? It's hopeless. Here are the "correct" translations I can think of off-hand for the first sentence of the earliest canonical Gospel, Mark:

As Isaiah wrote, ...

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ; as Isaiah wrote...

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, son of God; as Isaiah wrote...

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as Isaiah wrote...

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ; as the prophets wrote...

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ was, as the prophets wrote, ...

and so on. "Gospel" itself is a coined word in the original language, maybe it should be translated "good news." Then again, maybe not (gospel might be a specific kind of good news). We're still on just the first sentence, and we haven't got the correct version yet (or we do, but we don't which one).

Hopeless.

Hey 8bits! :st

Thanks for answering my questions. And that is what I thought. So, when I hear, read, and see, those claiming to be staunch believers in the bible, and live biblical, it could all depend on what bible, right? So, how can someone have such a position of being so wonderful in believing in the bible (and living it) when it depends on which one. 

Now, that is a discussion, I would think would get interesting. 

Quote

Somewhere on your shelves, there are Bibles that are labeled "study Bibles." Those offer footnotes with the important known variations, as well as "cross linking" (lots of Jewish Bible material appears in the New Testament, for example). Also, there are Bibles like the (Catholic) New American Bible and its recent revised edition that are pretty much study Bibles, but for whatever reason don't label themselves that way (at least not that I remember).

Yup, you're right. There are those varying sections and those varying books, that you have mentioned. There's so much, how can one keep up. 

It's one of the many reasons, my belief doesn't stick one hundred percent on material things, to be totally spiritual for me. 

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
10 hours ago, Aquila King said:

tumblr_ol2ib6vLiK1w0xnlco1_500.gif

:D:D:D:D

10 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Good questions.

Short answer: No. There's everything from a word for word translation from the original texts, on to a totally paraphrased version, and everything in-between.

Plus there's the fact that the original manuscripts themselves contradict each other all over the place, so an 'original' manuscript doesn't really exist.

All these squabbles over which translation is the right one is pretty ridiculous really.

I agree. As I have mentioned many times here, I had one lady, yell at me for not knowing the bible. She yelled at me to read my bible. Since I was working, and she was a customer, I couldn't really give her a snappy come back. But, one of the things I wanted to say was, I don't have one, and it's legal not too. I should also add in there, which one? 

Oh yeah, that would open a can of worms there on her too. :o    :D  

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

Technically speaking.....there's no way to tell if any of the bible translations are accurate because there are no original copies in existence.  I do know that according to the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah, which is available online.....there is a strong correlation in many modern versions in that they don't depart much from that early version.  But the New Testament is another matter.  I'd recommend the work entitled, "Misquoting Jesus" which is also available for free online....as it demonstrates how many changes to the text have occurred over the years.  

So, I wonder, and if this goes into the question asked by the OP, why do those believe in the bible, and which one, and why that one? 

Makes some interesting questions, don't you think? ;)  :D   

8 hours ago, simplybill said:

Hello Ms. Dooright. Great  to have you back! I have a story for your ‘Forgiveness’ thread if you’re still following it.

Cool!  :tu:   

I'll have to get back to that. I also feel I have some stuff to add to it myself as well. Thanks! :) 

Quote

Regarding your Bible question:

When I first became a born-again Christian in 1971, I started out with The Living Bible because it was easy for a beginner like me to understand. After a year or so, I switched to the New American Standard Bible which translates the original languages more carefully (Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek). 

Of course everything is now online, so reading the various Commentaries on the Bible is a big help in understanding a difficult verse (or ‘passage’).

Well, it seems the type of bibles and where you read them, seemed right for you. And I feel, there is nothing wrong with that. I feel, that my question was a universal one. Kind of like that lady that yelled at me for not reading a bible and to read 'my bible'. I mean, who is she, and what kind of bible does she think is the right one? 

I mean, how do those who read the varying bibles feel justified of what they read is what everyone else should read? You know what I mean? I think, I would give 8bits, the points in his post to me and answering my questions. Nothing wrong with your post or others, but what 8bits said, kind of clinches it for me. One can not pin point what is right for everyone. It's just a personal thing and what one feels they should read for themselves. If one doesn't feel it's right to read a bible ( or other religious text ) than that's understandable too. 

