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Perdurabo

Would you say that you have free-will ?

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MauriOra
On 13/01/2018 at 11:22 PM, XenoFish said:

You are free to choose, but you are not free from the responsibility of those choices.

Atamarie Sir..

Hope you are well...

These words above speak truth..

You are free to choose...Yes..

And, you are Responsible for the Choices made in your name...

So..,

The Reasonable Decision would be........

Make Good Choices... and the responsibility to bear, will be a joy.....

Peace to you xen...

Mo..xx

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Sherapy
On 1/12/2018 at 9:19 AM, I'mConvinced said:

Free will only exists within the confines of your biological and environmental limits.  Most, if not all, of your 'choices' are actually made for you based on your brains interpretation of signals received both internally and externally.  Some people simply cannot make choices at all:

 

Very very very interesting!!! 

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quiXilver

While it does seem i make some choices and willfully follow, or avoid some situations.  Whether to have almond milk or water to drink.  Whether to go the the beach, forest or stay home.

 

When closely examined, choices seem confined and predefined by existing conditions beyond my individual control.

 

The moment I saw the young glowing woman who is now my wife of 29 years... there was no choice.  We collapsed together in union that has resonated ever since.

 

In fact we both, on two occasions, walked away in an attempt to go back to our preset, willed life plans, being so young at the time.  Only to fall effortlessly into the union, will be damned.

 

Not too many months ago, I got off work very early one day and decided to hit up the library philosophy section before going home.

 

As I pulled a book by Husserl from the shelf, I saw my wife's face through the gap in the rack, as she grabbed the book opposite mine in a different section entirely.

 

"Man!"  She exclaimed with a smile.  " There is just no way we were going to miss each other in this incarnation was there?"

 

I see free will like swimming in a river.  I may swim left, right, cling on a rock for a time, or grab a log... swim against the current, or with it.  Yet all my personal power and will are still confined within that river.

 

The river is the system of existing conditions that are 1) beyond my willful control and 2) determine the functuonal parameters of any choice.  In the end my life follows the flow of determing energies, despite all personal effort.

 

In the end, I can only choose almond milk or water, if they are in my environment.

 

If we choose our parents as the Tibetans claim, then perhaps yes there is some will.  If not our entire early process of life is beyond our control.  We don't choose our schooling, Food options, weather patterns that determine food availability..

The health of our genes, the color of our eyes, hair and skin.

 

We have no choice of the political landscape we are raised in, or what gods are sold to us as real or false before the age of reason arrives.

 

While I can accept a level of choice and will... I think we tend to grossly overestimate its potency within the currents of the flow of co-arising conditions far beyond our control.

 

Edited by quiXilver
large fingers... small keys
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I'mConvinced
7 hours ago, quiXilver said:

I see free will like swimming in a river.  I may swim left, right, cling on a rock for a time, or grab a log... swim against the current, or with it.  Yet all my personal power and will are still confined within that river.

:yes: :tu:

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MauriOra
1 minute ago, I'mConvinced said:

:yes: :tu:

Atamarie Sir.. xx

I have Loved your words and Wisdom of late...

Thankyou Teacher..!!!

***********

Arohanuikiakoe...

MauriOra.. x x

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Podo

We have free will insofar as we have the ability to consciously respond to stimuli. However, I'm convinced that we're just meat-robots with less control over our responses than we think we do.

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Hre2breal
On 1/17/2018 at 5:59 PM, quiXilver said:

While it does seem i make some choices and willfully follow, or avoid some situations.  Whether to have almond milk or water to drink.  Whether to go the the beach, forest or stay home.

 

When closely examined, choices seem confined and predefined by existing conditions beyond my individual control.

 

The moment I saw the young glowing woman who is now my wife of 29 years... there was no choice.  We collapsed together in union that has resonated ever since.

 

In fact we both, on two occasions, walked away in an attempt to go back to our preset, willed life plans, being so young at the time.  Only to fall effortlessly into the union, will be damned.

 

Not too many months ago, I got off work very early one day and decided to hit up the library philosophy section before going home.

 

As I pulled a book by Husserl from the shelf, I saw my wife's face through the gap in the rack, as she grabbed the book opposite mine in a different section entirely.

 

"Man!"  She exclaimed with a smile.  " There is just no way we were going to miss each other in this incarnation was there?"

 

I see free will like swimming in a river.  I may swim left, right, cling on a rock for a time, or grab a log... swim against the current, or with it.  Yet all my personal power and will are still confined within that river.

 

The river is the system of existing conditions that are 1) beyond my willful control and 2) determine the functuonal parameters of any choice.  In the end my life follows the flow of determing energies, despite all personal effort.

