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Captain Risky

Israeli air force: F-15 or F-35

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Captain Risky

Israeli Air Force Leaning Toward Upgraded F-15 Over F-35 for Next Fighter Jet Acquisition

An Israeli F-15

 

The Israel Air Force is to decide in a few months between purchasing a third squadron of F-35 fighter jets or the F-15I, which, while less advanced, has other advantages.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israeli-air-force-leaning-toward-f-15-over-f-35-for-next-acquisition-1.5769565

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Vlad the Mighty

Well , since the only conceivable threat there might be that has any kind of effective air force would be Iran, whose air force consists of much, much older F-4s and F-14s) you'd be able to get (comparatively) many more F-15 s for your money. For the main thing that they mainly use them for (bombing Palestinians, or sneaking in and opportunistically bombing Syria while their attention is concentrated elsewhere), F-15s would be more than effective enough.

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Captain Risky
56 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Well , since the only conceivable threat there might be that has any kind of effective air force would be Iran, whose air force consists of much, much older F-4s and F-14s) you'd be able to get (comparatively) many more F-15 s for your money. For the main thing that they mainly use them for (bombing Palestinians, or sneaking in and opportunistically bombing Syria while their attention is concentrated elsewhere), F-15s would be more than effective enough.

you hit the nail on the head. Israel's enemies are technologically inferior. you don't really need stealth to bomb something thats defended by AK-47's and been bombed a dozen times already. i think that the F-15 is favoured more for its payload and long range. so it looks like the IDF is looking for a light tactical bomber able to be assigned nuclear duties more than a fighter and interceptor. 

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Piney

 

2 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Well , since the only conceivable threat there might be that has any kind of effective air force would be Iran, whose air force consists of much, much older F-4s 

Plus Iran is busy using them as low attack aircraft on ISIS because it still has a gun.

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Sir Smoke aLot

Considering that IDF reported how one of those F35's was rendered inoperable after crash with bird ( even tho such events were one of the major priorities in the project and safety regarding F35 ) i can understand IDF's concerns.

Link to article here.

Fun fact, this report of 'bird encounter' came about hour or two after two of F35's were doing operations against Damascus and SAA reported that it's old S-200 AA battery hit one of two IDF fighters.

Another fun fact. Those F35 are free to Israel as part of aid from America, aid without which Israel can't survive as they are not wealthy but very poor country which can't pay for it.

Based on what i learned about these mentioned events and if S-200 really did strike one of the F35's... Then IDF better go with upgraded F-15s.

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RoofGardener
10 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Considering that IDF reported how one of those F35's was rendered inoperable after crash with bird ( even tho such events were one of the major priorities in the project and safety regarding F35 ) i can understand IDF's concerns.

Link to article here.

Fun fact, this report of 'bird encounter' came about hour or two after two of F35's were doing operations against Damascus and SAA reported that it's old S-200 AA battery hit one of two IDF fighters.

Another fun fact. Those F35 are free to Israel as part of aid from America, aid without which Israel can't survive as they are not wealthy but very poor country which can't pay for it.

Based on what i learned about these mentioned events and if S-200 really did strike one of the F35's... Then IDF better go with upgraded F-15s.

Well, if an F35 survived a proximity explosion from an S-200  - to the extend of successfully landing under control - then I would suggest this is a MAJOR credit to the F35.

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Sir Smoke aLot
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, if an F35 survived a proximity explosion from an S-200  - to the extend of successfully landing under control - then I would suggest this is a MAJOR credit to the F35.

That sounds reasonable but if we look at it deeper - fact is that F-35 is 5th generation. S-200 was designed in 1950's.

Considering that Russia is developing ( or it has already developed ) S-500 then i would suggest that this story is a major discredit towards military industry and billions spent to make the F-35 by using hard earned money of American citizens.

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RoofGardener

Dynamite was invented in the 1800's, but it still goes BANG !

All the more reason to believe that it was a bird strike, and not a missile attack :)

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Captain Risky
17 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That sounds reasonable but if we look at it deeper - fact is that F-35 is 5th generation. S-200 was designed in 1950's.

Considering that Russia is developing ( or it has already developed ) S-500 then i would suggest that this story is a major discredit towards military industry and billions spent to make the F-35 by using hard earned money of American citizens.

good find on the S-200 missile strike. another angle on this S-200 episode is that of the radar. the 40 year old radar was either tweaked or replaced with something more modern. either way, if true, stealth has been rendered obsolete and now Russian SAM's can control airspace just as well and if not better than fighters. 

