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Perdurabo

Would you say that you have free-will ?

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Perdurabo

Would you say that you have free-will? By which I mean the sovereign right and ability to make decisions free from compulsion by outside sources.

Or would you say that you are a  robot? That free-will is an illusion and all of your choices are determined by your biology, your history and your mental programming.

Here’s a little experiment. Touch each of the fingers on your left hand to the thumb of that same hand in order from the pinky to the index finger. Do it now before reading any further.

Okay, did you follow my instructions or did you just keep reading? Either way, you made a decision and your reality went in a direction of your own choosing.

Right?

If you are a curious person who is open to learning and is willing to temporarily subordinate your own will to that of another in order to gain knowledge, you probably followed my instructions physically. On the other hand, if you are an independent-minded person who prefers to gloss over detail because you are confident in your ability to absorb a thing more holistically,  you probably kept on reading.

For simplicity’s sake, lets assume that you fit into one of these two profiles, okay?

Now, who made the decision that you would become that sort of person? Did you ever choose to develop those traits? Or is that just the way you are?


Two different people encounter an insect in their home. One picks it up and takes it outside. The other crushes it under their shoe. Neither of them spends any time thinking about what they do. They are like computers reacting to situations in a programmed manner. They will to not have the insect in their environment. They both take action to manifest that will. One of them has a compassionate nature who imagines that small creatures have some type of value. The other one values expedience and feels no empathy for the insect. It is an object to be eliminated.

Is either person exhibiting free-will?

Or are they merely following mental programming? If so, who programmed (taught) them to be this way? Who taught their teachers?


You selflessly do charitable works. Help everyone you can. Try to make the world a better place for all. Does it make you happy to do so? Yes?

Well, aren’t you just being selfish then? The actual goal is to make yourself feel happy. If you were truly compassionate, you would help everyone you could even to the point of great personal loss, pain and suffering. If suffering for God, King and Country makes you happy, then you will not feel like you are suffering at all. In fact, you will only do it because it is (secretly?) your desire. Thus, you are still being (impressively!) selfish.

Is there more virtue in the person who is unapologetically and honestly being selfish? LaVey-style “satanism” is built upon this very premise. Satanism? Scary stuff? Actually not. Most satanists are Judeo-Christian atheists. Mostly good people who can smell a rat but aren’t yet sure where it is.

Let’s imagine what the world would become if we each declared and vowed to only live for ourselves. To only do the things that make us feel happy and fulfilled. Would we all begin to steal each other’s stuff? Would we all kill the people who tried to take our stuff? Rape and pillage? Survival of the most evil and ruthless? Complete anarchy?

Would that really be the result of our collective Will?

Does that world sound like a place you would will to live in? Of course not. What do we truly will? What really makes us happy to the point that we would selfishly seek it out?

Well first of all, love. To care and be cared for by special people who are close to us. Warm beds. Good food. Decent beer. Protection from violent idiots. Help from others if we become sick or our house catches fire. Cool toys.

In other words, modern society.

That is where being totally selfish gets us.

So we do have free-will whether we want it or not.

Right?

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XenoFish

You have freedom of choice till those choices become habit.

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RoofGardener

I have absolute free will ! I make sovereign decisions free from compulsion from outside sources.

Umm... if that's OK with the rest of you ? :unsure:

 

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Liquid Gardens
5 hours ago, Perdurabo said:

Two different people encounter an insect in their home. One picks it up and takes it outside. The other crushes it under their shoe. Neither of them spends any time thinking about what they do. They are like computers reacting to situations in a programmed manner. They will to not have the insect in their environment. They both take action to manifest that will. One of them has a compassionate nature who imagines that small creatures have some type of value. The other one values expedience and feels no empathy for the insect. It is an object to be eliminated.

Is either person exhibiting free-will?

Or are they merely following mental programming?

The main issue is that it doesn't appear we'll ever be able to distinguish between your last 2 questions.  To go to the flip side of your example, 2 amoebas sense some food in their environment.  One of them moves to the food an envelopes/consumes it, the other passes it by.  Did they also both take actions to manifest their will, is either amoeba exhibiting free will or just programming?  If it's just programming, which makes sense to me, then why would we think we're different?  A lot of the world we live in sure seems to be essentially deterministic, and whether the only thing I'm aware of that is possibly indeterminate, the quantum world, is ultimately indeterminate is still (ha) undetermined.  So what part of our brain is enabling this break from the determinism that seems to govern most everything else?

