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Lilly

Venezuela From Wealth To Horror

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It is frightening, how quickly a country or an entire region can descend into chaos.

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something tells me socialism and  rampant corruption that always follows it, is the main ingredient

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In the case of Venezuela it's definitely corruption and socialism that are the culprits. However, in other places, it can be dictatorships and the influx of criminal cartels as the prime causes.

BTW, considering the 'political climate' here of late I feel the need to point out that this type of horror can happen anywhere and to any racial/ethnic populations. Venezuela has a very diverse population (from Wiki):

About 51.6% of the population is Mestizo, while 43.6% are white of European ancestry and/or Middle Eastern ancestry. Another 3.7% is black/African, while 2.7% is of full Amerindian ancestry, and 1.0% other races ( principally Asian people).

No group of people, no geographic location is immune from this type of thing taking place.

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3 hours ago, acute said:

It is frightening, how quickly a country or an entire region can descend into chaos.

Not so quickly, in Venezuela's case: Chavez was elected in 1998.

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All their eggs in one basket- oil. 

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Well, they WHERE subject to massive US sanctions for a decade or so, wheren't they ? 

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2 hours ago, Lilly said:

In the case of Venezuela it's definitely corruption and socialism that are the culprits. However, in other places, it can be dictatorships and the influx of criminal cartels as the prime causes.

Socialism and corruption comes in many names and forms.

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1 hour ago, PersonFromPorlock said:

Not so quickly, in Venezuela's case: Chavez was elected in 1998.

It took less than 20 years...in the large frame of things this is not a very long time.

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5 hours ago, PersonFromPorlock said:

Not so quickly, in Venezuela's case: Chavez was elected in 1998.

There's always a tipping point, when the status gets un-quo'd.

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I feel bad for the innocent people. I saw an article but didn't read it. They were attacking an innocent animal for food! It breaks my heart these people are resorting to that sort of thing! The government doesn't care about them!

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well the people supported their leaders, we cannot give a clean chit to the people and blame everything on their leaders 

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4 hours ago, kartikg said:

well the people supported their leaders, we cannot give a clean chit to the people and blame everything on their leaders 

Not always, sometimes their leaders were corrupted after gaining power, or rose to power via force (not because the people elected them). Then there's failure that can come from simply promoting a system that's inherently flawed doomed to eventually crash and burn (can't sustain itself).

Honestly, this type of thing can take place due to the actions of only a few, leaving the majority of the populace to suffer horribly. Keep in mind this type of thing can happen regardless of geographic location, race, ethnic background etc.

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5 hours ago, Lilly said:

Not always, sometimes their leaders were corrupted after gaining power, or rose to power via force (not because the people elected them). Then there's failure that can come from simply promoting a system that's inherently flawed doomed to eventually crash and burn (can't sustain itself).

Honestly, this type of thing can take place due to the actions of only a few, leaving the majority of the populace to suffer horribly. Keep in mind this type of thing can happen regardless of geographic location, race, ethnic background etc.

... and by coincidence it happened under a "socialist" government ? 

Hmmm...... what was the failure ? Socialism, the individual dictator, or the US sanctions ? 

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1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

 

Hmmm...... what was the failure ? Socialism, the individual dictator, or the US sanctions ? 

Socialism has a poor track record. Dictatorships generally have even worse track records. Sanctions to stop Dictatorships, not very effective either.

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1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

... and by coincidence it happened under a "socialist" government ? 

Hmmm...... what was the failure ? Socialism, the individual dictator, or the US sanctions ? 

In my opinion all three played a part but removing any one of those three would not have had Venezuelan citizens faring much better.

https://mises.org/blog/venezuela-chavez-prelude-socialist-failure

Is the first part of a two part article examining the rise and fall of post colonial Venezuela. I found it a very interesting read.

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Lilly said:

Socialism has a poor track record. Dictatorships generally have even worse track records. Sanctions to stop Dictatorships, not very effective either.

"Socialism has a poor track record" as opposed to what?  What you have in Venezuela is Authoritarianism, not Socialism. Same with the old Soviet Union, China and Fidel Castro's Cuba.  The second D in DDR (East Germany) stood for Democratic, but it wasn't anything Democratic.  You can call something whatever you want, it means nothing unless the word truly represents such a principal or philosophy.  If these are the poor track records you're talking about of so called left-wing regimes how about we look at where right-wing conservative ideology started.  

Right wing ideology has plagued humanity throughout history, the only difference is that it used to come under a different form of governance.  A bit of history, in 18th century France during the French Revolution, Conservative right wing philosophy supported the Monarch system, while the Progressive left considered it old school (Ancien Regime) and eventually booted all the "corrupt" royals and privileged despots out of power which they held for centuries from bloodline to bloodline.  Eventually most civilised nations removed their Monarchs or reduced their political influence. 

So right wing ideology has always favored the rich few over the majority poor.  In the past wars were fought so the rich could increase their land possessions, these days right wing Govts form budgets that give the rich tax breaks while the middle class and poor pay for every cent they work their behinds for.