 

In the end, I can only choose almond milk or water, if they are in my environment.

 

If we choose our parents as the Tibetans claim, then perhaps yes there is some will.  If not our entire early process of life is beyond our control.  We don't choose our schooling, Food options, weather patterns that determine food availability..

The health of our genes, the color of our eyes, hair and skin.

 

We have no choice of the political landscape we are raised in, or what gods are sold to us as real or false before the age of reason arrives.

 

While I can accept a level of choice and will... I think we tend to grossly overestimate its potency within the currents of the flow of co-arising conditions far beyond our control.

 

Awesome post ....Humouress, Logical, Respectful ,Wise....I really like your thought process here.I totally agree...Thanks

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SeekerWCF
On 1/12/2018 at 8:05 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

The main issue is that it doesn't appear we'll ever be able to distinguish between your last 2 questions.  To go to the flip side of your example, 2 amoebas sense some food in their environment.  One of them moves to the food an envelopes/consumes it, the other passes it by.  Did they also both take actions to manifest their will, is either amoeba exhibiting free will or just programming?  If it's just programming, which makes sense to me, then why would we think we're different?  A lot of the world we live in sure seems to be essentially deterministic, and whether the only thing I'm aware of that is possibly indeterminate, the quantum world, is ultimately indeterminate is still (ha) undetermined.  So what part of our brain is enabling this break from the determinism that seems to govern most everything else?

 

On 1/12/2018 at 2:43 AM, Perdurabo said:

Would you say that you have free-will? By which I mean the sovereign right and ability to make decisions free from compulsion by outside sources.

Or would you say that you are a  robot? That free-will is an illusion and all of your choices are determined by your biology, your history and your mental programming.

Here’s a little experiment. Touch each of the fingers on your left hand to the thumb of that same hand in order from the pinky to the index finger. Do it now before reading any further.

Okay, did you follow my instructions or did you just keep reading? Either way, you made a decision and your reality went in a direction of your own choosing.

Right?

If you are a curious person who is open to learning and is willing to temporarily subordinate your own will to that of another in order to gain knowledge, you probably followed my instructions physically. On the other hand, if you are an independent-minded person who prefers to gloss over detail because you are confident in your ability to absorb a thing more holistically,  you probably kept on reading.

For simplicity’s sake, lets assume that you fit into one of these two profiles, okay?

Now, who made the decision that you would become that sort of person? Did you ever choose to develop those traits? Or is that just the way you are?


Two different people encounter an insect in their home. One picks it up and takes it outside. The other crushes it under their shoe. Neither of them spends any time thinking about what they do. They are like computers reacting to situations in a programmed manner. They will to not have the insect in their environment. They both take action to manifest that will. One of them has a compassionate nature who imagines that small creatures have some type of value. The other one values expedience and feels no empathy for the insect. It is an object to be eliminated.

Is either person exhibiting free-will?

Or are they merely following mental programming? If so, who programmed (taught) them to be this way? Who taught their teachers?


You selflessly do charitable works. Help everyone you can. Try to make the world a better place for all. Does it make you happy to do so? Yes?

Well, aren’t you just being selfish then? The actual goal is to make yourself feel happy. If you were truly compassionate, you would help everyone you could even to the point of great personal loss, pain and suffering. If suffering for God, King and Country makes you happy, then you will not feel like you are suffering at all. In fact, you will only do it because it is (secretly?) your desire. Thus, you are still being (impressively!) selfish.

Is there more virtue in the person who is unapologetically and honestly being selfish? LaVey-style “satanism” is built upon this very premise. Satanism? Scary stuff? Actually not. Most satanists are Judeo-Christian atheists. Mostly good people who can smell a rat but aren’t yet sure where it is.

Let’s imagine what the world would become if we each declared and vowed to only live for ourselves. To only do the things that make us feel happy and fulfilled. Would we all begin to steal each other’s stuff? Would we all kill the people who tried to take our stuff? Rape and pillage? Survival of the most evil and ruthless? Complete anarchy?

Would that really be the result of our collective Will?

Does that world sound like a place you would will to live in? Of course not. What do we truly will? What really makes us happy to the point that we would selfishly seek it out?

Well first of all, love. To care and be cared for by special people who are close to us. Warm beds. Good food. Decent beer. Protection from violent idiots. Help from others if we become sick or our house catches fire. Cool toys.

In other words, modern society.

That is where being totally selfish gets us.

So we do have free-will whether we want it or not.

Right?

