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XenoFish

God is an Idea

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Illyrius

Science is just modern mythology, it doesn't and it will never have a final answer to existance, only pure reason and logic can certainly say that something can not arise from nothing, and that fact alone is enough to objectively see a Cosmos as a pure mystery.

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Kismit

I believe that again we are discussing many culturally different ideas of God.

God as a sentient, all knowing, all powerful, anthropomorphic being.

God  with a plan.

Or God as the Cosmos.

The sentient God in my opinion is a reflective contrast based on the stage of magikal thinking and idealism of youth. It's a reflection of how we would view our veey special self. What we would want to exsist if we could create the perfect being.

That in itself is so close to what we would imagine, that the perfection of the idea makes me think, if it's too good to be true, it quite possibly is.

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Hammerclaw
6 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Science is just modern mythology, it doesn't and it will never have a final answer to existance, only pure reason and logic can certainly say that something can not arise from nothing, and that fact alone is enough to objectively see a Cosmos as a pure mystery.

No it isn't. You live in a gigantic artifact called civilization whose foundation is constructed on it's principals. You are right that the Cosmos is still full of mystery.

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Illyrius
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

No it isn't. You live in a gigantic artifact called civilization whose foundation is constructed on it's principals. You are right that the Cosmos is still full of mystery.

Call this around me what you like, i call it anticivilization.

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Sherapy
37 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Hi Sheri,

I didn't quite follow your last sentence, it's my impression that there are billions of people who believe their idea of god is real and it's not once in a blue moon.  I may be misinterpreting the last comma though, maybe it means that of the many people who believe their idea of god is real, once in a blue moon someone takes it too far and gets lost in it.

Good call. I stand corrected. 

What you said. 

 

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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, Kismit said:

I believe that again we are discussing many culturally different ideas of God.

God as a sentient, all knowing, all powerful, anthropomorphic being.

God  with a plan.

Or God as the Cosmos.

The sentient God in my opinion is a reflective contrast based on the stage of magikal thinking and idealism of youth. It's a reflection of how we would view our veey special self. What we would want to exsist if we coyld create the perfect.

Wow, I love the last two sentences. 

I think in the case where god is a buddy, or a bestie it fills a void or a need. IMHO

 

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Hammerclaw
3 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Call this around me what you like, i call it anticivilization.

Really? Flip the light switch and nothing happens, turn on the shower and there is no water, or--horrors--lose your internet and tell me you won't miss it.

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Illyrius
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Really? Flip the light switch and nothing happens, turn on the shower and there is no water, or--horrors--lose your internet and tell me you won't miss it.

Material progress is undeniable but so is moral and spiritual decline - so which is more important?

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Sherapy
50 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

The same thing you make real effort towards I guess.

 

 

Will, I do not follow.

Can you clarify? 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

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Hammerclaw
2 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Material progress is undeniable but so is moral and spiritual decline - so which is more important?

Show me any age that didn't bewail it's moral and spiritual decline.

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Illyrius
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Show me any age that didn't bewail it's moral and spiritual decline.

All civilizations pass through that final stage of decline in their cycle of "life" - in that sense you are right.

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Will Due
2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Will, I do not follow.

Can you clarify? 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

 

There is effort, and then there's real effort.

One isn't as productive as the other.

I'm pretty sure we're all basically doing the same thing.

 

 

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Hammerclaw
Just now, Mr. Argon said:

All civilizations pass through that final stage of decline in their cycle of "life" - in that sense you are right.

There's nothing final about it. It's a recurring phenomenon in all civilizations. "Todays generation is going to hell in a handbasket" is a common theme throughout the history of every society. I attribute it to the culture shock of change.

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

There is effort, and then there's real effort.

One isn't as productive as the other.

I'm pretty sure we're all basically doing the same thing.

 

 

I am even more lost now. Lol

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Illyrius
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

There's nothing final about it. It's a recurring phenomenon in all civilizations. "Todays generation is going to hell in a handbasket" is a common theme throughout the history of every society. I attribute it to the culture shock of change.

Well it is.. Greeks and Romans also said it often.. but finally when things got too corrupted it actually meant a decline for both of these civilizations.

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Mr. Argon said:

Well it is.. Greeks and Romans also said it often.. but finally when things got too corrupted it actually meant a decline for both of these civilizations.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. A walk down the streets of Pompeii or Herculaneum shows that rather clearly. One civilization begat a hundred others, taking with them some of the best it had to offer, laws, political concepts, the letters on this page, or God.

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Podo
19 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Call this around me what you like, i call it anticivilization.

