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Brandy333

Belief in Angels

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I'mConvinced
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

But you go beyond that to suggest that, if protected by god, i am more lucky than most.

Yes, you are more lucky than most if God talks directly to you.  Most people have never heard directly from the creator and as such are not even sure it exists.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

My point was, that much of any human being's protection, and certainly mine, comes from  living a certain style of life  (in my case one suggested by god) Living that way means little things like you never lose control of your mind to drugs or alcohol. never have a hangover etc., to big things like you never cheat on a wife steal from  a person, commit a crime or hurt anyone, and so never face the consequences faced by so many.

This has nothing to do with God or Angels however.  Living as part of a normal, functioning society requires that you at least try to adhere to these standards if you do not wish to be cast out of said society.  

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

it means youu live prudently and within your means so never face overwhelming debt  And it mean you  live without;  guilt, remorse, fear or anger, or hate, envy, jealousy or lust.  Because that is what god wants of you and because god gives you the abilty to live like that. 

You can live like that without God telling you to do so.  In fact I would be far more impressed if you did it just because it's a good thing to do and not because you've been told to by a higher power. 

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I recognise my privilege and good fortune but i go further than simply recognising it.   Since i was a child i was taught that this creates a duty and responsibility in me which is not there for one lacking my privilege fortune and wealth  Ie to help those less fortunate than myself in every way i can, and as much as i practically can    ive said before i am one of the wealthiest peole on the planet even though in western terms not so much so.

What relevance is this to the conversation? Are you trying to say God speaks to you because of this? That makes no sense given when he started talking to you.  If this isn't about God then why are you bringing it up? 

 

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Mr Walker
12 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

At the age of 14 you are well within the age of reason. Fornication, input thoughts, lust, adultery, and b*****y are all things that are in the bible. So yes god does say things about sexual behavior. There is a significant difference in planning defence and plotting to kill rather than disable someone. You have in past expressed other opinions that indicate that you feel you are justified and beyond reproach. My comment is not out of line and no more stupid than your self righteous rant, are you going to use this form when god asks you about your life? Give him a lecture about what his laws are? Good luck with that.

jmccr8 

Missd this post Appreciate the response.. At 14 i was an atheist secular humanist and while a good person the centre of my life was largely me. 

The BIBLE says things about sexual behaviour  relevant to a society 2-4000 years ago. Today, as one who lives with god,  I am not a biblical literalist, nor do i find the bible the only word of god.  God goes far beyond Christianity and extends to all people on earth 

 God never has said such things to me about sexual behaviours. Indeed his response was as given to me and repeated in my post.   Love commitment and ensuring no one is hurt  These are important in all things including sex. I think you are trying to impose some religious precepts (maybe fundamentalist biblical christian)  on me to fit who or what you think I am. 

You do what you think is needed to protect your life or that of another innocent from a person, who has come into your home with intent to do harm and who is ready to hurt or kill you. I will do as i see fit and proper.  I didn't see how your response made any connection to my post  I still don't see it. You have made numerous incorrect assumptions, but at least now i can follow your line of reasoning based on those assumptions.

If you do right  then you are justified and  will be judged accordingly .  I follow gods laws as outlined for me by him.

Those laws are made because he loves me and are for my own protection, freedom from harmful consequences, and empowerment I already live as god asks me to, albeit not perfectly  God knows and understands both my effort and my imperfections   I've reread the post  and i cant see any rant,  let alone  a self righteous one  I certainly cant see how your response is relevant to anything i wrote  

my post and your response

I gave a detailed response to all these points and the computer crashed while i was trying to save, before doing the last 2 points    :( 

I am not going to spend another hour reposting  You believe as you must and based on your own life experiences.

I can really only say you are wrong in many respects based on my own 45 years relationship with god 

You seem to see me as privileged or fortunate, and in a way I am, but largely this is  because i lived my life as i have lived it  And i lived it that way due to the effect of living with god every day . A person who is ethical, moral, honourable, honest etc in all things will generally have a better quality of life than one who is not, especially  in small communities where such things are still recognised and responded to Apart from  natural things i have never suffered hurt from  others or from  the effects of guilt envy greed anger hatred etc Ive been close to all my family all my life, had one wife who has remained loving and loyal, as i am to her for about 45 years  Had one great job  Never been in trouble with the law dont drink smoke or do drugs Eat healthily    All of that is BECAUSE i have behaved and thought in a certain way in my life, ALL my life since coming to know god , and i have reaped the positive consequences of living that way      .   

