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OverSword

FISA memo set to end collusion investigation

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and then
2 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Several intelligence agencies, world-wide, have raised red flags related to Team Trump and Russia.

Those connections have been proven, yet despite the leak-a-day pace of bombshells early in his administration, the only charges have been of a "process" nature.  So Trump had business dealings with Russians and hired members of his campaign that either dealt with or desired to deal with Russians for economic gain.  An Den?  Ah What?  Heck, even I went to Russia for a week in 2008, June if IIRC.  Beautiful place, mostly sad, distrustful people.  The point is that doing business in Russia isn't a crime, just ask HRC and her crew.  You and I don't agree on much, Orange County, but I've always respected your opinions.  I sure hope you're man enough to admit your misplaced trust when this thing implodes on you.   You can be SURE that I am.  If facts become available that actually prove the president was part of an effort to steal an election through mischief of any kind beyond the normal campaign research for dirt, then I WILL admit I was wrong to trust him.  Unfortunately, even THEN I couldn't say I would have voted differently.  I was part of that not insignificant % of his supporters that would have voted for ANYONE but Clinton.  I voted for Ted Cruz in the primaries and I know many who did the same and voted Trump in the General election.  It's my belief that the Progressive mindset and policies are attempting to destroy the Constitution that this nation was founded on and those who are cheering it on are going to find too late that when it all collapses, they're going down too.  

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Tatetopa

Thats good.

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Tiggs
38 minutes ago, and then said:

I agree.  This is truly an example of Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes, as it relates to seats of power.  If there is clear reason to question the honesty of the leadership of the FBI or DOJ, then a Special Counsel should be a no-brainer.  If the innuendo surrounding the Trump campaign was enough then surely the facts that have come out from communications between FBI employees justify a deeper investigation.  Trump or his people stupidly used other business types with connections to Russian money and this whole inquisition gained legs without ANY proof that Trump - or any of those working for him - actually tried to do anything to illegally affect the election.  I think Mueller is grasping at straws now and he's going to look ridiculous and impotent if he doesn't shoehorn some significant charge against SOMEONE, and soon.  Meanwhile, Jeff Sessions seems to be fiddling while DC burns.  If he doesn't appoint a Special Counsel or explain exactly WHY he can't then he needs to GO.  I have always voted for and admired the man as my Senator.  I hate to lose that respect but he's beginning to seem like a swamp dweller.  

Sessions testified before Congress back in November that he had instructed the DOJ to look into the allegations, in order to determine if a Special Counsel should be appointed to investigate Clinton.

You'll perhaps note the current lack of one, three months later.

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and then
3 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

ou'll perhaps note the current lack of one, three months later.

Hence my last post about his potential swamp dweller status.  I'll still give him some benefit of the doubt though since much of the most explosive information has only recently come to light.  If he doesn't act soon, that doubt will be gone.

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Tatetopa
3 minutes ago, and then said:

Hence my last post about his potential swamp dweller status.  I'll still give him some benefit of the doubt though since much of the most explosive information has only recently come to light.  If he doesn't act soon, that doubt will be gone.

Hate to pun the obvious, but maybe chasing Hillary is a witch hunt too.  If Sessions is a good servant of the people, maybe his department has not found enough to warrant  a special counsel  and he is standing for what is right even in the face of many of his own party who say she is guilty without evidence enough to present in a court of law.  That would make him a pretty honorable guy.

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RavenHawk
52 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

Including all the ones Mueller has in reserve -- like, Flynn lying on his security clearance application?

Flynn is guilty for lying on his SF86 about being an agent of Turkey.  Considering his position in fighting terrorism, helping a NATO ally, it is hardly the act of treason.  Just a poor decision.  In most cases, this would be a reprimand or termination.  That’s why I said that everyone that fills out a SF86 or testifies in a 302 can be charged with perjury and all it takes is an administrative determination.  Mueller threaten to bring down the hammer if Flynn didn’t spill the beans.  Well, there is no beans to spill or action would have already been taken.  Flynn’s life is already ruined by Mueller.

 

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RavenHawk
2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

You would have to prove the documentation bogus. Instead of just claiming it over and over.

So what pertinent part of the Dossier is true and verifiable?