Then you don't know what civilisation is. We have technology and medical knowledge directly as a result of the scientific method. Humans have always employed the scientific method; we have tried a thing, seen that it works, and continued doing it. That's it, that's science. It isn't mythology, it's science. If someone can do a thing and have a repeatable result, then that's a scientifically-proven process. You can see these everywhere you look, in everything. Mythology doesn't build, it doesn't create, and it doesn't innovate. It doesn't invent medical procedures to extend lives, it doesn't invent computers to allow us to leave the planet and explore the solar system, and it doesn't invent methods for transportation and food generation that allow humanity to live in the most peaceful, educated time in all of human history. Mythology doesn't invent or innovate; observation and experimentation innovates. Innovation keeps us going, while mythology keeps us the same.

But I mean, you're welcome to go back to living in a bush with no treated water, shelter, or electricity. Your life expectancy will be 30-ish, but at least you won't have to interact in the civilisation and science that you hate so much.

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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

There is effort, and then there's real effort.

One isn't as productive as the other.

I'm pretty sure we're all basically doing the same thing.

 

 

All effort produces something, even if that effort is futile. Even if that effort leads to failure, you at least learned something.

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The more things change, the more they stay the same. A walk down the streets of Pompeii or Herculaneum shows that rather clearly. One civilization begat a hundred others, taking with them some of the best it had to offer, laws, political concepts, the letters on this page, or God.

Same story. Different plays, different settings. Yet, it's a never ending constantly repeating cycle. And like were are now, people discussing the same things. 

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

How this idea of god can be a good and a very bad thing.

That's always something I'm torn on, overall I'm really not convinced it is in total a bad thing.  There are plenty of very bad things ideas of god cause or exacerbate of course, and I definitely don't buy the idea that religious ideas are responsible for most of the good things about our civilization.  But I've always liked this quote by EO Wilson, I agree with it and to me it explains a lot about several topics (religion, politics, sociology, etc):

"We have created a Star Wars civilization, with Stone Age emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. We thrash about. We are terribly confused by the mere fact of our existence, and a danger to ourselves and to the rest of life.” 

I think it's the 'Stone Age emotions' part that stands out to me.  I'm no anthropologist but I know evolution works very slowly usually; I think we are essentially identical in intellectual capacity and our emotions as our ancestors 50,000 years ago who were still banging Neanderthals.  But whoa, our world and lives have changed so much, especially for us living today when the rate of change has been the highest. And we try and grapple with it all with the same brain and feelings as cavemen.

I can see how ideas of god can help salve that tension, I agree with Wilson that we are confused by the fact of our existence, including religious people, but I think it can be lessened for some by religious beliefs.  I cannot deny that religious belief can make for some very good people, I'm lucky enough to say that most of the people I personally know that are religious are probably better people because of it or at least no worse. But I know also that my sample is skewed.

As this thread has been rather I guess 'touchy', I'll clarify that I'm not infantilizing religious people as if they just believe things because they can't emotionally deal with reality or something like that; it's more that I'm infantilizing all of humanity including myself.  When I think of cavemen I think to some extent of savagery and tribalism, which I think partially has an emotional impetus, the same emotions we all have now also (at least for us mere mortals who don't have absolute total control of them with our highly advanced mind (*cough*)).  Their environment required savagery but I wonder the extent to which the underlying emotions are identical as us today, and in our civilized society manifest in other less obvious ways.  Overall I'm unsure to what extent we should hope that overall ideas of god dissipate right now, at least until we hopefully evolve emotionally as a species a little more.

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Hammerclaw
2 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That's always something I'm torn on, overall I'm really not convinced it is in total a bad thing.  There are plenty of very bad things ideas of god cause or exacerbate of course, and I definitely don't buy the idea that religious ideas are responsible for most of the good things about our civilization.  But I've always liked this quote by EO Wilson, I agree with it and to me it explains a lot about several topics (religion, politics, sociology, etc):

"We have created a Star Wars civilization, with Stone Age emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. We thrash about. We are terribly confused by the mere fact of our existence, and a danger to ourselves and to the rest of life.” 

I think it's the 'Stone Age emotions' part that stands out to me.  I'm no anthropologist but I know evolution works very slowly usually; I think we are essentially identical in intellectual capacity and our emotions as our ancestors 50,000 years ago who were still banging Neanderthals.  But whoa, our world and lives have changed so much, especially for us living today when the rate of change has been the highest. And we try and grapple with it all with the same brain and feelings as cavemen.

I can see how ideas of god can help salve that tension, I agree with Wilson that we are confused by the fact of our existence, including religious people, but I think it can be lessened for some by religious beliefs.  I cannot deny that religious belief can make for some very good people, I'm lucky enough to say that most of the people I personally know that are religious are probably better people because of it or at least no worse. But I know also that my sample is skewed.

As this thread has been rather I guess 'touchy', I'll clarify that I'm not infantilizing religious people as if they just believe things because they can't emotionally deal with reality or something like that; it's more that I'm infantilizing all of humanity including myself.  When I think of cavemen I think to some extent of savagery and tribalism, which I think partially has an emotional impetus, the same emotions we all have now also (at least for us mere mortals who don't have absolute total control of them with our highly advanced mind (*cough*)).  Their environment required savagery but I wonder the extent to which the underlying emotions are identical as us today, and in our civilized society manifest in other less obvious ways.  Overall I'm unsure to what extent we should hope that overall ideas of god dissipate right now, at least until we hopefully evolve emotionally as a species a little more.