Edited by Liquid Gardens
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I'mConvinced

Free will only exists within the confines of your biological and environmental limits.  Most, if not all, of your 'choices' are actually made for you based on your brains interpretation of signals received both internally and externally.  Some people simply cannot make choices at all:

 

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Opus Magnus

If Jesus didn't say his advice on quickly agreeing with adversaries in your way, then the fingers wouldn't have been counted on the left hand. But, killing bugs has always been avoided, rather letting them out. Even more now though, with the laws of cleanliness from Moses. Killing an insect causes a whole bad day and might cost lots of money.

But, it seems to me a question of predestination vs. free will. They seem to contradict, but focusing on just free will is sometimes neccessary. Stars lining up, is it just a movement propentiating from the first act, or are we actually making choices? It must just be faith that divides it then.

But, as for a lot of Satanism, it seems to me in some cases an escape from Church, where something is wrong, and it was basically the Church that wanted Jesus killed in his day. So, leaving for other mystery schools to find the truth when Jesus himself is condemned in Church.

Edited by Opus Magnus
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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

If Jesus didn't say his advice on quickly agreeing with adversaries in your way, then the fingers wouldn't have been counted on the left hand. But, killing bugs has always been avoided, rather letting them out. Even more now though, with the laws of cleanliness from Moses. Killing an insect causes a whole bad day and might cost lots of money.

But, it seems to me a question of predestination vs. free will. They seem to contradict, but focusing on just free will is sometimes neccessary. Stars lining up, is it just a movement propentiating from the first act, or are we actually making choices? It must just be faith that divides it then.

But, as for a lot of Satanism, it seems to me in some cases an escape from Church, where something is wrong, and it was basically the Church that wanted Jesus killed in his day. So, leaving for other mystery schools to find the truth when Jesus himself is condemned in Church.

What in the hell does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

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Opus Magnus
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

What in the hell does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

What? Because of trying to the word I? Crowley mentions the practice in one of his booksn but Krishna says it in the Bhagavad-gita first.

But, it looks to make sense to me. Also the word mine, and my, but, Krishna uses the word himself anyway, showing the measure if his own hypcrisy in the Gospel Christ does this as well, making his own self in danger of Hellfire.

But, it looks to be on topic to me.

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XenoFish

This topic is about free will. it's not bible study. 

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XenoFish

Now to get back on topic.

 

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XenoFish

 

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Opus Magnus
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

This topic is about free will. it's not bible study. 

Sorry for expressing the topic in my own words, but my post was covering the points in the OP. Maybe check your eyes, you seem to be going blind.

Edited by Opus Magnus
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Perdurabo
14 hours ago, XenoFish said:

What in the hell does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

I can see where Opus is coming from although his/her writing style is admittedly a bit obscure. Quoting scripture of any origin as proof of something is a great way to stop learning. I mean, goodness! What if all the sacred texts were written by regular people just like us? What would stop us from writing our own gospels? When Paul wrote that all Scripture was useful, was he including the letters he had not yet written?

That said however, we are free to chose what we believe in. Aren't we? ;)

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XenoFish
2 hours ago, Perdurabo said:

we are free to chose what we believe in. Aren't we? 

You are free to choose, but you are not free from the responsibility of those choices.

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Perdurabo
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

You are free to choose, but you are not free from the responsibility of those choices.

Do you really believe that?

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XenoFish
Just now, Perdurabo said:

Do you really believe that?

Yes. Is that a problem?

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Perdurabo
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Yes. Is that a problem?

I don't believe so.

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Podo

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

 

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White Unicorn
On 1/12/2018 at 5:43 AM, Perdurabo said:

Would you say that you have free-will? By which I mean the sovereign right and ability to make decisions free from compulsion by outside sources.

Or would you say that you are a  robot? That free-will is an illusion and all of your choices are determined by your biology, your history and your mental programming.

Here’s a little experiment. Touch each of the fingers on your left hand to the thumb of that same hand in order from the pinky to the index finger. Do it now before reading any further.

Okay, did you follow my instructions or did you just keep reading? Either way, you made a decision and your reality went in a direction of your own choosing.

Right?

If you are a curious person who is open to learning and is willing to temporarily subordinate your own will to that of another in order to gain knowledge, you probably followed my instructions physically. On the other hand, if you are an independent-minded person who prefers to gloss over detail because you are confident in your ability to absorb a thing more holistically,  you probably kept on reading.

For simplicity’s sake, lets assume that you fit into one of these two profiles, okay?

Now, who made the decision that you would become that sort of person? Did you ever choose to develop those traits? Or is that just the way you are?


Two different people encounter an insect in their home. One picks it up and takes it outside. The other crushes it under their shoe. Neither of them spends any time thinking about what they do. They are like computers reacting to situations in a programmed manner. They will to not have the insect in their environment. They both take action to manifest that will. One of them has a compassionate nature who imagines that small creatures have some type of value. The other one values expedience and feels no empathy for the insect. It is an object to be eliminated.

