+joc Posted January 11, 2018 #26 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said: It has to do with reproduction. They don't want someone elses blood. Perfectly reasonable...the question is: Do the Lions do what they do in an effort to make it safer, and more predictable, for themselves? Is it a conscious and deliberate act on the part of the male lions? Edited January 11, 2018 by joc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 11, 2018 #27 Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 hours ago, joc said: Not true! Male lions seek out and kill Cheetah cubs. Basically, so that they can make it safer, and more predictable, for themselves. It is a conscious and deliberate act on the part of the male lions. That is not conscious or deliberate. It is evolutionary programmed behaviour If the lion was conscious of it's choice, and the results of its decisions. it would have a conscience and know good from evil it would be capable of feeling guilt in it's actions. Humans do respond to evolutionary programming as do all animals but always have a choice, given by our self aware consciousness, and informed free will. We can chose to kill or not kill, be destructive or creative, selfish or altruistic and we KNOW that different outcomes will result from the decisions we make 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 11, 2018 #28 Share Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, joc said: Perfectly reasonable...the question is: Do the Lions do what they do in an effort to make it safer, and more predictable, for themselves? Is it a conscious and deliberate act on the part of the male lions? No. The y simply do not have the cognitive capacity for thoughts like that. They act on genetically programmed responses, built in by evolution, to ensure their survival, and thereby the survival of the genes of the "fittest" animal in the pack to survive A number of primates kill both their rival and all their rival's male offspring when the y take control of a group of females But they aren't thinking, " If i kill off all those young males my line will be ensured for posterity". That is human level thinking 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 11, 2018 #29 Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: No. The y simply do not have the cognitive capacity for thoughts like that. They act on genetically programmed responses, built in by evolution, to ensure their survival, and thereby the survival of the genes of the "fittest" animal in the pack to survive A number of primates kill both their rival and all their rival's male offspring when the y take control of a group of females But they aren't thinking, " If i kill off all those young males my line will be ensured for posterity". That is human level thinking Then actually what you originally meant was that only humans are human. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 12, 2018 #30 Share Posted January 12, 2018 28 minutes ago, joc said: Then actually what you originally meant was that only humans are human. No I meant what i originally said The reason for this truth, however, is that humans are the only ones capable of certain things, because the y are the only animals, currently, with evolved, advanced conscious self awareness, which enables those things. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 12, 2018 #31 Share Posted January 12, 2018 On 1/10/2018 at 2:30 PM, Mr Walker said: Humans do more than control their own lives, though. They control elements of the universe. At the moment, only small local elements of the universe, mostly confined to earth, but given time and technology /knowledge, control of the "whole" universe is theoretically possible Use fire to burn something like a tree, or kill an animal, and you are reshaping, controlling, and affecting your universe irreversibly. And, being human, you are doing it with deliberate conscious intent, so there is an exercise of conscious control, unlike with other animals or natural forces. Split an atom and you definitely are exerting conscious control over the universe. Remove a mountain for iron ore or an asteroid for the same product and you are exerting control over the universe, through will and action. The best example i can give, in line with your example of flow is that, in general water always flows down hill, naturally. Humans however control this flow,and utilise it This includes making waiter flow up hill When you say, : it is not ours to control," are you meaning we don't have the abilty to control it, or the right to control it? They are two very different arguments. I never said 'it is not ours to control' ...maybe someone else did. We do not however have the ability to control the Universe. Spitting an atom changes the Universe? The Universe is more than a few atoms...you have changed nothing...Did the Earth stop rotating...did the Galaxies all collapse? By that definition, if you pick up a flat stone and skip it across the water...you have changed the Universe. That isn't what I'm talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 12, 2018 #32 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, joc said: I never said 'it is not ours to control' ...maybe someone else did. We do not however have the ability to control the Universe. Spitting an atom changes the Universe? The Universe is more than a few atoms...you have changed nothing...Did the Earth stop rotating...did the Galaxies all collapse? By that definition, if you pick up a flat stone and skip it across the water...you have changed the Universe. That isn't what I'm talking about. You said this "Controlling one's own self is not controlling the Universe...it is more in line with Flowing with the Universe. That Flow is it's own...it is not ours to control." if i misunderstood your meaning, I apologise but it seemed pretty clear to me. I disagree. We are already controlling the flow of the universe on earth. Eventually, and ultimately, we might even be able to reverse the effects of entropy and alter the destiny of the universe Yes burning one tree or splitting one atom, which would not have occurred without