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Captain Risky
17 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Dynamite was invented in the 1800's, but it still goes BANG !

All the more reason to believe that it was a bird strike, and not a missile attack :)

bird strikes are common for military jets. many airforces even employ falconers and shooters to keep birds away from airfields. so i wouldn't discount a bird strike. by the same token if a missile strike was responsible would the Israelis want it known that the pride and joy of their airforce is vulnerable to a 40 year of Syrian SAM 

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Sir Smoke aLot
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

good find on the S-200 missile strike. another angle on this S-200 episode is that of the radar. the 40 year old radar was either tweaked or replaced with something more modern. either way, if true, stealth has been rendered obsolete and now Russian SAM's can control airspace just as well and if not better than fighters. 

It was very interesting situation really. Surely there had to be upgraded communication between rocket guidance and target control on the ground to achieve hit on F-35 and i would not dismiss possibility of Russian S-400 platforms providing such guidance to SAA ( they were sent to Latakia base and one more location which i can't remember right now ). 

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Sir Smoke aLot
19 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Dynamite was invented in the 1800's, but it still goes BANG !

All the more reason to believe that it was a bird strike, and not a missile attack :)

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=13106

Direct link to PDF archive from F35 project. A lot of insurances were made to provide good protection against bird hits ( which is big problem in aviation, especially when great speeds are achieved ).

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and then
On 1/31/2018 at 6:12 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Those F35 are free to Israel as part of aid from America, aid without which Israel can't survive as they are not wealthy but very poor country which can't pay for it.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/israel

Population under 9 million, GDP over 300 Billion.  I'm not sure "poor" describes them accurately but I suspect the "gifts" to Israel are far outweighed by their contributions to U.S. science, tech, and medicine.  On topic, I have trouble believing Damascus over Lockheed but if the F-35 is really that fragile then it will become readily apparent as they take up more of the first-line offensive slots around the world.  OTOH, if they are vulnerable to even S-300 or 400, I'll agree that they've been a waste of resources.  IF they are...  When the IAF begins its next conflict in Lebanon/Syria, probably soon, we'll see for sure how vulnerable they are.  At some point, Israel is going to hammer the Iranian efforts at hegemony on their own borders and Russia would like nothing better than to test their top of the line AA against America's top of the line 5th gen stealth.  When that day comes, we'll have the answer.

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Sir Smoke aLot
17 hours ago, and then said:

Population under 9 million, GDP over 300 Billion.  I'm not sure "poor" describes them accurately but I suspect the "gifts" to Israel are far outweighed by their contributions to U.S. science, tech, and medicine. 

Exactly, Israel doesn't need American 'scrapped' military equipment. Imagine what would that money do to healthcare system in America? Point around which some politicians in USA do agree now.

17 hours ago, and then said:

On topic, I have trouble believing Damascus over Lockheed but if the F-35 is really that fragile then it will become readily apparent as they take up more of the first-line offensive slots around the world.

Do not believe Damascus. I do not either, not 100% that is. Important note is the timeline of events and fact that IDF official twitter account informed public of 'bird strike' within few hours of rocket raid from within Lebanese territory do sound suspicious.

It's just that spending for making this fighter seems over the roof. American equipment is, and here i agree with Trump : '' state of the art '', but there should be line made between unnecessary spending and viability on modern battlefields.

Not that it is important for the subject but you mention Iran... As for Israel damaging Iran in any way... That sounds a bit silly because Israel could not win against Hezbollah than what makes you think that they have chance against the country with over 80 million of humble and self respecting people with large sense of national pride? I hope it wont get to that because it would mean the end of Israel. Take into account that Israel, at it's thinnest part of land is some 15 miles ( in north ) and in the south is empty Negev desert. Iranian rockets would level that ground much worse than Israel did to Lebanon with carpet bombing from 2006. Iran is one of those countries which will never be influenced by the 'currents' which pollute western world.

17 hours ago, and then said:

Russia would like nothing better than to test their top of the line AA against America's top of the line 5th gen stealth

Russia doesn't wan't war with the USA. They haven't even turned on their AA defense in Latakia for this same reason. Imagine if upgraded S-400 ( or even S-500 ) would cover some 400 square km of Syrian sky? That would have some serious implications.