Is either person exhibiting free-will?

Or are they merely following mental programming? If so, who programmed (taught) them to be this way? Who taught their teachers?


You selflessly do charitable works. Help everyone you can. Try to make the world a better place for all. Does it make you happy to do so? Yes?

Well, aren’t you just being selfish then? The actual goal is to make yourself feel happy. If you were truly compassionate, you would help everyone you could even to the point of great personal loss, pain and suffering. If suffering for God, King and Country makes you happy, then you will not feel like you are suffering at all. In fact, you will only do it because it is (secretly?) your desire. Thus, you are still being (impressively!) selfish.

Is there more virtue in the person who is unapologetically and honestly being selfish? LaVey-style “satanism” is built upon this very premise. Satanism? Scary stuff? Actually not. Most satanists are Judeo-Christian atheists. Mostly good people who can smell a rat but aren’t yet sure where it is.

Let’s imagine what the world would become if we each declared and vowed to only live for ourselves. To only do the things that make us feel happy and fulfilled. Would we all begin to steal each other’s stuff? Would we all kill the people who tried to take our stuff? Rape and pillage? Survival of the most evil and ruthless? Complete anarchy?

Would that really be the result of our collective Will?

Does that world sound like a place you would will to live in? Of course not. What do we truly will? What really makes us happy to the point that we would selfishly seek it out?

Well first of all, love. To care and be cared for by special people who are close to us. Warm beds. Good food. Decent beer. Protection from violent idiots. Help from others if we become sick or our house catches fire. Cool toys.

In other words, modern society.

That is where being totally selfish gets us.

So we do have free-will whether we want it or not.

I believe that we have free will by making choices presented to us. 

However, we are limited in the choices that we can make. The effects of be other's free will  as a collective determines the choices that we can make, so free will is actually very limited to us as individuals.

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MauriOra
On 12/01/2018 at 11:43 PM, Perdurabo said:

So we do have free-will whether we want it or not.

Right?

Atamarie To You..

Thankyou for opening this thread..

Ok,

YES....  Your right...

I am free in Mind..

I am free in Heart..

Making me free in my expression..

My Will.. desires this, and what my thoughts choose, So Shall it Be....

I Am Alive...

So I Live.....

I Cause No harm..But if it comes at me I will be Fierce...

Free is a state of mind..

My state of mind is....Free...

Peace to you and yours..

******

Mo..xx

Edited by MauriOra
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Illyrius
On 12. 01. 2018. at 11:43 AM, Perdurabo said:

Well, aren’t you just being selfish then? The actual goal is to make yourself feel happy. If you were truly compassionate, you would help everyone you could even to the point of great personal loss, pain and suffering. If suffering for God, King and Country makes you happy, then you will not feel like you are suffering at all. In fact, you will only do it because it is (secretly?) your desire. Thus, you are still being (impressively!) selfish.

We are all selfish to a degree. Some more, some less.

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MauriOra
13 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

We are all selfish to a degree. Some more, some less.

Atamarie Sir..

I Love Smoked Fish..mm

Yum...Manuka Smoked Fish is Deeeelicious...!!!

Ok,

Yes we are all selfish to a degree, sometimes this is an ugly trait and sometimes its survival mechanism....

Depending on the Environment and Upbringing..

Still, Free Will., means this can be changed, if you so Will it...

That is the Beauty of being Alive...

Peace Mr Argon...

*****

Mo..xx

Edited by MauriOra
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Illyrius
On 12. 01. 2018. at 11:43 AM, Perdurabo said:

Let’s imagine what the world would become if we each declared and vowed to only live for ourselves. To only do the things that make us feel happy and fulfilled. Would we all begin to steal each other’s stuff? Would we all kill the people who tried to take our stuff? Rape and pillage? Survival of the most evil and ruthless? Complete anarchy?

Good point.

I think there are people of various spectrum of selfishness. But it actually breaks down at one point. Do we care for feelings of others, or we only want just power and self-gratification without any respect for others? This is where compassion and guilt steps in. Without this inner warmth we would be just monsters.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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MauriOra
1 minute ago, Mr. Argon said:

Good point.

I think there are people of various spectrum of selfishness. But it actually breaks down at one point. Do we care for feelings of others who we care about, or we only want just power and self-gratification without any respect for others? This is where compassion and guilt steps in. Without this inner warmth we would be just monsters.

Yes..

This is very true....

Very wise......

Warmth towards others, lends Compassion....

Guilt comes from compassion too.

Knowing that hurt has been caused from an action made, lends to Compassion too..

So...yes...

Wise words...

Peace Sir...

Mo..xx

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