 

Edited by Black Red Devil

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Posted (edited)

24 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

"Socialism has a poor track record" as opposed to what?  What you have in Venezuela is Authoritarianism, not Socialism. Same with the old Soviet Union, China and Fidel Castro's Cuba.  The second D in DDR (East Germany) stood for Democratic, but it wasn't anything Democratic.  You can call something whatever you want, it means nothing unless the word truly represents such a principal or philosophy.  If these are the poor track records you're talking about of so called left-wing regimes how about we look at where right-wing conservative ideology started.  

Right wing ideology has plagued humanity throughout history, the only difference is that it used to come under a different form of governance.  A bit of history, in 18th century France during the French Revolution, Conservative right wing philosophy supported the Monarch system, while the Progressive left considered it old school (Ancien Regime) and eventually booted all the "corrupt" royals and privileged despots out of power which they held for centuries from bloodline to bloodline.  Eventually most civilised nations removed their Monarchs or reduced their political influence. 

So right wing ideology has always favored the rich few over the majority poor.  In the past wars were fought so the rich could increase their land possessions, these days right wing Govts form budgets that give the rich tax breaks while the middle class and poor pay for every cent they work their behinds for.

 

OK then. Can you give me any examples of where a Socialist government has NOT slipped into authoritarianism ? I can't think of any. It seems to be part and parcel of  practical socialism. As for "right wing ideology".... I'm not sure that the French Revolution could be classed as "left wing" in the modern sense of things. The desire to overthrow the monarchy included the merchant classes as much as it did the peasantry. :) 

As for the "right wing" favouring the rich over the majority poor, well... the same could be said of Monarchies and feudalism, as you pointed out.

But it can also be said of socialist societies and of communism. Because they all - without exception - decay into corruption. In point of fact - as Venezuela is discovering - they make make the poor even poorer, to the point of starvation. But the rich never starve. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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That's called a Monarchy, not right wing Conservatism. Rule by bloodlines. Talk about stretching!

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3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

"Socialism has a poor track record" as opposed to what?

Uh, as opposed to systems of government with economic incentives, property rights, free markets and  personal freedoms.

Here's a good article on why Socialism doesn't work in the long run: https://lfb.org/why-socialism-failed/

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

OK then. Can you give me any examples of where a Socialist government has NOT slipped into authoritarianism ? I can't think of any. It seems to be part and parcel of  practical socialism. As for "right wing ideology".... I'm not sure that the French Revolution could be classed as "left wing" in the modern sense of things. The desire to overthrow the monarchy included the merchant classes as much as it did the peasantry. :) 

As for the "right wing" favouring the rich over the majority poor, well... the same could be said of Monarchies and feudalism, as you pointed out.

 

There are many political parties in the west that follow a form of Socialist ideology and its principals.  Here some of its principals,  

Income equality; higher tax rates on the wealthy; government spending on social programs and infrastructure; stronger regulations on business.

Pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants; moratorium on deportations or prosecutions of undocumented immigrants who are young adults and have no criminal record.

Favor expanded free, public education.

Look up any link and provide me with one that states Socialism includes Authoritarian rule.  Never said the French Revolution was left wing, read again, although I will say that most that booted the royals off their thrones were anti-monarchy.  So draw your conclusions.

Quote

But it can also be said of socialist societies and of communism. Because they all - without exception - decay into corruption. In point of fact - as Venezuela is discovering - they make make the poor even poorer, to the point of starvation. But the rich never starve.

But that's not what socialism is about.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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BTW, a nation can include certain aspects of socialism without being classically Socialist. As in greater taxation of the wealthy, social welfare programs, laws that protect workers from abuse and so forth. However, the basic system still remains capitalism with economic incentives, property rights, free markets and  personal freedoms.

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34 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Uh, as opposed to systems of government with economic incentives, property rights, free markets and  personal freedoms.

Here's a good article on why Socialism doesn't work in the long run: https://lfb.org/why-socialism-failed/

The real answer is in your link :

The Marxist admitted that many “socialist” countries around the world were failing. However, according to him, the reason for failure is not that socialism is deficient, but that the socialist economies are not practicing “pure” socialism. The perfect version of socialism would work;

An article that glorifies capitalists.  Well, here are ten reasons of the disadvantages of capitalism.

https://listverse.com/2012/01/16/top-10-disadvantages-to-capitalism/

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2 minutes ago, Lilly said:

BTW, a nation can include certain aspects of socialism without being classically Socialist. As in greater taxation of the wealthy, social welfare programs, laws that protect workers from abuse and so forth. However, the basic system still remains capitalism with economic incentives, property rights, free markets and  personal freedoms.

Well, your President just recently proved that theory wrong.  Didn't 80% of his tax budget favor the wealthy?

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LOL, and ironically we just never see an example of this "perfect socialism".

411, nothing is perfect. That said, all these people from all these failed states are trying to come to where? Hint, it's not to Cuba or Venezuela. My advice to all those who really like the idea of socialism...move to one of these nations and experience it first hand.

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