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bigjim36

Why do people believe the bible?

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Stubbly_Dooright
5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Stubble,

For some reason I tend lean towards that for the most part man instinctively has a sense to live in a productive social evironment. The 10 comandments as well as similar ideologies in other religions are expressions of that instinct. I see men and women that walk vastly different and varied live separate and yet similar to my own existence and express the same love for their fellow man. The abstract of god's laws is just a means of expressing that natural aspect of ourselves as a species, although there is always the potential for manipulation by the more calculating sorts.:lol: The common good will is not religious in nature, people will give it an explainable significance, god, religion or self then fight about who's right :lol::rolleyes:

If one looks at it from a perspective of interaction, then say you have a trained tactical teams that is going into some conflict, god isn't going to suit up and get armed and join in. Each member of the team's is god and expresses a unity as a whole it's that ability to be a part of each other that makes us unique on this planet.

Yes I agree that there is the spiritual qualities of man and to me they are a part of what we are just like we have a nose on our face it is a part of our being and I do not see it as a religious consequence.

jmccr8 

I believe, I can relate to your points. And, if you believe me, seem to match in varying ways, in how I see it through my faith. I also like to think, the aspects, are just being played in life and seen as just as it is in life, (I just look at it in two different aspects, real life and through my faith.......... if that makes sense.) 

So, I can relate to you not seeing as a religious consequence. :yes: 

 

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simplybill
5 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Yes. You have adopted a superstitious worldview.

The thing about Christianity is that it actually works in real life; not just personally, but also in society as a whole. Throughout history Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, has achieved the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people.

Please note the "when held accountable to its own principles" caveat.  

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Davros of Skaro
1 hour ago, simplybill said:

The thing about Christianity is that it actually works in real life; not just personally, but also in society as a whole. Throughout history Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, has achieved the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people.

Please note the "when held accountable to its own principles" caveat.  

Here's some reading material for ya... That you will not read pf course. 

That Christian Nation Nonsense (Gods Bless Our Pagan Nation)

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/3314

The Christian Nation Myth

https://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

ORIGINS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

http://godlesshaven.com/origins-of-the-old-testament/

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FFA

Why do people believe the Bible?

Personally, I believe it is a collection of stories that are from earths past and hold truths about mankind's origins and information about its outcome. 

I don't believe it teaches a 6000 earth model and some things described have taken place much further in earths past than what most think. I think it is intended to be interpreted literally, however the authors that wrote it down perceived and understood things differently and so it appears to us as symbolic but was records by author as literal.

The Bible is really so detailed that to see many of the points in it, a person has to study it in depth and most today are simply use to instant information from the web and so most are not willing to take the time to study the Bible. A person scrambles through a few pages and basically labels it as pointless because they cant get anything from it.

Its really unfair to label it useless when you have not studied it with enough detail to understand any of its underlying themes.

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FFA
1 hour ago, davros of skaro said:

Here's some reading material for ya... That you will not read pf course. 

That Christian Nation Nonsense (Gods Bless Our Pagan Nation)

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/3314

The Christian Nation Myth

https://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

ORIGINS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

http://godlesshaven.com/origins-of-the-old-testament/

All of these are debatable. There are plenty of documents and information to dispute these assertions. In particular the "Christian Nation Nonsense" and "Christian Nation Myth". 

I will start with an actual credible source rather than what you have provided. How about the Library of Congress as a credible source. https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

As far as the "Origins of the Old Testament" I cant point out direct errors in sections I, II, and III.

 

 

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Davros of Skaro
8 minutes ago, FFA said:

All of these are debatable. There are plenty of documents and information to dispute these assertions. In particular the "Christian Nation Nonsense" and "Christian Nation Myth". 

Then actually debate it directly. 

8 minutes ago, FFA said:

I will start with an actual credible source rather than what you have provided.

What I provided includes citations instead of a broad paintbrush article written for kids.

8 minutes ago, FFA said:

How about the Library of Congress as a credible source. https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

Funny how it does not mention that many of the major figures for the Declaration of Independence were Deists. 

