Only_ Posted February 20, 2018 #101 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said: If this escalates NATO will kick Syria out of existence. I doubt it. It is Syria's sovereign intergrity that is is danger by this Turkish incursion in Afrin. Erdogan has absolutely no basis at this point to invoke article 5 of NATO. Edited February 20, 2018 by Clockwork_Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Smoke aLot Posted February 21, 2018 #102 Share Posted February 21, 2018 12 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: I doubt it. It is Syria's sovereign intergrity that is is danger by this Turkish incursion in Afrin. Erdogan has absolutely no basis at this point to invoke article 5 of NATO. Remember Libya? Now Saif Gaddafi is expected to run for presidency. Remember WMD's? There were none. Do you really believe that anyone cares for the international law anymore? Most of them 'players' even mock it on daily basis. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 22, 2018 #103 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Syria: Pro-Assad forces enter Afrin city despite Turkish shelling "We came to the city of Afrin to support our brothers here, and now we are standing in the heart of Afrin, as you see," a commander of the pro-government Syrian forces said, as comrades celebrated. "We are in the heart of Afrin with huge numbers and we will stay here until we kick out the Ottoman Turk occupiers." http://www.euronews.com/2018/02/21/syria-pro-assad-forces-enter-afrin-city-despite-turkish-shelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted February 22, 2018 #104 Share Posted February 22, 2018 16 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: Syria: Pro-Assad forces enter Afrin city despite Turkish shelling "We came to the city of Afrin to support our brothers here, and now we are standing in the heart of Afrin, as you see," a commander of the pro-government Syrian forces said, as comrades celebrated. "We are in the heart of Afrin with huge numbers and we will stay here until we kick out the Ottoman Turk occupiers." http://www.euronews.com/2018/02/21/syria-pro-assad-forces-enter-afrin-city-despite-turkish-shelling Ummm...... and your point being ? If we take Arab boasting seriously, then Israel was destroyed in 1948. And several times since. On the other hand, the reference to "Ottoman Turk occupiers" is interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 23, 2018 #105 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, RoofGardener said: Ummm...... and your point being ? If we take Arab boasting seriously, then Israel was destroyed in 1948. And several times since. On the other hand, the reference to "Ottoman Turk occupiers" is interesting. My point is, we see who are the Kurds' true ally at this point. Certainly not the U.S., who abandonned them to their fate in Afrin. Edited February 23, 2018 by Clockwork_Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 23, 2018 Author #106 Share Posted February 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: My point is, we see who are the Kurds' true ally at this point. Certainly not the U.S., who abandonned them to their fate in Afrin. i don't think that the U.S. abandoned them. looks like they're trying to neutralise the Turk push into Syria by pushing the Kurds into Russia and Assad's embrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 23, 2018 #107 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: i don't think that the U.S. abandoned them. looks like they're trying to neutralise the Turk push into Syria by pushing the Kurds into Russia and Assad's embrace. If you can't do anything other than pushing your ally into your 'ennemies' arms, that doesn't look too good. At this point, who is willing to suffer casualties for the Syrian Kurds? Not the U.S. It's those pro-Assad forces who are taking a stand against the Turkish invasion of Afrin. Edited February 23, 2018 by Clockwork_Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 23, 2018 Author #108 Share Posted February 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: If you can't do anything other than pushing your ally into your 'ennemies' arms, that doesn't look too good. At this point, who is willing to suffer casualties for the Syrian Kurds? Not the U.S. It's those pro-Assad forces who are taking a stand against the Turkish invasion of Afrin. agreed! the U.S. policy in Syria has been shambolic and will continue to be so until America decides to openly state its intentions and back the relevant parties. wouldn't it have been so much easier if America just backed Turkey?so why didn't they? the Kurds are favoured cause the Turks have plans that run contrary to U.S. goals but Turkey is putting tremendous pressure on America and in particular Trump to not get directly involved. so i suspect that the Americans have chosen the lesser of the two evils. wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 23, 2018 Author #109 Share Posted February 23, 2018 On 2/21/2018 at 7:55 AM, Clockwork_Spirit said: I doubt it. It is Syria's sovereign intergrity that is is danger by this Turkish incursion in Afrin. Erdogan has absolutely no basis at this point to invoke article 5 of NATO. even if he did I'm sure that a few fellow NATO allies would be quick to point out that a few years ago its wanted to invoke article 5 when Turkey shot down that Russian SU-25. now Putin and Erdogan