You also need to differentiate between physical reality and voices in your head.  We all have voices in our heads, including our conscience  The voice of god is entirely different. But also, god does not just manifest as a voice The voice can be used to teach or warn but it is the spirit and the physical power of god which has the greatest effect. 

While powerful, your mind cannot protect you from  physical dangers Only something physical can do this  (although admittedly a powerful belief can help, because of the effect mind has on body ) 

Your response

Other than fantasizing about three boobed alien women and plotting to kill an intruder but then maybe that is okay with god.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

Yes, you are more lucky than most if God talks directly to you.  Most people have never heard directly from the creator and as such are not even sure it exists.

This has nothing to do with God or Angels however.  Living as part of a normal, functioning society requires that you at least try to adhere to these standards if you do not wish to be cast out of said society.  

You can live like that without God telling you to do so.  In fact I would be far more impressed if you did it just because it's a good thing to do and not because you've been told to by a higher power

What relevance is this to the conversation? Are you trying to say God speaks to you because of this? That makes no sense given when he started talking to you.  If this isn't about God then why are you bringing it up? 

 

Quote

Yes, you are more lucky than most if God talks directly to you.  Most people have never heard directly from the creator and as such are not even sure it exists.

It depends on what you consider lucky and  what the consequences of such a lifetime contact are.  it has its benefits but it also has great responsibilities and duties and means you  must live as god directs, not as you once chose to. 

Quote

This has nothing to do with God or Angels however.  Living as part of a normal, functioning society requires that you at least try to adhere to these standards if you do not wish to be cast out of said society.  

Actually not so in the modern age.  A person must construct a set of ethics and moralities. To live by those requires both motivation and self discipline Belief or physical contact with god can provide incentives for both  motivation and self discipline, which would not other wise exist This is probably why believers have such better health and longevity outcomes compared with a similar cohort of non believers  Knowing or believing that a loving protective entity watches over you also helps with psychological, and thus physiological outcomes. So a belief or faith can not only set the standards by which you live, but internalise them as motivational drivers of behaviour,  to such a powerful extent that you live by them for a lifetime, thus producing great benefits to yourself I simply  cannot even contemplate ever cheating on my wife, for example,  no matter what temptations or difficulties arose in my life  I just could not, either, ever do anything to hurt her  due to internalised ethics drivers beliefs and motivations. . 

Quote

 You can live like that without God telling you to do so.  In fact I would be far more impressed if you did it just because it's a good thing to do and not because you've been told to by a higher power

If this were true then we would observe it in people but the opposite is true Without some internalised motivational belief, people do not maintain good behaviours and habits over their lives.

  A lot of me comes from  the self discipline and secular humanist principles installed  by my parents But walking with god each day and knowing he is inside me, and alongside me, helps. It is like having a buddy or big brother.   When i harm myself  i harm him when i harm another, i harm myself and him. 

  It does not mean that an atheist cannot adopt good ethics and moralities, or cannot develop the self discipline required to live constantly  by those ethical standards But It is harder for an atheist (and so yes i agree.  I have a great admiration for non believers who consistently live ethical moral lives. My father was such a person ) 

Quote

What relevance is this to the conversation? Are you trying to say God speaks to you because of this? That makes no sense given when he started talking to you.  If this isn't about God then why are you bringing it up?

You questioned if i recognised my luck and privileged position I responded that not only do i recognise it, but i appreciate the duty and responsibility it imposes on mE. yes this was taught to me as an atheist by my mother and father God speaks withme BECAUSE i can do so much  A poor person can do little to help others and thus is not required to do much The richer you are the greater duty you have to all. 

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jmccr8
58 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Missd this post Appreciate the response.. At 14 i was an atheist secular humanist and while a good person the centre of my life was largely me. 

The BIBLE says things about sexual behaviour  relevant to a society 2-4000 years ago. Today, as one who lives with god,  I am not a biblical literalist, nor do i find the bible the only word of god.  God goes far beyond Christianity and extends to all people on earth 

 God never has said such things to me about sexual behaviours. Indeed his response was as given to me and repeated in my post.   Love commitment and ensuring no one is hurt  These are important in all things including sex. I think you are trying to impose some religious precepts (maybe fundamentalist biblical christian)  on me to fit who or what you think I am. 