deliberate human intent, is manipulating, controlling, and shaping the universe (only a small part of the universe as i also said) When you mine ore to make a single sword or ploughshare you have taken control of a part of the universe and altered its natural form and future direction. However, humans have the intent and increasingly the technology to shape manipulate and control more and more of the universe. In a century or two we will be controlling all the solar output of our sun for our own purpose. In that period we will be removing and mining asteroids and terraforming the moons of other planets, and mars, for human life We will have restored many lost animals and plant species on earth, and have restored much of the natural human ecosystem. In a millennia we will be in other star systems, manipulating the energy output of other suns to create wormholes for space transport across the galaxy, shaping and terraforming many planets, around many suns We will be creating goods by manipulating energy and matter to create food clothing houses etc from templates and energy. And we will be genetically manipulating ourselves and many other species . One does not have to change an entire universe, nor even a large segment of it, to demonstrate the capacity to change it. Once you show the will/intent, and abilty, to choose to change even one small part of the natural order, you are manipulating and taking control of the natural universe; eliminating diseases, maybe creating almost immortal lifespans, changing whole planets and suns. Once started there is no theoretical nor practical limits to what a race like humans might achieve over a period of time.. The other alternative, of course, is that our cleverness will kill us off, or send us back into primitives, who no longer have access to easily accessible resources with which to rebuild civilisation. But at least we have a choice, and we will decide our destiny. Think about this. Humans only invented writing about 5000 years ago. Our first large settlements were 12000 years ago, Think about where we are today, compared with our technology 100 years ago, then think forward 100 years, 1000 and another 10000 years. The potential for humanity is basically unlimited. We can extrapolate and analyse the probable future of technological development out for a hundred years, with some accuracy; but 1000 years, let alone 10000 ? Impossible. However the difference will be as great a s between life today, with life 10000 years ago (at a minimum) Edited January 12, 2018 by Mr Walker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khol Posted January 12, 2018 #33 Share Posted January 12, 2018 On 10/01/2018 at 7:23 AM, and then said: ^ This. I do believe in the God of the Bible, yet I'm not dogmatic about the total accuracy of the books themselves. To state unequivocally that there can be no Creator appears arrogant to me. At best one can only say they have seen no proof they are willing to accept of the Creator. Dress it up with all the science they like, it just gets down to a desire to be their own god, make their own way and refuse to listen to anything that might be higher than they. I'm not sure why they even bother to obfuscate. They should just own it. Those who are willing to do so, I truly respect. Fine Dont respond to my question. I expected as much. "Desire to be there own god " ...what a joke .Im offended by your remarks and laugh at your pitiful logic. We can leave it at that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostrodumbass Posted January 12, 2018 #34 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) On 1/10/2018 at 5:40 AM, INeedAnswersPLZ said: I'm not christian but I believe in god, usually when I pray and thank god and ask for things he will provide which is why I believe in him but I started thinking what If there isn't a god but instead an almighty force that we can control but just don't know how to. What I am trying to say is everyone has the power of atom manipulation the only problem is that we don't know know how to control it. When we are desperate we go to god but what if our desperation is what allows us to activate atom manipulation which is why what we want comes true. I doubt that god or the almighty force would allow anybody to just manipulate matter how they see fit. Instead of saving someone I would probably manipulate atoms into a Ferrari for myself for example. The universe would become chaotic. I think we would do well not to confuse our own power with that of a god. Even if your prayers get answered it may be because of coincidence or if you believe, the power of God (not your own). God is then doing the manipulating. From biblical reference the son of god and his apostles were granted authority to perform miracles, I doubt the power came from themselves. Even the miracles were for the will of God, not their own. Edited January 12, 2018 by Nostrodumbass 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 12, 2018 #35 Share Posted January 12, 2018 10 hours ago, joc said: Perfectly reasonable...the question is: Do the Lions do what they do in an effort to make it safer, and more predictable, for themselves? Is it a conscious and deliberate act on the part of the male lions? They do it to bring the mother of the cubs back on heat, so they can seed their bloodline.Its about havn their bloodline reproduced thats it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 16, 2018 #36 Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 10/01/2018 at 1:40 PM, INeedAnswersPLZ said: I'm not christian but I believe in god, usually when I pray and thank god and ask for things he will provide which is why I believe in him but I started thinking what If there isn't a god but instead an almighty force that we can control but just don't know how to. What I am trying to say is everyone has the power of atom manipulation the only problem is that we don't know know how to control it. When we are desperate we go to god but what if our desperation is what allows us to activate atom manipulation which is why what we want comes true. Where the hell is my Ferrari then. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 16, 2018 #37 Share Posted January 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, psyche101 said: Where the hell is my Ferrari then. Ive got it...haha 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 16, 2018 #38 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, Hre2breal said: Ive got it...haha Would have been more efficient to will it yourself than cross the planet to steal mine Must have cost you a fortune in freight and conversions to left hand drive That's not much of a miracle! Too expensive! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 16, 2018 #39 Share Posted January 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, psyche101 said: Would have been more efficient to will it yourself than cross the planet to steal mine Must have cost you a fortune in freight and conversions to left hand drive That's not much of a miracle! Too expensive! No not really I have friends in high places... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 17, 2018 #40 Share Posted January 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, Hre2breal said: No not really I have friends in high places... Not higher than my Unicorn. Of that much I am sure. Unicorns are the ultimate power. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy333 Posted January 17, 2018 #41 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) You ask if God is real, and in my belief He is very real. He is the Almighty Force of creation. So there is no almighty force that we can manipulate with our minds to get what we want when we want it. Edited January 17, 2018 by Brandy333 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 17, 2018 #42 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Brandy333 said: You ask if God is real, and in my belief He is very real. The only place God actually exists is in belief and that seems very real to the beholder Psychos who act on voices in their heads act out the most disgusting crimes because they heard voices that are very real to them. Those voices are not real either. To those who want a god, they will have one despite any rational approach we have after all created over a thousand such concepts just in written history Not surprising that people keep inventing them considering this. Sad that so many are stuck in this circular rut. 1 minute ago, Brandy333 said: However, He is not as you question a Being in which we can manipulate with our minds to get what we want when we want it. OPs idea that one. One tends to lead to the other. No reason not to have a little lighthearted banter about it when it is such an unrealistic concept, even religions say God and prayer does not work like that. It's a no brainer really. Nothing supports that ideal. It's more like the Hippies who ask the universe for things and expect them to appear. 1 minute ago, Brandy333 said: Where did you ever get such an idea, to think we are above Him? We created him, not the other way around 1 minute ago, Brandy333 said: You need to speak with someone like Preacher or Priest who can teach you about God. LOL been there done that. I was brought up quite devout. Too me until my late 30s before I started catching on. Religion is what makes atheism attractive to an active mind. Religions and God concepts are outdated in the face of modern knowledge. We have better knowledge these days. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 17, 2018 #43 Share Posted January 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, psyche101 said: Not higher than my Unicorn. Of that much I am sure. Unicorns are the ultimate power. Any proof of that?? Im sure they dont exsist..figments of a wild imagination prehaps... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 17, 2018 #44 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Hre2breal said: Any proof of that?? Im sure they dont exsist..figments of a wild imagination prehaps... My Unicorn lives on the dark side of the moon in a deep crater because she gets her magical powers from moon moss Prove she does not exist. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 17, 2018 #45 Share Posted January 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, Brandy333 said: You ask if God is real, and in my belief He is very real. He is the Almighty Force of creation. So there is no almighty force that we can manipulate with our minds to get what we want when we want it. All that will get you what you want is hard work and determination And sometimes even that's not enough 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 17, 2018 #46 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Just now, psyche101 said: My Unicorn lives on the dark side of the moon in a deep crater because she gets her magical powers from moon moss Prove she does not exist. But you havent proved she does... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 17, 2018 #47 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, psyche101 said: My Unicorn lives on the dark side of the moon in a deep crater because she gets her magical powers from moon moss Prove she does not exist. Beautiul story though..I like it.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 17, 2018 #48 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Just now, Hre2breal said: But you havent proved she does... She gave me the ferrari you stole Check the pedals for hoof marks. They are there. Why do I have to prove she does, isn't my word and her miracles enough proof? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted January 17, 2018 #49 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Hre2breal said: Beautiul story though..I like it.. Not as beautiful as she is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hre2breal Posted January 17, 2018 #50 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 minute ago, psyche101 said: She gave me the ferrari you stole Check the pedals for hoof marks. They are there. Why do I have to prove she does, isn't my word and her miracles enough proof? No its not.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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