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Sir Smoke aLot

Just from Dead Sea minerals Israel earns around 3 billion $ annually. Palestinians, on the other hand, are forbidden to use those resources even tho most of Dead Sea shore is West Bank land.

Only by reserving 25% of those earnings Israel would manage to pay for military equipment which America gives to them free. I mean, there are people who search 'goods' in garbage in USA too.

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and then
4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That would have some serious implications.

If the systems are as good as advertised, it wouldn't necessarily cause complications.  Problems would only arise if they decided to down U.S. aircraft.  NO AA or stealth system is impervious over the long term.  NONE.  As to Israel "harming Iran", they have no real desire to, IMO.  They just don't plan to allow Iran's thugocracy to destroy THEM.  If the day comes that they feel it's about to happen, it will be a bad day for the world.

ETA:  They only "turn on" these systems when absolutely necessary because the frequencies that are generated can be recorded and from there it's not difficult for tech wizards to come up with spoofing software.  Or so I've read.

Edited by and then

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Sir Smoke aLot
21 hours ago, and then said:

As to Israel "harming Iran", they have no real desire to, IMO.

Let's hope that's the case. The message of Bibi's visit to Moscow from 2017 still resonates... Bibi mentioned Persian king who persecuted Jews and said that Iran still want's that. That surely presents different agenda but i love to believe that Iran has good deterrence so does Israel. But poor those people 'in the middle', so to say, of those affairs.

21 hours ago, and then said:

They only "turn on" these systems when absolutely necessary

Just month ( or so ) ago there was attack ( by drones, improvised ) on Russia base in Syria. Even then, it wasn't turned on. Region is in a mess, especially since Turkey started it's operations. Fun thing to note here, Erdogan as Anti-Christ 'fairy tale' got some grounds hehe

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RoofGardener

There's an interesting Wiki article on the S200 missile. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-200_(missile)

A couple of points: firstly, it is radar-homing, directed initially by a ground radar system, and then (if I read it properly) an onboard radar. Surely the IAF jets would have noticed the radar illumination ? There have been previous S200 attacks against IAF jets, and the IAF responded by bombing the launch site. 

Secondly, it is a fragmentation device. It peppers its target with thousands of teeny tiny pellets. It's difficult to understand how the IDF jet could have just a bit of damage to one engine in that scenario ? Surely the body of the aircraft would have been riddled with holes ? 

Thirdly, the Syrians have a track record of claiming non-existent hits with S200's. In the most recent case, the only thing that the missile actually hit was Jordan ! 

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Captain Risky
4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

There's an interesting Wiki article on the S200 missile. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-200_(missile)

A couple of points: firstly, it is radar-homing, directed initially by a ground radar system, and then (if I read it properly) an onboard radar. Surely the IAF jets would have noticed the radar illumination ? There have been previous S200 attacks against IAF jets, and the IAF responded by bombing the launch site. 

Secondly, it is a fragmentation device. It peppers its target with thousands of teeny tiny pellets. It's difficult to understand how the IDF jet could have just a bit of damage to one engine in that scenario ? Surely the body of the aircraft would have been riddled with holes ? 

Thirdly, the Syrians have a track record of claiming non-existent hits with S200's. In the most recent case, the only thing that the missile actually hit was Jordan ! 

and in the now defunct Yugoslavia in 1999 a stealthy 117 was shot down by an even more ancient SAM the S-125.

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

and in the now defunct Yugoslavia in 1999 a stealthy 117 was shot down by an even more ancient SAM the S-125.

Only because it had its bomb-bay doors open :)

Interesting though, nontheless. Thanks for posting that Cap'n

Edited by RoofGardener
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and then
5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Only because it had its bomb-bay doors open :)

Interesting though, nontheless. Thanks for posting that Cap'n

As I recall, there was a weakness that the stealth system had with flying in heavy rain making it less stealthy, also.  I think that a lot of the rhetoric against the F 35 is overblown.  As I said, if it is that defective, the world will know relatively soon.  Israel is in the process of developing their own particular strategies for employing them and may soon have need of a platform that can take out Russian AA sites in the coming war against the IRGC and Hezbollah.  

The Iranians are actually building a production factory for the Fateh 110 medium-range missile, on Syrian soil.  Bibi has spoken with Putin a couple of times but seems to have gotten no help.  Putin is going to have to decide just how far he's willing to go in helping an ally (Iran) whose interests are not his own in many instances.  Using an S400 to shoot down Israeli jets/pilots will not go unanswered and I think he understands this.  If he does this, the price of poker will definitely go up.

