Kismit Posted January 31, 2018 #1451 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: No that is my point. If you look across human culture form the iron/steel age; japan Europe and the middle east, where iron was turned into swords the SAME mythologies arose The characters names might be difernt even the god might be different but the story was consistent eg a gift from the gods, special peole imbued with skills and arcane knowldge A magical process using god metal, often from the skies Interestingly there were also differences in the processes and quality of steel making. eg damascan steel and japanese steel were superior when made into swords Really? You mean mythologies like the Ice Giants, The Rainbow serpent, Maui and the fish and Adam and Eve would all come back the same. The way a culture describes how a fact takes place is the begining of it's science. Give that fable 100 years and it will be someones thesis. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultima Weapon Posted January 31, 2018 #1452 Share Posted January 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: 1 yes that is what i got from your post You allow prior disbelief, based on prior experience to colour any new experience you have. 2. A statement of fact is not arrogant. Maybe it upsets you that your non existent god hasn't manifested to you Why should it worry you? More seriously a high percentage of Americans claim at least one case of physical manifestation of a form of god such as an angel and a majority believe in them. The point is that i am not alone or unique or special. I am one of millions if not billions, of humans with a similar experience (in part because of who i am i know personally a dozen people with similar experiences with god or its avatars such as angels I've read many more personal accounts of angels and god saving the lives of people Again, because of my experience, i believe this is the natural and normal relationship between humans and god and it is those cut off from god who are living a non natural/normal life . Maybe it is not god ignoring people. but people ignoring god ? After all, you have just said, basically, that you would not even accept god if he manifested in front of you, but would find some justification for disbelief 3. I don't have any problem with disbelief in unicorns (nor belief in unicorns) because i have never encountered a unicorn, and so they may or may not exist. There is no doubt, based on the physical evidences of my life, that a powerful and caring entity humans call god exists, and interacts physically with me. What I get from what little time I've had to read your posts so far, is that you arrogantly seek to 'educate' people on your own personal experiences of what you perceive to be 'god', pretending that your epiphanies are greater then the epiphanies of other people, by means of overwhelming them with constant walls of text in every single spiritually-based thread, that serve no purpose but to inflate your already massively enlarged ego, so as to overcompensate for what I would assume to be an otherwise mundane and/or tumultuous life. Some one correct me if I'm wrong. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted January 31, 2018 #1453 Share Posted January 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said: The Earth is estimated to be only about five billion years old... There are trillions of worlds that are older than ours. They have people there too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauriOra Posted January 31, 2018 #1454 Share Posted January 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kismit said: Maui and the fish and Adam and Eve would all come back the same Yep.. Not Same Bodies, Same Soul. Re Incarnation.. And Our Taniwha Exists...!!! No Mythology... She's Back..!!! Mo.xx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted January 31, 2018 #1455 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, Will Due said: There are trillions of worlds that are older than ours. They have people there too. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted January 31, 2018 #1456 Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) It just occured to me. It's a good idea that God isn't just an idea. And that's a fact. Edited January 31, 2018 by Will Due 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 31, 2018 #1457 Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Kismit said: Really? You mean mythologies like the Ice Giants, The Rainbow serpent, Maui and the fish and Adam and Eve would all come back the same. The way a culture describes how a fact takes place is the begining of it's science. Give that fable 100 years and it will be someones thesis. Yes IF you removed the knowldge of how to make steel, and then it was regained, the mythologies would come back basically the same. Involvement of gods A special ore form the gods, heroes with skills who could work the steel Often stolen knowledge from the gods themselves. We know this because it has occurred, as knowledge has been gained by different peoples in different places in the past. As i said the names of characters might change but the basics of the story would be the same This would also be true for steel making itself, In each place the process would be slightly different. It would occur because all human minds work the same way, and use the same processes to explain the unknown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_sword It is probable that the roots of the sentient weapon myths stem from ancient peoples belief that sword making and metallurgy was in fact a magical process. Through the fires of the forge (fire was also given spiritual connotations) a lump of earth was transformed into a shiny usable object that could be hammered into many shapes. Extending further from the transformation of ore into metal, the difficulty of actually obtaining a quality blade; which took intense concentration and skill added to its esoteric qualities. While any blacksmithcould manufacture a knife or an axehead only a swordsmith could create a high quality sword. The secrets of doing so were jealously guarded as well as formulas for alloys. The skill necessary to forge a balanced blade - one which is not too brittle or too soft and able to hold a usefully sharp edge - in the age before automated machines, blast furnaces, and the knowledge of molecular chemistry made the creation of a sword seem almost miraculous. A few degrees too hot or too cold within a very limited temperature range, which could only be