You do what you think is needed to protect your life or that of another innocent from a person, who has come into your home with intent to do harm and who is ready to hurt or kill you. I will do as i see fit and proper.  I didn't see how your response made any connection to my post  I still don't see it. You have made numerous incorrect assumptions, but at least now i can follow your line of reasoning based on those assumptions.

If you do right  then you are justified and  will be judged accordingly .  I follow gods laws as outlined for me by him.

Those laws are made because he loves me and are for my own protection, freedom from harmful consequences, and empowerment I already live as god asks me to, albeit not perfectly  God knows and understands both my effort and my imperfections   I've reread the post  and i cant see any rant,  let alone  a self righteous one  I certainly cant see how your response is relevant to anything i wrote  

my post and your response

I gave a detailed response to all these points and the computer crashed while i was trying to save, before doing the last 2 points    :( 

I am not going to spend another hour reposting  You believe as you must and based on your own life experiences.

I can really only say you are wrong in many respects based on my own 45 years relationship with god 

You seem to see me as privileged or fortunate, and in a way I am, but largely this is  because i lived my life as i have lived it  And i lived it that way due to the effect of living with god every day . A person who is ethical, moral, honourable, honest etc in all things will generally have a better quality of life than one who is not, especially  in small communities where such things are still recognised and responded to Apart from  natural things i have never suffered hurt from  others or from  the effects of guilt envy greed anger hatred etc Ive been close to all my family all my life, had one wife who has remained loving and loyal, as i am to her for about 45 years  Had one great job  Never been in trouble with the law dont drink smoke or do drugs Eat healthily    All of that is BECAUSE i have behaved and thought in a certain way in my life, ALL my life since coming to know god , and i have reaped the positive consequences of living that way      .   

You also need to differentiate between physical reality and voices in your head.  We all have voices in our heads, including our conscience  The voice of god is entirely different. But also, god does not just manifest as a voice The voice can be used to teach or warn but it is the spirit and the physical power of god which has the greatest effect. 

While powerful, your mind cannot protect you from  physical dangers Only something physical can do this  (although admittedly a powerful belief can help, because of the effect mind has on body ) 

Your response

Other than fantasizing about three boobed alien women and plotting to kill an intruder but then maybe that is okay with god.

Hi Walker

If your read your fourth paragraph where you are saying moral, ethical, honorable and honest and then a few sentences later listing more of your virtues it what gave rise to my post. If you look at them there it is a reasonable comment on my part. Where is the honor or honesty wjen you plot to kill a person whether they are armed or not and the conspire to hide your intent and give false statements?

I know that these are minor infraction.s in your mind but still felt that it should be questioned.

I had 3 break and enters and 2 home invasions in one year, the first time there were three of them and one of me. I'm not sure if seeing me in my boxers scared them or if it was the yell WTF  and the machette that had the scrambling out the door but the was no plan on my part and no one got hurt.

The second time there was two lads in their 20s that waited till I came home half cut from a wedding. They had bummed a couple of cigarettes of of me when I was on my way to the reception and waited till I got back thinking that I would be easy pickings. Hum oh well that didn't work out so well for them. I had busted the concŕete out of the basement floor to lay new pipe and a new floor so there were no stairs into the basememt and the ladder was in the garage. I was in the living room when they came in through the kitchen and demanded my wallet and keys as they thought they would take my wheels too. I walked towards them and said you want my keys and wallet a couple of times as I walked towards them then tossed them into the basement and told them you want them go get them.

They looked at me then looked in the hole then at me then at each other and left because they realized that they walked into the wrong home. Once again no plan nobody got hurt and those are just a couple of instance of many. When people tell me that they have to cook up elaborate schemes I tend to think that they lack the skill, confidence and ability to take care of themselves.

You said that you have been in touch with the cosmic consciousness science you were 12 and highly disciplined at an early age but didn't actually have physical contact with your god/angel/alien till you quit smoking in your early 20s but were at all times in control and aware. Did you only fantasize about you alien girl once and never of any of the girls that you knew? Those fantasies are lust and you are commiting acts in your mind about real people. God does speak of these types of thoughts in the bible, the one you do/don't adhere to so if you use parts of the bible or defend it in other arguments it becomes an active part of discussion of your acts and thoughts by others in the discussion.