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Tiggs
11 minutes ago, and then said:

Those connections have been proven, yet despite the leak-a-day pace of bombshells early in his administration, the only charges have been of a "process" nature.  So Trump had business dealings with Russians and hired members of his campaign that either dealt with or desired to deal with Russians for economic gain.  An Den?  Ah What?  Heck, even I went to Russia for a week in 2008, June if IIRC.  Beautiful place, mostly sad, distrustful people.  The point is that doing business in Russia isn't a crime, just ask HRC and her crew.  You and I don't agree on much, Orange County, but I've always respected your opinions.  I sure hope you're man enough to admit your misplaced trust when this thing implodes on you.   You can be SURE that I am.  If facts become available that actually prove the president was part of an effort to steal an election through mischief of any kind beyond the normal campaign research for dirt, then I WILL admit I was wrong to trust him.

Fairly sure I've already written a pre-emptive Mea Culpa for Comey.

My position on Trump/Russia collusion is that I don't believe there's a smoking gun for collusion currently in the public domain, or that there necessarily is one, to be found. I do believe there's enough smoke that it warrants investigation, however.

Above and beyond that -- Mueller's main brief is to investigate the Russian interference in the 2016 election. That's definitely an investigation that needs to happen.
 

11 minutes ago, and then said:

 It's my belief that the Progressive mindset and policies are attempting to destroy the Constitution that this nation was founded on and those who are cheering it on are going to find too late that when it all collapses, they're going down too.  

I suspect some progressives would counter claim the exact opposite.

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Tiggs
11 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Flynn is guilty for lying on his SF86 about being an agent of Turkey.  Considering his position in fighting terrorism, helping a NATO ally, it is hardly the act of treason.  Just a poor decision.  In most cases, this would be a reprimand or termination.  That’s why I said that everyone that fills out a SF86 or testifies in a 302 can be charged with perjury and all it takes is an administrative determination.  Mueller threaten to bring down the hammer if Flynn didn’t spill the beans.  Well, there is no beans to spill or action would have already been taken.  Flynn’s life is already ruined by Mueller.

It's not just Turkey Flynn lied about.

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Tiggs
1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

I mean...kudos to you again, Tiggs for combating it with such persistence. . 

I'm actually going to be pretty scarce on the internet as a whole, next week. Couple of sci-fi conventions to attend, and I've promised the wife I won't have my head buried in a computer screen the whole time.

I expect I'll catch back up on my return.

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GlitterRose
1 minute ago, Tiggs said:

I'm actually going to be pretty scarce on the internet as a whole, next week. Couple of sci-fi conventions to attend, and I've promised the wife I won't have my head buried in a computer screen the whole time.

I expect I'll catch back up on my return.

Well, you'll be missed. Especially in this thread. 

Come back soon!

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Tiggs said:

We can walk around the same circle again, if you like.

But I'm fairly sure that last time we did, you claimed my position wasn't a paradox, as the inverse applied to yourself.

*WE* are not walking around the same circle.  Only you are.  The question wasn’t about a paradox about me.  It was all about you.  And you deflected it again.  That’s ok, it’s Pavlovian in nature.  It just continues to reassert the Prog mindset.

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Astra.
10 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Thats good.

Yes Tatetopa, I think it's a good thing that people are able to vent and let off steam in regards to how they feel and / or see things concerning which side of the political fence they nestle. I guess people naturally disagree about politics for the same reason that they disagree about anything else.

Thing is tho (in which Iv'e been mulling over a little) do people really have the power to implement their stances ?

I think the unfortunate part is (that no matter what your views are). Any leader or party that is in power he /she can pretty much do as he / she pleases.

Even then there are no guarantees that your voice will be heard, because people (even in high places) can be and have been removed via various ethical or unethical means within the sub rosa political realm. Legal doesn't necessarily equate with what is ethical. I guess in the end, basically disagreeing over politics among the common folk is often an exercise in futility. 

 

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Agent0range
33 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Flynn is guilty for lying on his SF86 about being an agent of Turkey.  Considering his position in fighting terrorism, helping a NATO ally, it is hardly the act of treason.  Just a poor decision.  In most cases, this would be a reprimand or termination.  That’s why I said that everyone that fills out a SF86 or testifies in a 302 can be charged with perjury and all it takes is an administrative determination.  Mueller threaten to bring down the hammer if Flynn didn’t spill the beans.  Well, there is no beans to spill or action would have already been taken.  Flynn’s life is already ruined by Mueller.

 

And it should be ruined.  As should Kushner, and whoever else lied on their SF86.  If I lied on the multiple SF86's I filled out, and was caught, my life would also be ruined.  Yes, because I would have been terminated.  I don't have millions of dollars to fall back on, as do Kushner and Flynn.  Why should I be held to a higher standard than the highest parts of our government?