discerned by the glowing hue of a hot billet, could make or break a sword. A lack of expertise in knowing when and how to apply carbon and flux and quench the blade could ruin weeks of work. Thus the swordsmith almost felt like he was one with his work, giving the process his complete devotion of concentration and thought. This led to the belief that he was actually imbuing the blade with an essence of his spirit. In Japan, the swordsmiths were so concerned with this belief that they would undergo purification rituals and meditation before even attempting to start a new blade, for fear that they might inadvertently create an evil sword. The Vikings prized their swords above all other things, handing them down from generation to generation and giving them names. The value of the blade was not only determined by its quality but also by how many battles that it was used in. Polynesian people such as the Māori also had comparable reverence for their weapons. They believed a weapon contained a spiritual force called mana and that the weapon held the spirits of its maker, its line of owners and also stole the spirits of those it killed. These weapons where highly prized for their mana and cherished as heirlooms. The Samurai of Japan believed that their swords had their own soul that could possess them. It was not the wielder but their swords that desired to kill; Samurai were just the instrument that the sword used to complete that task. Since most of them were Buddhists (a religion that finds violence and murder abhorent), that train of thought gave them some peace of mind in their killing vocation.[citation needed] Edited January 31, 2018 by Mr Walker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted January 31, 2018 #1458 Share Posted January 31, 2018 39 minutes ago, MauriOra said: Yes it is Helpful.. My People are My People, But We are All Peoples of the Lands.. I'm not making this a Nativity Case, Because that is Raw, I Don't want to Go there .. And to the Dude in his English Home, I can't speak to Him. Yes The European Peoples , Made Stuff, But they Killed stuff too, .. Thats a Fact .. Did Many Modern People Embrace, or Were they Just Not Fully Informed, and Believed it was the only Choice .. Because its Not.. And Don't Forget that Legal System, that has Kept us all Enslaved.. This Modern World is A Rat Race , With the Haves and Have nots.... People Starving and Suffering Everywhere, Here in The NZ too .. No Modernisation is A Killer .!!!. I Know healers, who have healed wonders, through Energy .. All Surgery's aren't Successful Either.. Human Error, ... Mo..xx My point was. We live in a world where we are fortunate to have access to many different types of knowledge. My Japanese phone helps me connect with people via an internet server created and designed somewhere else. It's a working miracle that without written language we would not be able to participate in. Books are important. You say you love Outlander, have you read the books? Could you tell me the science of time Travel Diana Gabolden uses to explain how it works without having to go back to the books? People could not have made the T.V. series if it wasn't for written language. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted January 31, 2018 #1459 Share Posted January 31, 2018 If God was just an idea, then you couldn't deny him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted January 31, 2018 Author #1460 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Will Due said: It just occured to me. It's a good idea that God isn't just an idea. And that's a fact. Then you can present evidence of god, correct? Are we talking about a subjective god instead. Your idea of god. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauriOra Posted January 31, 2018 #1461 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Mystic Crusader said: He's Right.. There is. Many Many Galaxies, with Inhabitants .. The PLEIADES is One Such Place.. Mo..xx 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted January 31, 2018 #1462 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, XenoFish said: Then you can present evidence of god, correct? Are we talking about a subjective god instead. Your idea of god. See post #1479. What that post says is the evidence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted January 31, 2018 Author #1463 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Will Due said: If God was just an idea, then you couldn't deny him. Just now, Will Due said: See post #1479. What that post says is the evidence. Please try again. With something more substantial. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted January 31, 2018 #1464 Share Posted January 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Yes IF you removed the knowldge of how to make steel, and then it was regained, the mythologies would come back basically the same. Involvement of gods A special ore form the gods, heroes with skills who could work the steel Often stolen knowledge from the gods themselves. We know this because it has occurred, as knowledge has been gained by different peoples in different places in the past. As i said the names of characters might change but the basics of the story would be the same This would also be true for steel making itself, In each place the process would be slightly different. It would occur because all human minds work the same way, and use the same processes to explain the unknown So the First Norse God decided to sacrifice the First Ice Giant to make it's body the earth, it's bones the Mountains and it's blood the oceans. You believe this exact same origin stoey would be recreated. Even after it was not recreated anywhere else in the world over millenia, other than among the Norsemen. You believe this exact story would still somehow be created. That is like saying that 100 monkeys with a hundred typewritters would eventually tap out Hamlet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauriOra Posted January 31, 2018 #1465 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kismit said: My point was. We live in a world where we are furrunate to have access to many different types of knowledge. My Japanese phone helps me connect with people via an internet server created and designed somewhere else. It's a working miracle that without written language we would not be able to participate in. Books are important. You say you love Outlander, have you read the books? Could you tell me the science of time Travel Diana Gabolden uses to explain how it works without having to go back to the books? People could not have made the T.V. series if it wasn't for written language. Ok, Humans Can Time Travel..!! ... I Do Love Me Some..Outlander..!!!hee hee hee.. I Love Books, I Love Phs, I Love Lots and Thats Great, But it is Not Necessary.. This is Our Programmed Minds, Having a. Panic Attack, Chicken Little, the sky is falling, the sky is falling.. It is Nice, but its Not Our Sole Existence.. We Have Our Energetic Side too.. This Supercedes the Physical, just like The Energetic Universal Realm Supercedes this Earth .. This Knowledge has Been Forced Out of us through ...... Yip ...Indoctrination, and Control ... Mo..xx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrius Posted January 31, 2018 #1466 Share Posted January 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Please try again. With something more substantial. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted January 31, 2018 #1467 Share Posted January 31, 2018 27 minutes ago, XenoFish said: I have learned nothing from you. You have not brought any information of value to me. I ask you questions and you only actually answers after it has been presented many times. When you do post you make blanket and unfounded statements and it's beginning to look more like a ridged fundamentalist view. Something I personally dislike. I'm not hating on you, just point out my observations. Every since I started interacting with you it has been less than enjoyable. In fact it feels futile. Again, nothing personal. Bingo. 23 minutes ago, Ultima Weapon said: What I get from what little time I've had to read your posts so far, is that you arrogantly seek to 'educate' people on your own personal experiences of what you perceive to be 'god', pretending that your epiphanies are greater then the epiphanies of other people, by means of overwhelming them with constant walls of text in every single spiritually-based thread, that serve no purpose but to inflate your already massively enlarged ego, so as to overcompensate for what I would assume to be an otherwise mundane and/or tumultuous life. Some one correct me if I'm wrong. Double Bingo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted January 31, 2018 #1468 Share Posted January 31, 2018 If I am having to temove a post because it violates the rules or guidelines of the forum. Please do not re-post it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khol Posted January 31, 2018 #1469 Share Posted January 31, 2018 29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Humans cannot live happily and completely without faith and belief, any more than they can, without food and shelter, although a few manage a pale imitation of what a human life can be You are an incredibly naive and pretentious person oozing with arrogance. Comments like this just destroy your credibility.I have no need for a god at all. I know many many people who hold the same view . We enjoy a great full life. We are humble and giving individuals. Treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated. Respect our enviorment and carry hope for future generations. In your small little mind you somehow feel a god is a requirement for understanding these basic principles yet they are innate abilities that have no need for one. Im realizing these long winded emails of yours are feeble attempts at masking how little you actually know 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 31, 2018 #1470 Share Posted January 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Ultima Weapon said: What I get from what little time I've had to read your posts so far, is that you arrogantly seek to 'educate' people on your own personal experiences of what you perceive to be 'god', pretending that your epiphanies are greater then the epiphanies of other people, by means of overwhelming them with constant walls of text in every single spiritually-based thread, that serve no purpose but to inflate your already massively enlarged ego, so as to overcompensate for what I would assume to be an otherwise mundane and/or tumultuous life. Some one correct me if I'm wrong. I don't pretended anything.I just describe very real and physical events in my life and the power they give me, the changes they work in me, and the protection they offer me. What others make of these will be determined by their own world views, beliefs, prejudices and biases. For a long time i was almost alone in my position on this forum. Now there are half a dozen people with similar experiences, knowledge and understandings. Yes i think we could make the world a much better place by changing the behaviours of humanity being more spiritual and less materialistic. and yes i see a role in at least educating people in a better way, but that is the limit of my role. People without a strong sense of belief in something, don't have anything to offer to improve the world or humanity, except in the valuable area of science and technology. All human behaviours, however, are based on our inner ethics, moralities, values and beliefs, ie the spiritual side of us. I dont do walls of text so much anymore, but the problem is with other people's reading and comprehension skills, which i now try to make allowance for. Most people aren't trained to read and decode a page of typed text in a few seconds, and struggle with complex paragraph structures. They don't think very deeply or complexly and so need information in short bits . My life is precisely as you read about it here. 5% magical and 95% mundane. Extremely interesting but in a "normal" sort of way. Try raising a dozen homeless kids, and caring for two parents with altzheiners requiring constant care, while you have two teenage parents, and two young babies in your house and oyu will see what i mean by "normal but interesting". However one flavours the other and thus my life is perfect and complete. I wish that others could have the same quality of life and never know depression, betrayal , anxiety, fear, anger, envy, jealously; but only happiness, peace of mind, and total empowerment . The purpose is this. ANY /ALL humans can find such a way to live, not by living just like me but by finding, strengthening, and learning to use, the qualities inside themselves and becoming connected to a greater power outside of them via either faith or experience.