What I think is that if you put yourself in as position then it is fair and reasonable to question you as this is a discussion forum.

jmccr8 

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

If your read your fourth paragraph where you are saying moral, ethical, honorable and honest and then a few sentences later listing more of your virtues it what gave rise to my post. If you look at them there it is a reasonable comment on my part. Where is the honor or honesty wjen you plot to kill a person whether they are armed or not and the conspire to hide your intent and give false statements?

I know that these are minor infraction.s in your mind but still felt that it should be questioned.

I had 3 break and enters and 2 home invasions in one year, the first time there were three of them and one of me. I'm not sure if seeing me in my boxers scared them or if it was the yell WTF  and the machette that had the scrambling out the door but the was no plan on my part and no one got hurt.

The second time there was two lads in their 20s that waited till I came home half cut from a wedding. They had bummed a couple of cigarettes of of me when I was on my way to the reception and waited till I got back thinking that I would be easy pickings. Hum oh well that didn't work out so well for them. I had busted the concŕete out of the basement floor to lay new pipe and a new floor so there were no stairs into the basememt and the ladder was in the garage. I was in the living room when they came in through the kitchen and demanded my wallet and keys as they thought they would take my wheels too. I walked towards them and said you want my keys and wallet a couple of times as I walked towards them then tossed them into the basement and told them you want them go get them.

They looked at me then looked in the hole then at me then at each other and left because they realized that they walked into the wrong home. Once again no plan nobody got hurt and those are just a couple of instance of many. When people tell me that they have to cook up elaborate schemes I tend to think that they lack the skill, confidence and ability to take care of themselves.

You said that you have been in touch with the cosmic consciousness science you were 12 and highly disciplined at an early age but didn't actually have physical contact with your god/angel/alien till you quit smoking in your early 20s but were at all times in control and aware. Did you only fantasize about you alien girl once and never of any of the girls that you knew? Those fantasies are lust and you are commiting acts in your mind about real people. God does speak of these types of thoughts in the bible, the one you do/don't adhere to so if you use parts of the bible or defend it in other arguments it becomes an active part of discussion of your acts and thoughts by others in the discussion.

What I think is that if you put yourself in as position then it is fair and reasonable to question you as this is a discussion forum.

jmccr8 

Once again, an  hours work, a thousand words,  and one "snap"  while trying to save and lost the lot . :(   I appreciate your post.  But you are not me, and you don't know me well enough to judge me, especially as you are using criteria you have made up about me.  

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jmccr8
16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Once again, an  hours work, a thousand words,  and one "snap"  while trying to save and lost the lot . :(   I appreciate your post.  But you are not me, and you don't know me well enough to judge me, especially as you are using criteria you have made up about me.  

Hey Walker 

I didn't judge you I did give a reasoned rebuttal.:D 

Yeah I know how that goes losing a post for some reason only at this forum when I am typing on my laptop and hit the enter bar to shift and sign my name proof It's gone and there are times I have written  the same post three times before I actually post it

jmccr8 

Edited by jmccr8
Disappearing word trick
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I'mConvinced
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If this were true then we would observe it in people but the opposite is true Without some internalised motivational belief, people do not maintain good behaviours and habits over their lives.

Absolute nonsense.  Please produce some evidence to back up this statement.  Your data regarding this, like most things, is outdated and recent evidence shows you to be wrong:

http://theconversation.com/are-religious-people-more-moral-84560

 

Quote

 

Do people practice what they preach?

Social scientific research on the topic offers some intriguing results.

When researchers ask people to report on their own behaviors and attitudes, religious individuals claim to be more altruistic, compassionate, honest, civic and charitable than nonreligious ones. Even among twins, more religious siblings describe themselves are being more generous.

But when we look at actual behavior, these differences are nowhere to be found.

Researchers have now looked at multiple aspects of moral conduct, from charitable giving and cheating in exams to helping strangers in need and cooperating with anonymous others.

In a classical experiment known as the “Good Samaritan Study,” researchers monitored who would stop to help an injured person lying in an alley. They found that religiosity played no role in helping behavior, even when participants were on their way to deliver a talk on the parable of the good Samaritan.

This finding has now been confirmed in numerous laboratory and field studies. Overall, the results are clear: No matter how we define morality, religious people do not behave more morally than atheists, although they often say (and likely believe) that they do.