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RavenHawk
27 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

It's not just Turkey Flynn lied about.

He took several trips to Russia.  All but one was paid for by US firms.  That may have been a lapse of judgment but it is hardly an indication of a massive criminal activity to collude with Russia.

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RavenHawk
12 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

And it should be ruined.  As should Kushner, and whoever else lied on their SF86.  If I lied on the multiple SF86's I filled out, and was caught, my life would also be ruined.  Yes, because I would have been terminated.  I don't have millions of dollars to fall back on, as do Kushner and Flynn.  Why should I be held to a higher standard than the highest parts of our government?

For the umpteenth time, anyone who has filled out an SF86 or were interviewed by the FBI (302) has lied or have not been totally accurate.  That’s not intentional.  It’s just the nature of the beast. 

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.ZZ.
51 minutes ago, Astra. said:

Yes Tatetopa, I think it's a good thing that people are able to vent and let off steam in regards to how they feel and / or see things concerning which side of the political fence they nestle. I guess people naturally disagree about politics for the same reason that they disagree about anything else.

Thing is tho (in which Iv'e been mulling over a little) do people really have the power to implement their stances ?

I think the unfortunate part is (that no matter what your views are). Any leader or party that is in power he /she can pretty much do as he / she pleases.

Even then there are no guarantees that your voice will be heard, because people (even in high places) can be and have been removed via various ethical or unethical means within the sub rosa political realm. Legal doesn't necessarily equate with what is ethical. I guess in the end, basically disagreeing over politics among the common folk is often an exercise in futility. 

 

Well said Astra, thanks for being a voice of reason.

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Michelle
13 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

For the umpteenth time, anyone who has filled out an SF86 or were interviewed by the FBI (302) has lied or have not been totally accurate.  That’s not intentional.  It’s just the nature of the beast. 

 

It's not exactly like mishandling classified information.

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Tiggs
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

He took several trips to Russia.  All but one was paid for by US firms.  That may have been a lapse of judgment but it is hardly an indication of a massive criminal activity to collude with Russia.

Not claiming that it is. Just that it's something Flynn could be charged for, should Mueller wish to.

For massive criminal activity, you'd probably need to take a look at Flynn's involvement in the plot to kidnap the cleric Fethullah Gülen, and deliver him to Turkey.

Probably unrelated, but I believe Nunes accompanied Flynn to meet the Turkish foreign minister.

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ExpandMyMind
5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

So what pertinent part of the Dossier is true and verifiable?

For your reading pleasure (it's far more than you imagine, it seems):

http://www.annotateddossier.com

3 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Probably unrelated, but I believe Nunes accompanied Flynn to meet the Turkish foreign minister.

Likely why Nunes is diving about like he's barefoot on hot coals in an attempt to obstruct the investigation. 

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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bee
50 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

For your reading pleasure (it's far more than you imagine, it seems):

http://www.annotateddossier.com

 

so which bits (or bit) do you find true and verifiable - ?

 

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ExpandMyMind
20 minutes ago, bee said:

 

so which bits (or bit) do you find true and verifiable - ?

 

I suggest you read the whole thing, including the actual dossier. It's pretty well laid out.

I'm not going through the full thing for people who have clearly already made up their mind, but the link is there for anyone reading this who maybe doesn't know what to believe after reading the right-wing echo chamber that this forum has become.

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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bee
1 minute ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I suggest you read the whole thing, including the actual dossier. It's pretty well laid out.

 

just as I thought-  ^_^

you haven't read it ...or..... you have had a little look and you know that there is nothing very convincing in it...

nothing that you can pull out of the bag and go...... "there, see, true and verifiable"

 

 

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ExpandMyMind
7 minutes ago, bee said:

 

just as I thought-  ^_^

you haven't read it ...or..... you have had a little look and you know that there is nothing very convincing in it...

nothing that you can pull out of the bag and go...... "there, see, true and verifiable"

 

 

I read the entire thing last night. If you don't have time to read the dossier parts, you can just read the summaries at the bottom of most pages. It shouldn't take you too long. If you're actually interested, that is.

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bee
14 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I read the entire thing last night. If you don't have time to read the dossier parts, you can just read the summaries at the bottom of most pages. It shouldn't take you too long. If you're actually interested, that is.

 

yes I know... I did read the summary parts - that's why I was interested if you would dare to pick a bit out... :D

 

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