8 minutes ago, FFA said:

As far as the "Origins of the Old Testament" I cant point out direct errors in sections I, II, and III.

 

Then do it! o.O

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simplybill
1 hour ago, davros of skaro said:

Here's some reading material for ya...

My eyes are open, Davros. I know this country isn't the kingdom of God on earth.   

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Davros of Skaro
6 minutes ago, simplybill said:

My eyes are open, Davros. I know this country isn't the kingdom of God on earth.   

Yes. It's in your mind.

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Nostrodumbass

Even if we all read the same ancient book, some would hear what the spirit says and others won't. 

Even if we all experience the same life events, some would hear what the spirit says and others won't. 

Even if we all had the same scientific facts, some would hear what the spirit says and others won't. 

Even if we all had the same intellect, some would hear what the spirit says and others won't. 

The ones that hear the spirit are no better than those that don't, they are just blessed with open eyes and open ears and receptive hearts, and find peace and freedom from this reality. 

May we all break the shackles of our flesh, resist the beast in us, shun the abomination of desolation, resist the man of lawlessness and expose the false religions of babylon the great.

Our world today is a manifestation of our own ego, and unfortunately we seem intent on eating from this tree of knowledge for all our generation. 

The waters of life are free, but we prefer the darkness of the deep. May God have mercy! 

 

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FFA
9 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Then actually debate it directly. 

What I provided includes citations instead of a broad paintbrush article written for kids.

Funny how it does not mention that many of the major figures for the Declaration of Independence were Deists. 

Then do it! o.O

I will show you a few things in “Origins of the Old Testamate” just to discredit it. 

Section II, second from the last paragraph. Stating the Dead Sea Scrolls are very different from what is are not at odds with Masoretic and Septuagint texts. The content from the Bible that is in these text are very close. Granted there is additional content in the scrolls than what is in the Bible as it is known today. The catholic church removed a large part of what call the Bible today starting at the Council of Trent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent  . What is still present in today's Protestant Bible is very close. A good example is Isaiah. Both scrolls and Bible match predominately. This does nothing but verify the accuracy of the Bible with a completely independent source.  

The scrolls are available at Amazon and we can gladly split hairs if you would like. I have a copy of all of them. How about you?

Section II, The first paragraph. The claim that Genesis 1 and 2 are different creation, meaning they are written independent of each other. They are not two independent creation accounts but two different accounts but part of the same story. This can be shown in particular in Genesis 7: (14,15, 16). We see the first creation entering the ark with Noah and we see the second entering latter. This can be expanded if you like. I have written a book on the subject. How about you?


I’m not arguing with over credibility of my source. Unlike yours, people have heard of mine. It speaks for itself and its is not just for kids. You obviously didn't spend much time looking through the various exhibits and reviewing the large  collection of actual of historical document images. Its not just a giant collection of text taken out of context. 
 

Edited by FFA

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GoldenWolf
11 hours ago, FFA said:

Its really unfair to label it useless when you have not studied it with enough detail to understand any of its underlying themes.

It's even worse when people label it useful without studying any of it's underlying themes.

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FFA
Just now, Mystic Crusader said:

It's even worse when people label it useful without studying any of it's underlying themes.

Example?

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GoldenWolf
2 minutes ago, FFA said:

Example?

Like when people who have never read the bible claim Jesus died for their sins, and remain unrepentant.

One reason I chose a different moral source.

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FFA
1 hour ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Like when people who have never read the bible claim Jesus died for their sins, and remain unrepentant.

One reason I chose a different moral source.

That is true. My quick thoughts are that you accept Christ existence but view the purpose Christ differently than the fundamental Christian. 

I'm not sure why this drives you to another source of morality unless your perception of Christ purpose is what is defined as negative.

Probably all incorrect assumption but these are my perceptions of you based on your post. Why does others others inability to read and understand the Bible cause you to pursue a different moral standard? Their inability should not sway your view. 