 

 

The reason religious people are no more moral that anyone else is that morals are an inbuilt requirement for conscious social animals and NOT a religious construct.  We could not live in an organised society without some basic morals being inbuilt but you can't seem to accept this.  You remind me of Will Due in another thread telling me I must be 'trying to shirk all my responsibilities' just because I don't need a God to tell me how to act.  It's pretty pathetic and I'm not even the atheist people think I am.

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hey Walker 

I didn't judge you I did give a reasoned rebuttal.:D 

Yeah I know how that goes losing a post for some reason only at this forum when I am typing on my laptop and hit the enter bar to shift and sign my name proof It's gone and there are times I have written  the same post three times before I actually post it

jmccr8 

Makes  me realise that words are just words and until someone hears them, the y might as well not be spoken.  :) 

 

Where is the honor or honesty wjen you plot to kill a person whether they are armed or not and the conspire to hide your intent and give false statements?

When people tell me that they have to cook up elaborate schemes I tend to think that they lack the skill, confidence and ability to take care of themselves.

Those fantasies are lust and you are commiting acts in your mind about real people. 

Maybe you honestly do not think so, but the three statements above (all made in your last post)  sound to me like judgements about 

my honesty

my confidence and skills

my sexual  fantasies

You might even be right, but they are still judgements, using your own values beliefs and ethics,  rather than allowing for my own.

 As it happens I never had visual fantasies,  so i never lusted for real people in that way (and i would agree that this is a harmful act  making a real woman an object, rather  than a person, in my mind )  I knew that even as a teenager so no, my fantasies were confined to my dreams.  In dreams you are free to construct any scenarios you like, BECAUSE they are dreams  The people in them are not real, but constructs of your imagination.  It would still be wrong to deliberately hurt a  woman in  a dream, but of course there is no need to, as you construct them to be not just willing but eager.   I don't hurt people or kill the innocent in my dreams either.

There is quite a lot of killing in some, but always me protecting my country from invaders or other innocent beings from evil   

 

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Makes  me realise that words are just words and until someone hears them, the y might as well not be spoken.  :) 

 

Where is the honor or honesty wjen you plot to kill a person whether they are armed or not and the conspire to hide your intent and give false statements?

When people tell me that they have to cook up elaborate schemes I tend to think that they lack the skill, confidence and ability to take care of themselves.

Those fantasies are lust and you are commiting acts in your mind about real people. 

Maybe you honestly do not think so, but the three statements above (all made in your last post)  sound to me like judgements about 

my honesty

my confidence and skills

my sexual  fantasies

You might even be right, but they are still judgements, using your own values beliefs and ethics,  rather than allowing for my own.

 As it happens I never had visual fantasies,  so i never lusted for real people in that way (and i would agree that this is a harmful act  making a real woman an object, rather  than a person, in my mind )  I knew that even as a teenager so no, my fantasies were confined to my dreams.  In dreams you are free to construct any scenarios you like, BECAUSE they are dreams  The people in them are not real, but constructs of your imagination.  It would still be wrong to deliberately hurt a  woman in  a dream, but of course there is no need to, as you construct them to be not just willing but eager.   I don't hurt people or kill the innocent in my dreams either.

There is quite a lot of killing in some, but always me protecting my country from invaders or other innocent beings from evil   

 

Hi Walker

Thanks for your response, I was raised in the Catholic school system so the position that I am discussing this is from the position that was taught to me by nuns and priests that gave their interpretation of the bible. As I said this is not about me judging you and sorry if it feels that way with you.

Visual construct are based on real people or objects and circumstances. When I visualize it is based on principals of what is known or experience and my visualizations are about things I build or am planning to build. I seldom dream and when I do I am aware and actively thinking and controlling them although I do not set up the founding scenario of the dream. So There may be differences in what you and I experience in dreaming.

I am not psycho analizing you but dreams involving people are based on compositions of people we know in our daily lives so when people dream of historical or fictitious characters the qualities imposed are based on people known to the dreamer. The same could be said about how one sees themselves in a dream and adds qualities to themselves that are inspired by other people but do not physically possess themselves.

I hope that this clears up what I am saying to you for you.

jmccr8 

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Sherapy
On 2/16/2018 at 3:09 AM, Mr Walker said:

Makes  me realise that words are just words and until someone hears them, the y might as well not be spoken.  :) 

 

Where is the honor or honesty wjen you plot to kill a person whether they are armed or not and the conspire to hide your intent and give false statements?