Different only in the technological sophistication with which we express our tribalism and, yes, our savagery, if one defines savagery as making war on one's own species.

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I cannot deny that religious belief can make for some very good people, I'm lucky enough to say that most of the people I personally know that are religious are probably better people because of it or at least no worse. But I know also that my sample is skewed.

This goes right back to how belief affects people. I feel that it really depends on the person and the ideology. If they adhere to a 'cliff notes' version of it are the full deal. A spiritual belief (I feel/think) tends to amplify a persons default nature. Based largely on their idea/concept of god. So someone who is naturally has a good nature, might stay that way or become even kinder. However....the problem is how it will affect them. It's really a people problem and what they do with an idea. I can completely see how someone praying can be relieved of stress and worry once they've gotten their emotions out. The therapeutic aspect of a religious belief. I can see prayer as a means of organizing one's thoughts and increasing their inner strength and motivation. I can see this very same concept lead to horrors too. It again, depends on the person. 

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Kismit
46 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

There's nothing final about it. It's a recurring phenomenon in all civilizations. "Todays generation is going to hell in a handbasket" is a common theme throughout the history of every society. I attribute it to the culture shock of change.

I couldn't agree more. Our ideas of what is moraly and spiritually acceptable is changing. Ethics is evolutionary. 

I live in a country which is currently being run by an un-wed mother. An antiquated view would shun eveeything in that sentence as immoral, but I would argue it would be immoral to remove her from her job for any of those reasons.

It's not a moral decline it's an ethical revolution.

 

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Hammerclaw
10 minutes ago, Kismit said:

I couldn't agree more. Our ideas of what is moraly and spiritually acceptable is changing. Ethics is evolutionary. 

I live in a country which is currently being run by an un-wed mother. An antiquated view would shun eveeything in that sentence as immoral, but I would argue it would be immoral to remove her from her job for any of those reasons.

It's not a moral decline it's an ethical revolutiin.

 

She wears her Scarlet Letter with pride, as she should. If one wishes to talk in the aspects of sin, moral judgmentalism is equally one. There should be no social recrimination against "fallen women" anymore than there is against "fallen fathers" who scatter their seed without thought or responsibility.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
21 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That's always something I'm torn on, overall I'm really not convinced it is in total a bad thing.  There are plenty of very bad things ideas of god cause or exacerbate of course, and I definitely don't buy the idea that religious ideas are responsible for most of the good things about our civilization.  But I've always liked this quote by EO Wilson, I agree with it and to me it explains a lot about several topics (religion, politics, sociology, etc):

"We have created a Star Wars civilization, with Stone Age emotions, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. We thrash about. We are terribly confused by the mere fact of our existence, and a danger to ourselves and to the rest of life.” 

I think it's the 'Stone Age emotions' part that stands out to me.  I'm no anthropologist but I know evolution works very slowly usually; I think we are essentially identical in intellectual capacity and our emotions as our ancestors 50,000 years ago who were still banging Neanderthals.  But whoa, our world and lives have changed so much, especially for us living today when the rate of change has been the highest. And we try and grapple with it all with the same brain and feelings as cavemen.

I can see how ideas of god can help salve that tension, I agree with Wilson that we are confused by the fact of our existence, including religious people, but I think it can be lessened for some by religious beliefs.  I cannot deny that religious belief can make for some very good people, I'm lucky enough to say that most of the people I personally know that are religious are probably better people because of it or at least no worse. But I know also that my sample is skewed.

As this thread has been rather I guess 'touchy', I'll clarify that I'm not infantilizing religious people as if they just believe things because they can't emotionally deal with reality or something like that; it's more that I'm infantilizing all of humanity including myself.  When I think of cavemen I think to some extent of savagery and tribalism, which I think partially has an emotional impetus, the same emotions we all have now also (at least for us mere mortals who don't have absolute total control of them with our highly advanced mind (*cough*)).  Their environment required savagery but I wonder the extent to which the underlying emotions are identical as us today, and in our civilized society manifest in other less obvious ways.  Overall I'm unsure to what extent we should hope that overall ideas of god dissipate right now, at least until we hopefully evolve emotionally as a species a little more.

Great point LG, I think my generation has done a much better job of encouraging not only the acknowledgement of emotions. But teaching our young the value and purpose of emotions. 

I think the way may men and women were raised in the fifties and earlier has not been good for us as a humanity. 

Now, we are raising our young with love and respect, we aren’t hitting our young and calling it loving behavior, it just is so new we won’t see the effects till this generation starts to have kids. 

I hope I have made a tiny impact in a better direction; I have given my heart and soul to emphasizimg kindness, compassion, empathy, and love. We shall see. 

 

 

 

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