Free will does exist. True we are influenced by many things, but the choice to do or not do something ultimately is a moment of calculation. The quantum universe is random and there is not past and no future. Those are cognitive constructs. Consciousness is an emergent property of our brain an epiphenomon. Epiphenomons happen when things are assembled together but the resulting assembly brings a new property into being that non of the individual parts can accomplish. This new property is the ability to make decisions above and beyond its that cascading sets of circumstances. It is true that it's derministic in some fashion but through chaos that determinism is the ultimate expression of many many random quantum changes. Imagine it as a unique equation that is constantly changing. If you throw a variable in it's going to spit out something but all information change the equation it's self including the expression of quantum fluctuations. It's the equation that is you. You can loose all your memory and not even know your name, and some decisions may be different becuause you base many decision of off rmebering outcomes, it in a more minute by minute sense you are still going to make similar decisions and because the equation is alessntially the same only altered by the new experience of memeory loss. The nural pathways of previous choices and experiences are still written even if the memory itself is gone. It's hard to grasp but the epiphenomon is now a new actor on the stage. It's kind of like a complex system that on average will act certain ways, but based on incoming information that system will choose to optimize its position. 

I have done a lot of reading on this and mostly neurologists, physicists, psychologists to think we can choose even if much of our choices are based on the passed. 

When it comes to those choices then yes that is where economics takes over and you are always seeking to maximize your utility. But if someone tells you to jump off a cliff, and you don't want to, have no reason to, loath the idea, and love your life, you can still choose to do it no matter what. You can just choose to jump no reason. It doesn't have to be a cascading set of nural actuvity, you literally can just do it. 

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Invisig0th

Great question, that I waffle on constantly. In my darker moods, I'm a firm proponent of determinism. On glass half-full days, I find the fact one can determine for themselves whether free will exists is itself expressive of humanity's inherent agency. 

Here's a great, if dense, read that expands on this in a more coherent way:

http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/james/

[TL;DR 'My first act of free will shall be to believe in free will.']

Edited by Invisig0th

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Yinarchy

We have free will when we do that which is not most egotistical.

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Jon the frog

Rules of law and society refrain me to have free will. My bank also refrain me to have free will without being badly butt hurt. I would assure you if people would have free will, some president would not be in power.

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quiXilver

Your banking comment reminded me of this.

"if you ever think no one cares about you, just stop paying your bills for 90 days."

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Marion Jenis

@PerduraboWhat really makes us happy to the point that we would seek it out?

I recently wrote an essay in which I performed two thought experiments: first that everyone who goes to heaven will eventually find himself or herself in hell, and second that God will eventually find Himself (or Herself) in hell. The rules for the experiments were that time in heaven would proceed just as it does here on earth, moment by moment, hour by hour---but the experiences of heaven would not be interrupted by sleep but only by rest, if that were desired. In these experiments heaven could be anything imaginable---innumerable planets, planes of existence, great works, recreation, universities, sex, holiness, lawlessness, etc. Anything imaginable will lead eventually to the experience of hell because every experience will grow stale and boring after one million years. Or if not, after 100 million years. Or if not, after 10 billion years. And 10 billion years is 0% of the total time available. One thousand billion years is 0% of the time available. The experience of absolute boredom must be hellish. The only way to avoid hell would be to cease to exist. If consciousness ceases entirely after physical death, we have the best of all possible worlds, because everyone will be free from suffering. Nirvana is the next best thing to absolute non-existence, but in the world in which freedom from suffering depends upon one's efforts, education, skill, or luck, there will still be a great deal of suffering for many people. 

I wrote the essay as a kind of philosophical joke, because existence is not like that. At least, I believe that it is not like that. I believe that consciousness is continually interrupted by periods of unconsciousness. Call it sleep. For example---we forget our former incarnations if there is reincarnation. And God forgets the worlds he already created when He loses consciousness in mahapralaya, a phase of non-manifestation. But there may be a way out of the hell that I described even if there is no forgetfulness. It is to consciously accept hell as a Bodhisattva. I will let the industrious student do the research.

Edited by Marion Jenis
clarity

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bison

A deterministic universe, in which everything that occurs has a prior cause appears inescapable.  The desire for freedom and free will seem to be preferences about the sort of causes that have an influence on us. If we act on the causes that we have internalized, and find acceptable, we may believe that we are acting freely.

If we are made to act against those internalized values by certain causes external to ourselves, we may believe that we are being denied the exercise of free will. The desire for freedom, then, is a perfectly valid, though caused, expression of a living being, and permits that being to protect itself from harm, and to prosper among the multitude of other living beings, each with its own set of caused desires.    

Edited by bison
added clarifying words and phrases

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