 

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simplybill
17 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

It's an addiction of thoughts that share the same neurological mechanisms for drug abuse.

 

I agree that the neurological mechanisms are similar, but the results (or fruits) of the behaviors vary tremendously. Drug abuse is a good example: if a person seeks that neurological high from meth, then the results will likely be negative (and probably extremely negative).

The results of the neurological high from pursuing the Spirit of the biblical Jesus are: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22+23)

In answer to Big Jim's question, "Why do people believe the Bible?" my response is: because I've lived in both realities. I have a better life now, as a bible-believing Christian, than I did when my only framework for living was my misconception that the material world was sufficient for living a fulfilling life.  

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, simplybill said:

The results of the neurological high from pursuing the Spirit of the biblical Jesus are: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22+23)

Maybe the fanatics who drive cars into crowds or detonate bombs at concerts need divine rehab?

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Guyver
1 hour ago, simplybill said:

In answer to Big Jim's question, "Why do people believe the Bible?" my response is: because I've lived in both realities. I have a better life now, as a bible-believing Christian, than I did when my only framework for living was my misconception that the material world was sufficient for living a fulfilling life.  

I agree that due to the inexplicable nature of existence (life, suffering, disease, death) many people would seek to find some answers in religion....and the bible is certainly one of those for many people.  It was for me at one time as well.  So, this does answer the OP question in that regard.  Why do people believe in the bible?  Because it's one way that some people try to understand the meaning of life.  This of course assumes that life actually has meaning aside from the living of it.  

I don't accept the bible as valid for many reasons.....but if there is a God; the only reason I can see for us being here is that we are being punished.  So, that's an idea somewhat similar to what the bible claims.  The bible promises suffering after death for many; and I think that everyone suffers plenty right here; right now.  That's one way I differ in thought from the bible.  

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Guyver
15 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

So, I wonder, and if this goes into the question asked by the OP, why do those believe in the bible, and which one, and why that one? 

Makes some interesting questions, don't you think? ;)  :D   

 

Yes.  In my studies, I've found that different translations of the bible literally change the meaning of the text.  That is something.  I can read different bibles and get exact opposite meanings.  Ain't that some sheet?  Yes it is.  

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Mr Walker
On 10/01/2018 at 3:56 AM, Truthseeker007 said:

Oh boy just what the world needs.....Chinese Christians.:blink:

No worse than Chinese communists :)  

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Mr Walker
19 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

It's an addiction of thoughts that share the same neurological mechanisms for drug abuse.

 

It is more an inner intellectual rationalisation or construct, by which people explain, and make sense of, questions their minds raise, and which are not answered satisfactorily to them, by science .Physically feeling good is not so much a driver for humans as psychologically feeling good. 

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simplybill
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe the fanatics who drive cars into crowds or detonate bombs at concerts need divine rehab?

The biblical word is redemption. And yes, the people who do those things need it.

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Davros of Skaro
18 hours ago, simplybill said:

I agree that the neurological mechanisms are similar, but the results (or fruits) of the behaviors vary tremendously. Drug abuse is a good example: if a person seeks that neurological high from meth, then the results will likely be negative (and probably extremely negative).

The results of the neurological high from pursuing the Spirit of the biblical Jesus are: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Galatians 5:22+23)

In answer to Big Jim's question, "Why do people believe the Bible?" my response is: because I've lived in both realities. I have a better life now, as a bible-believing Christian, than I did when my only framework for living was my misconception that the material world was sufficient for living a fulfilling life.  

The side effects of your addiction is slow thinking, and coming off as such. You will probably for the rest your life have thoughts filtered through superstition. People tend to look the other way because the sugar that covers the turd.

There's secular ways with dealing with addictions minus the ancient dogma.

As for BigJim he has to learn to pry at the belief without triggering the alarm bells that raises the wall that protects the belief. I do not have patience for that so I'm more on the preventive side.

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XenoFish
15 hours ago, simplybill said:

The biblical word is redemption. And yes, the people who do those things need it.