are best buddies and scheming endlessly in Syria. so yeah, any calls in invoke article 5 would be looked at as Turkish adventurism and not a real threat to NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 23, 2018 #110 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: agreed! the U.S. policy in Syria has been shambolic and will continue to be so until America decides to openly state its intentions and back the relevant parties. wouldn't it have been so much easier if America just backed Turkey?so why didn't they? the Kurds are favoured cause the Turks have plans that run contrary to U.S. goals but Turkey is putting tremendous pressure on America and in particular Trump to not get directly involved. so i suspect that the Americans have chosen the lesser of the two evils. wouldn't you? I think the U.S. has painted itself in a corner. They can't do anything against Turkey because they are a NATO ally and the Kurdish support doesn't take precedence over that alliance. They can't support Assad either, who is clearly winning the war, or they would lose face. I think Putin has outplayed both Presidents and one must admit, the U.S. is becoming an irrelevant player in the Syrian conflict. Edited February 23, 2018 by Clockwork_Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 23, 2018 Author #111 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Just now, Clockwork_Spirit said: I think the U.S. has painted itself in a corner. They can't do anything against the Turkey because they are a NATO ally and the Kurdish support doesn't take priority over that alliance. They can't support Assad either, who is clearly winning the war or they would lose face. I think Putin has outplayed both president and one must admit the U.S. has become irrelevant in Syria. makes you wonder what could have been if Hillary was elected instead of Trump. would she have bent over for Putin? unlikely and more likely would have ripped erdogan a new one. Trump is weak when it comes to foreign policy and everyone is taking advantage. the only positive i see for America is the U.S. military which seems to be acting with ALOT of latitude in Syria. almost counter productive to Trumps wishes it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted February 23, 2018 #112 Share Posted February 23, 2018 The Kurds have no friends internationally. Not at governmental level, anyway. They have no Oil ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 23, 2018 #113 Share Posted February 23, 2018 12 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: one must admit, the U.S. is becoming an irrelevant player in the Syrian conflict. P'raps we could ask the families of the 300 dead and wounded Wagner (Russian Mercs) troops that were decimated by those "irrelevant" U.S. air strikes after attempting to take oil-rich land from those Kurdish allies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 23, 2018 #114 Share Posted February 23, 2018 On 2/5/2018 at 0:56 PM, Clockwork_Spirit said: which really means the end of NATO as we know it. That alliance is in serious need of revamping, anyway. It's ridiculous to imagine a partnership of any kind where one of the members can openly work against the interests of the others and those others have no recourse. Turkey, rebuffed by the EU, has decided to become part of the Russian orbit, defacto. Russia, Iran, and Turkey working in common cause, who'd a thunk it? Wait... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 23, 2018 #115 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, and then said: P'raps we could ask the families of the 300 dead and wounded Wagner (Russian Mercs) troops that were decimated by those "irrelevant" U.S. air strikes after attempting to take oil-rich land from those Kurdish allies? An oil field in the Syrian province of Deir el-Zour belonging to the Syrian government and it's people. ''Syrian troops, backed by Russian warplanes and Iranian-sponsored militias, have retaken nearly all of the provincial capital of Deir el-Zour, as well as the town of Mayadeen, another IS stronghold, which is across the Euphrates River from the Al-Omar field.'' [...] Syria had proven oil reserves of 2.5 billion barrels as of 2015, giving it the largest supply among its neighbors after Iraq. The oil industry was a pillar of the Syrian economy before the conflict in 2011.'' https://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/22/us-allied-force-takes-syrias-largest-oil-field-is/ That is the reality, and then. Edited February 23, 2018 by Clockwork_Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 24, 2018 #116 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, and then said: That alliance is in serious need of revamping, anyway. It's ridiculous to imagine a partnership of any kind where one of the members can openly work against the interests of the others and those others have no recourse. Turkey, rebuffed by the EU, has decided to become part of the Russian orbit, defacto. Russia, Iran, and Turkey working in common cause, who'd a thunk it? Wait... Turkey is NATO's southeastern flank. Not something the West can easily replace. I'm afraid that the Kurdish support come second to that. Edited February 24, 2018 by Clockwork_Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 24, 2018 #117 Share Posted February 24, 2018 10 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: That is the reality, and then. Wow, I