I like the view C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity In short, if you have never seen light only darkness and you suddenly seen light, how would you know it was light. He perspective was the same with morality. If there was no God how would know there was such a thing as morality. I'll give murder as an example.

If we are as animal like as most in the secular realm state then how have we formulated the view that it is not acceptable to murder someone? Our animal like nature would make murder acceptable as animals do, but we have a moral standard that has been handed to us from a higher power. This one way to know how different we really are from animals. We are either are not a animalistic as many think or we have be instructed otherwise and adopted it into our moral code. 

Sorry. I'll hush. Its kind of my soap box.

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GoldenWolf
1 hour ago, FFA said:

That is true. My quick thoughts are that you accept Christ existence but view the purpose Christ differently than the fundamental Christian. 

I'm not sure why this drives you to another source of morality unless your perception of Christ purpose is what is defined as negative.

Probably all incorrect assumption but these are my perceptions of you based on your post. Why does others others inability to read and understand the Bible cause you to pursue a different moral standard? Their inability should not sway your view. 

I like the view C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity In short, if you have never seen light only darkness and you suddenly seen light, how would you know it was light. He perspective was the same with morality. If there was no God how would know there was such a thing as morality. I'll give murder as an example.

If we are as animal like as most in the secular realm state then how have we formulated the view that it is not acceptable to murder someone? Our animal like nature would make murder acceptable as animals do, but we have a moral standard that has been handed to us from a higher power. This one way to know how different we really are from animals. We are either are not a animalistic as many think or we have be instructed otherwise and adopted it into our moral code. 

Sorry. I'll hush. Its kind of my soap box.

I went with an Alchemist type approach:

1y96pl.jpg

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Sherapy
52 minutes ago, FFA said:

That is true. My quick thoughts are that you accept Christ existence but view the purpose Christ differently than the fundamental Christian. 

I'm not sure why this drives you to another source of morality unless your perception of Christ purpose is what is defined as negative.

Probably all incorrect assumption but these are my perceptions of you based on your post. Why does others others inability to read and understand the Bible cause you to pursue a different moral standard? Their inability should not sway your view. 

I like the view C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity In short, if you have never seen light only darkness and you suddenly seen light, how would you know it was light. He perspective was the same with morality. If there was no God how would know there was such a thing as morality. I'll give murder as an example.

If we are as animal like as most in the secular realm state then how have we formulated the view that it is not acceptable to murder someone? Our animal like nature would make murder acceptable as animals do, but we have a moral standard that has been handed to us from a higher power. This one way to know how different we really are from animals. We are either are not a animalistic as many think or we have be instructed otherwise and adopted it into our moral code. 

Sorry. I'll hush. Its kind of my soap box.

 

1 hour ago, FFA said:

That is true. My quick thoughts are that you accept Christ existence but view the purpose Christ differently than the fundamental Christian. 

I'm not sure why this drives you to another source of morality unless your perception of Christ purpose is what is defined as negative.

Probably all incorrect assumption but these are my perceptions of you based on your post. Why does others others inability to read and understand the Bible cause you to pursue a different moral standard? Their inability should not sway your view. 

I like the view C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity In short, if you have never seen light only darkness and you suddenly seen light, how would you know it was light. He perspective was the same with morality. If there was no God how would know there was such a thing as morality. I'll give murder as an example.

If we are as animal like as most in the secular realm state then how have we formulated the view that it is not acceptable to murder someone? Our animal like nature would make murder acceptable as animals do, but we have a moral standard that has been handed to us from a higher power. This one way to know how different we really are from animals. We are either are not a animalistic as many think or we have be instructed otherwise and adopted it into our moral code. 

Sorry. I'll hush. Its kind of my soap box.

Except this biblical dictum (thou shalt not kill/do no harm) are simply a projection of the innate drivers that motivate us not to kill each other which is empathy and altruism. Lack of these leads to a murderous nature. 