When people tell me that they have to cook up elaborate schemes I tend to think that they lack the skill, confidence and ability to take care of themselves.

Those fantasies are lust and you are commiting acts in your mind about real people. 

Maybe you honestly do not think so, but the three statements above (all made in your last post)  sound to me like judgements about 

my honesty

my confidence and skills

my sexual  fantasies

You might even be right, but they are still judgements, using your own values beliefs and ethics,  rather than allowing for my own.

 As it happens I never had visual fantasies,  so i never lusted for real people in that way (and i would agree that this is a harmful act  making a real woman an object, rather  than a person, in my mind )  I knew that even as a teenager so no, my fantasies were confined to my dreams.  In dreams you are free to construct any scenarios you like, BECAUSE they are dreams  The people in them are not real, but constructs of your imagination.  It would still be wrong to deliberately hurt a  woman in  a dream, but of course there is no need to, as you construct them to be not just willing but eager.   I don't hurt people or kill the innocent in my dreams either.

There is quite a lot of killing in some, but always me protecting my country from invaders or other innocent beings from evil   

 

Interesting, I didn't take J's questions as judging you, I see a great point, another perspective, he even gives examples of how one can end bad situations without anyone getting hurt. He points out how he uses circumstance and environment to help him. I think he is an astounding critical thinker. 

 

I think it is a good question, he is asking where is the honor ( respect worthy action) or honesty ( action that is guided by integrity) when you publically state your pre-plan ( involving you and the misses) an agreement that you will shoot to kill the intruder and lie to the police. 

I think it is a fair assessment to conclude ( in this scenario) that possibly your confidence and skills need work that could easily be refined,

or that you are judging yourself, you are always on the defense have you noticed this?

Except for you, no poster has ever had a need to share sexual fantasies on a public forum. 

IMHO! Contextually, It is inapproriate, if this was a forum denoted for this that would be one thing, but it isn't and it would be fair and reasonable for me, to conclude that your understanding of social boundaries is In need of refinement. 

I don't think you are an awful person, I am not impressed with your God though,  I understand you are conditioned to undergird god in your life.  For me, I don't see any evidence to include your god on my path, practically speaking, unless one needs to be subjugated, which I don't, therefore, for me, there isn't anything viable being offered from your experience this round. 

Based on your posts, I don't see evidence that your god is all that on the ball. He didn't warn you of your heart condition, he didn't warn you of a fire that would leave you destitute, it sounds like he didn't get involved. 

With that being said, I want to add if this serves you and it sounds like it does as you say that you are happy, in the end that is all that matters, because many paths lead to happiness. 

Thanks for sharing how yours does for you. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Essan

Belief in God may make it easier for some to lead ethical "good" lives, but it also makes it easier for some to lead unethical "bad" lives - the Spanish Inquistion/witchfinding etc being an example.   They can justify their attrocities because it is the will of God.

So it works both ways.

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Sherapy
6 minutes ago, Essan said:

Belief in God may make it easier for some to lead ethical "good" lives, but it also makes it easier for some to lead unethical "bad" lives - the Spanish Inquistion/witchfinding etc being an example.   They can justify their attrocities because it is the will of God.

So it works both ways.

I do think that some posters needed the structure the biblical god provides and have used it to better themselves. 

And, I agree, for others it seems to offer a loop hole to justify horrible behaviors. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

If one is determined to do ill, any excuse will serve--if one even needs one.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Essan said:

Belief in God may make it easier for some to lead ethical "good" lives, but it also makes it easier for some to lead unethical "bad" lives - the Spanish Inquistion/witchfinding etc being an example.   They can justify their attrocities because it is the will of God.

So it works both ways.

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot being examples of the other extreme. Evil is an equal opportunity employer.

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Essan
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot being examples of the other extreme. Evil is an equal opportunity employer.

Indeed.

Evil will do evil.  Whether they believe in a god or not.   And no god ever intervenes.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Essan said:

Indeed.

Evil will do evil.  Whether they believe in a god or not.   And no god ever intervenes.

No, it's a completely natural universe, whether a god created it or not. Man is subject to the whims of nature and to his own nature. It ain't heaven by a long stretch and it's our choice whether or not to turn it into a hell. 

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