bet the families of the dead Russians will be glad to know it was just a rumor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted February 24, 2018 #118 Share Posted February 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: Not something the West can easily replace. You're missing the point, clocks... it's TURKEY that is effectively abandoning NATO by its actions, not the other way round. What with NATO being formed for defense of Europe against the Soviet Union and Russia being the center of that entity, cozying up to Russia and buying weapons from them is not acceptable for the alliance, long-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted February 24, 2018 #119 Share Posted February 24, 2018 2 hours ago, and then said: Wow, I bet the families of the dead Russians will be glad to know it was just a rumor. It's all about the oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 24, 2018 Author #120 Share Posted February 24, 2018 4 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said: Turkey is NATO's southeastern flank. Not something the West can easily replace. I'm afraid that the Kurdish support come second to that. i don't think that Erdogan's ambitions can so easily be contained. this dude harbours empire building and superpower symbols. he will not be dictated to nor will he settle for any western values. what good is he or Turkey to the U.S.? this is a hardcore Islamists. when the west supports the Kurds, they are planning for the future. a future disintegration of not just the Middle East but Turkey as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted February 25, 2018 #121 Share Posted February 25, 2018 14 hours ago, Captain Risky said: i don't think that Erdogan's ambitions can so easily be contained. this dude harbours empire building and superpower symbols. he will not be dictated to nor will he settle for any western values. what good is he or Turkey to the U.S.? this is a hardcore Islamists. when the west supports the Kurds, they are planning for the future. a future disintegration of not just the Middle East but Turkey as well. I really don't understand what he thinks to achieve by running down Kurds in Iraq and Syria. He's going to make enemies on both political spectrums. Russia and Syria are allies and Russian and Turks have never seen eye to eye. He's going to also fight US backed forces. The Kurds have won this propaganda war. Political suicide IMO and coming to think of it, the Turks would actually benefit if Kurds were given their own land in Iraq. Many Kurds living in Turkey would probably move there and reduce their self determination aspirations in Anatolia. Iraq is only a makeshift nation anyway, split between Arabs, Persians, Shiites ans Sunni's so I doubt there would be huge political pressure coming from them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted February 25, 2018 Author #122 Share Posted February 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said: I really don't understand what he thinks to achieve by running down Kurds in Iraq and Syria. He's going to make enemies on both political spectrums. Russia and Syria are allies and Russian and Turks have never seen eye to eye. He's going to also fight US backed forces. The Kurds have won this propaganda war. Political suicide IMO and coming to think of it, the Turks would actually benefit if Kurds were given their own land in Iraq. Many Kurds living in Turkey would probably move there and reduce their self determination aspirations in Anatolia. Iraq is only a makeshift nation anyway, split between Arabs, Persians, Shiites ans Sunni's so I doubt there would be huge political pressure coming from them. he’s a very angry man, this Erdogan. Like you said he’s making enemies left, right and centre. maybe all this scheming around him by Russia and the U.S. is making him paranoid or just maybe he doesn’t want Turkey having its own ‘spring’ revolution. there are 40 million odd Kurds in the region without a nation. Reason enough for Turkey to be fearful of any border changes. What makes you think that a Northern Iraq/Syria Kurdish nation will be good for Turkey? personally I think it will just spur on greater Kurdish aspirations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted February 25, 2018 #123 Share Posted February 25, 2018 5 hours ago, Captain Risky said: he’s a very angry man, this Erdogan. Like you said he’s making enemies left, right and centre. maybe all this scheming around him by Russia and the U.S. is making him paranoid or just maybe he doesn’t want Turkey having its own ‘spring’ revolution. there are 40 million odd Kurds in the region without a nation. Reason enough for Turkey to be fearful of any border changes. What makes you think that a Northern Iraq/Syria Kurdish nation will be good for Turkey? personally I think it will just spur on greater Kurdish aspirations. Not in Syria, just Iraq. If the Kurds are given their own land, I believe many would prefer to relocate to a new homeland rather than live a lifetime in a land where they're basically living as second class citizens. With a new homeland next door they would finally have an option they've never had before, to be free under Kurdish rule and their own Constitution. I believe this would deflate their struggle for self determination in Turkey. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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