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted January 31, 2018 #1471 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, khol said: You are an incredibly naive and pretentious person oozing with arrogance. Comments like this just destroy your credibility.I have no need for a god at all. I know many many people who hold the same view . We enjoy a great full life. We are humble and giving individuals. Treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated. Respect our enviorment and carry hope for future generations. In your small little mind you somehow feel a god is a requirement for understanding these basic principles yet they are innate abilities that have no need for one. Im realizing these long winded emails of yours are feeble attempts at masking how little you actually know No. I lived as an atheist and a moral secular humanist until i was about 22. I know what i am talking about Those without this connection to a god through faith or knowledge or a priority for a spiritual element in life are those who do NOT understand or appreciate the difference Humans are cognitive evolved to require both material and spiritual sustenance, as any psychologist will tell you To be fulfilled and truly happy a human needs to have ALL their needs, both material and psychological, met, It is a result of evolution on the human mind And it is why, even today, 90% of humans profess a belief in a sense of spirituality, and/ or a power greater than themselves WHY treat others as you wish to be treated ? WHY show any respect for the environment ? the answers are cognitively spiritual or value based in nature because we can think in that way. Humans do not have innate values They are learned and culturally specific 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrius Posted January 31, 2018 #1472 Share Posted January 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: It is a result of evolution on the human mind And it is why, even today, 90% of humans profess a belief in a sense of spirituality, and/ or a power greater than themselves True, but this percentage is melting down proportionaly with the level of indoctrination into materialism through media and "education." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted February 1, 2018 #1473 Share Posted February 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said: The reason i respect others is that i see them as souls not as biological machines which will turn to dust and wont exist anymore. I wonder why isnt it same to you do destroy computer and human? To you both are just machines without a soul. Not having a soul does not remove humanity. It is a reason to celebrate diversity and share achievements. Seeing how knowledge changes this world for the better is a driving force that makes one embrace cultural diversity and knowledge. To marvel at how much one can accomplish in this short span of consciousness is something to be grateful for and marvel at, it is a privilege. A reason for celebration and a reason to keep going and strive harder. I don't see anything noble about sitting on your behind proclaiming to have esoteric knowledge that anyone who has so much as looked at history can see is just a bunch of embellished tall tales exaggerated from some ancient survival strategies. I think what you have illustrated is why that path of self enlightenment is nothing more than self delusion. Behaving yourself purely for a reward of immortality strikes me as a very selfish act. A secular view applauds achievement, whereas from what ii am seeing from the posting here is one challenges these ancient ideals things get ugly and resort to insult, which drags everyone down. I don't think that is enlightened one little bit, seems rather primitive and overbearing to me. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted February 1, 2018 #1474 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, simplybill said: You're correct, Karl Marx said it first, and Lenin later expanded on it. I removed the accreditation in my earlier post, but here are the quotes along with the sources: "Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man." Vladimir Lenin, Novaya Zhizn No. 28, December 3, 1905 Marxists Internet Archive --------------------------------------- "Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. ... Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. Karl Marx, Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right, Collected Works, v. 3 You're preaching to the choir. I heard all that from the campus commies and armchair Bolsheviks in the '70s. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khol Posted February 1, 2018 #1475 Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: No. I lived as an atheist and a moral secular humanist until i was about 22. I know what i am talking about Those without this connection to a god through faith or knowledge or a priority for a spiritual element in life are those who do NOT understand or appreciate the difference Humans are cognitive evolved to require both material and spiritual sustenance, as any psychologist will tell you To be fulfilled and truly happy a human needs to have ALL their needs, both material and psychological, met, It is a result of evolution on the human mind And it is why, even today, 90% of humans profess a belief in a sense of spirituality, and/ or a power greater than themselves WHY treat others as you wish to be treated ? WHY show any respect for the environment ? the answers are cognitively spiritual or value based in nature because we can think in that way. Humans do not have innate values They are learned and culturally specific This brings us to the begining of the whole idea of god and how it manifested. The true beginning. The early hominid at the dawn of human awareness. Our early ancestors had no way of knowing or understanding there natural world.This sense of self in which it began to experience would have forced the brain to make some form of conclusion to its existance. Without any kind of modern science to go by a creator or creation event would have been a logical direction. How else to explain the earth tremours and lighting bolts.When did actual human cognition occurr? For the sake of a number lets say 250000 yrs ago.Throughout thousands of generations this belief structure becomes embedded within our pysche and solidifies there for thousands of years. Can you say hard wired? Possibly to a point. With the advent of modern science that wiring is starting fray and short out. Our true place in the cosmos is becoming realized. What you call spirituality is just a remnant feeling of your ancestors distant past 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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