Yet without spiritual validation would they have ever been motivated to create such horrors? 

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jmccr8
On 09/01/2018 at 10:02 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Hey 8bits! :st

Thanks for answering my questions. And that is what I thought. So, when I hear, read, and see, those claiming to be staunch believers in the bible, and live biblical, it could all depend on what bible, right? So, how can someone have such a position of being so wonderful in believing in the bible (and living it) when it depends on which one. 

Now, that is a discussion, I would think would get interesting. 

Yup, you're right. There are those varying sections and those varying books, that you have mentioned. There's so much, how can one keep up. 

It's one of the many reasons, my belief doesn't stick one hundred percent on material things, to be totally spiritual for me. 

 

I would tend to think that there being several different bibles is just one aspect of why/what people believe. Experience has shown me that what people find in the bible is relative to how they have experienced life and who they cling to to lead them through transition.

There are those that have a confidence and seem knowledgeable that people are drawn to that are quite delusional in subtle  ways. Ultimately I think for many that believe in the bible it is because of the fear that they have in life and having to be responsible for living their life.

jmccr8 

Edited by jmccr8
Fat fingers or the devil made me do it
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simplybill
4 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

The side effects of your addiction is slow thinking, and coming off as such. You will probably for the rest your life have thoughts filtered through superstition. People tend to look the other way because the sugar that covers the turd.

There's secular ways with dealing with addictions minus the ancient dogma.

As for BigJim he has to learn to pry at the belief without triggering the alarm bells that raises the wall that protects the belief. I do not have patience for that so I'm more on the preventive side.

The word filtered should be substituted with the word worldview. I'm not a superstitious person, and I'm not very emotional, so I've adapted my worldview to 'what works and what doesn't', or what works best.

Take your example of drug addiction: Yes, there are secular ways of dealing with addictions, though their success rates are generally lower than Christian recovery programs which address the individual on three levels: physical, mental and spiritual. The first link below covers a period from the 70s-90s, and the second link shows how the Teen Challenge program continues to use the same method in the 2010s in treating the whole individual:

From the first link:

"By the time someone enters Teen Challenge, almost every relationship and family tie that might have been helpful in recovering has been shattered, and the individual has usually formed strong relationships with people and/or groups that actually perpetuate the addiction spiral. Those who go to Teen Challenge for treatment typically score far lower in the quality and depth of healthy relationships than those who go to STIs or AA. In spite of the fact that those entering Teen Challenge are generally far less equipped to deal with the daily issues of life, are far more addicted to a greater range of substances, often come from groups that are extremely difficult to treat, and have few or no productive relationships, Teen Challenge graduates after treatment score as high or higher compared to their STI/AA counterparts in every area studied."  (Italics added)

https://www.teenchallengeusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/1999_NW_review.pdf

From the second link:

"How Are Christian Recovery and Secular Recovery Similar?

Simply put, recovery programs take an interest in helping you recover from your problems. If you struggle with addiction, you will find helpful staff and caring individuals at both Christian recovery centers and secular recovery centers. Both methods of addiction treatment focus on improving your well-being, and they will both offer physical activities to do so. Some programs offer wilderness therapy which includes hiking, camping, fishing, and other outdoor activities. Some programs use yoga and quiet time to help you reflect. Physical activities help people regain confidence and positive emotions. Both types of programs will also help you devise a plan for your time after the program. No matter which type of program you choose, you will develop new skills to help you return to a positive lifestyle."

What Makes Christian Recovery Different?

Christian recovery at Teen Challenge USA centers focuses on faith. Secular recovery programs offer temporary relief and coping mechanisms to help you recover for a period of time. Our programs, however, put you on a path to reconnect with God. We provide prayer groups and Bible studies. These work to not only bring you closer to Christ but to also bring you closer to other participants. Forming these bonds with other positive Christian influences will help you in the difficult journey ahead. We also believe in taking ownership and asking forgiveness for our sins. Forgiveness is the ultimate redemption, and once you truly repent, the guilt lifts and life will slowly become easier."

https://www.teenchallengeusa.com/news/christian-recovery-differs-secular-addiction-recovery

   

Edited by simplybill

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