 

Read up on Attachment Theory. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

 

Except this biblical dictum (thou shalt not kill/do no harm) are simply a projection of the innate drivers that motivate us not to kill each other which is empathy and altruism. Lack of these leads to a murderous nature. 

 

Read up on Attachment Theory. 

Thou Shalt Not Kill was reserved for kith and kin. If you know anything about the Middle East, then and now, you know they had and have no compunction against killing their enemies. Human beings don't often have ideal circumstances to always express the better angels of their nature. The prime motivator, as with all species, is self preservation and that of the group. Like it it or not, we can't separate people from the influences of their cultural complex.

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Scudbuster

Yea, the bible, it's not a book filled with wild stories and imaginary characters.........naw, couldn't be,....could it?

Bible- One of these Things is not in....jpg

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Doug1029
20 hours ago, simplybill said:

The thing about Christianity is that it actually works in real life; not just personally, but also in society as a whole. Throughout history Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, has achieved the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people.

Please note the "when held accountable to its own principles" caveat.  

I noted it.  The same could be said for any religion, or for that matter, most any "-ism."  It's having to account for your actions before your peers that keeps people honest.  It's embarassment at coming up short, not belief in some afterlife or superspook.

Remember PTL?  It was an acronymn for "Praise the Lord," not "Pay the Lady."  They were Christians.  Fear of divine retribution didn't phase them.  And so it has been for at least 2000 years.

Doug

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simplybill
24 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Remember PTL?  It was an acronymn for "Praise the Lord," not "Pay the Lady."  They were Christians.  Fear of divine retribution didn't phase them.  And so it has been for at least 2000 years.

I think you missed the point. The Bakers definitely were not holding themselves  accountable to Judeo/Christian principles until Jessica Hahn came forward.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Hahn

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simplybill
32 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

The same could be said for any religion, or for that matter, most any "-ism."  It's having to account for your actions before your peers that keeps people honest.  It's embarassment at coming up short, not belief in some afterlife or superspook.

 

20 hours ago, simplybill said:

Throughout history Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, has achieved the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people.

In our modern world, you can easily compare the effects of the various ideologies. One major ideology has a caste system that, although outlawed, still prevents the lower castes from achieving equality. Another major ideology treats nearly half the population (women) as second class citizens, and another ideology demands allegiance to the government Party system. Compare those countries to the countries that, until recently, were predominantly Judeo/Christian in their beliefs. Judeo/Christian ideology led to the greatest amount of justice and freedom for the greatest number of people.

Unfortunately, we’re now in the process of abandoning Judeo/Christian principles. As Richard Dawkins said in 2010:

“I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse.”

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Guyver
21 hours ago, simplybill said:

The thing about Christianity is that it actually works in real life; not just personally, but also in society as a whole.

I disagree with you.  I don't think Christianity works in real life at all.  So, I should ask you to clarify, in what way do you think that Christianity works in real life?

I think Christianity doesn't work for so many people because the bible is so theologically confused and Christianity is based on the bible.  So, when many people begin to study it for themselves and think about it, they find the problems.  That's what happened in my case.  

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Guyver
12 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Unfortunately, we’re now in the process of abandoning Judeo/Christian principles. 

Would you be so kind as to list what you think are the top three Judeo/Christian principles?  I'm all about positive principles and guidelines for living; I totally believe in it.  So, I'm very interested in hearing your response.  

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simplybill
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

 

I think Christianity doesn't work for so many people because the bible is so theologically confused and Christianity is based on the bible.  So, when many people begin to study it for themselves and think about it, they find the problems.  That's what happened in my case.

 

1 minute ago, Guyver said:

Would you be so kind as to list what you think are the top three Judeo/Christian principles?  I'm all about positive principles and guidelines for living; I totally believe in it.  So, I'm very interested in hearing your response.  

Pay attention to our world today, and watch what happens as we abandon Judeo/Christian principles. Other ideologies are rushing in to fill the vacuum. We’ll see the result of our decision as the bulwarks are removed. Richard Dawkins got that one right.

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