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Captain Risky
14 hours ago, and then said:

As I recall, there was a weakness that the stealth system had with flying in heavy rain making it less stealthy, also.  I think that a lot of the rhetoric against the F 35 is overblown.  As I said, if it is that defective, the world will know relatively soon.  Israel is in the process of developing their own particular strategies for employing them and may soon have need of a platform that can take out Russian AA sites in the coming war against the IRGC and Hezbollah.  

The Iranians are actually building a production factory for the Fateh 110 medium-range missile, on Syrian soil.  Bibi has spoken with Putin a couple of times but seems to have gotten no help.  Putin is going to have to decide just how far he's willing to go in helping an ally (Iran) whose interests are not his own in many instances.  Using an S400 to shoot down Israeli jets/pilots will not go unanswered and I think he understands this.  If he does this, the price of poker will definitely go up.

stealth aircraft like the F-35 and F-22 don't really have weaknesses as much as they have limitations to their designs. while the shape, electronics and materials might have been ahead of their time when being developed and built, stealth aircraft cannot protect against future advancements in anti stealth tech once their design parameters have been set. a new radar or a combination of different radars working together can make the F-22 and the F-35 vulnerable to detection. then its just a case of finding a missile thats fast enough, can't be jammed and with enough range to take down the stealth plane. 

so is it probable that Russia is using the Syrian war to test new radars and stealth detection tech on American and Israeli planes, yes! detection is the first step in any SAM system and the hardest. i also find it possible that Russia found a way to find and tract stealth craft, shooting at them is the easy part.  

concerning the Iranian presence in Syria as long as America is in Syria i don't think that Iran will be threatening anyone. 

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Captain Risky
20 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Only because it had its bomb-bay doors open :)

Interesting though, nontheless. Thanks for posting that Cap'n

my understanding is that the Russians had their own technicians on the ground testing and upgrading Serb air defences. they had spies in Italy that provided F-117 flight plans and multiple spotters on the ground in Bosnia and Serbia and once they had a good idea where the F-117 was they knew where to concentrate and train their radars. 

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Sir Smoke aLot

Older missiles can have 'lucky hit' today, as those missiles were very capable. As the 1960 U-2 incident points out, many factors are important in anti air missile defense and spy plane above Soviet Union was operating at very extreme altitudes. Still, it got hit by a missile with command guidance while S-200 has more advanced systems, which possibly got upgraded by modern parts too, over the decades.

3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

my understanding is that the Russians had their own technicians on the ground testing and upgrading Serb air defences. they had spies in Italy that provided F-117 flight plans and multiple spotters on the ground in Bosnia and Serbia and once they had a good idea where the F-117 was they knew where to concentrate and train their radars. 

That's a possibility. Personally i believe it was a lucky shot. Only in the first 50 NATO missions over 700 anti air missiles were launched against NATO. 

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Sir Smoke aLot
18 hours ago, and then said:

The Iranians are actually building a production factory for the Fateh 110 medium-range missile, on Syrian soil.

Bibi talks too much sometimes. Well, most of the times :) 

Considering how many rockets Iran does have in it's stockpiles in Iran and that those rockets have to be maintained i would most certainly believe that Iran will do it's best to arm Hezbollah and it's other regional allies with it's expensive to maintain rockets from it's bases in Iran - rather than to move production in a very tense region where those installations would be taken down by IDF in very short time. This is especially evident today when Baghdad - Damascus - Beirut highway is under control of so called resistance axis. 

I am not sure is it because of the rocket fuel only or also because of explosive payload but rockets can't be stored forever and have to be used under certain time period. That's why i believe that Iran doesn't desire, not even in it's wildest and most naive dreams, they do not desire to build such a thing.

To be more on topic - Israel does it's operations from within it's own ( mostly occupied Golan Heights ) or Lebanese airspace out of fears from Syrian anti aircraft systems, and for good reason... Especially installations in Bekka valley. Now, if S-400 would be deployed by Syria it would also cover Israeli airspace as, geographically, it's very thin area especially from Tel Aviv to Syrian border. Modern warfare leaves no space for aggression by any state and hopefully, if everyone gets armed enough, it will open the way to diplomacy. I like to believe that.

Just look at Olympics and both Korea's. Israel has a lot to offer for peace, so do it's opponents.

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