Is man just an idea to god?

[+Liquid Gardens]

32 minutes ago, simplybill said:

It seems that when a 'Plan' is discussed here, there's an unspoken assumption that we should be able to understand the 'Plan' in its entirety. Those of you who've read the Bible have  seen the passages that say individuals are parts of a whole, rather than stand-alone completed works. 

Yet it seems like there are plenty of passages that imply the opposite.  It seems that a big part of 'the plan' is our salvation, and salvation seems to only apply to parts of the whole (individuals), not the whole.

35 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Everyone has a 'purpose' that helps to fulfill the 'plan' of the Architect

That may be, but unfortunately the whole idea of a 'plan', or at least our ability to evaluate it or say much about it (including that there even is one), is up-ended by your earlier point, that we're not going to be able to understand the entire plan; that papers over all questions and inconsistencies.  If something good happens in the world, oh yes, that is God's doing and shows his goodness and compassion and he should be praised. If something bad happens (at least those things that can't be traced to one of our free will choices), hey whoa, wait a minute, we shouldn't assume we understand the plan and take this as any reflection on the character of God, we're not in a position to evaluate it as 'bad'.  Of course if we can't evaluate something as 'bad' because of unknown maybe's, then logically that undercuts our ability to evaluate good things as good too, for who can understand his full plan?

[freetoroam]

45 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Another perspective on God's 'plan':

It seems that when a 'Plan' is discussed here, there's an unspoken assumption that we should be able to understand the 'Plan' in its entirety. Those of you who've read the Bible have  seen the passages that say individuals are parts of a whole, rather than stand-alone completed works. It's similar to erecting a 100-story building: the heavy equipment operators who dig a hole for the foundation may be experts at digging holes for foundations, but they don't necessarily have access to the Architect's blueprints. It goes the same with the concrete specialists who lay the foundation, the plumbers who install the plumbing, and the electricians who lay the wires. Everyone has a 'purpose' that helps to fulfill the 'plan' of the Architect.     

If there was a god, then this god would be the architect and he would hold the blue prints....but nothing can be done without the blue prints being seen....so far, the closest we have to anyone claiming to have anything close to these blueprints is Moses.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

9 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hey what happened to sharing is caring?

jmccr8 

Not when it involves.................. pie!!!   

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Something about 'the plan' and the architect's thought that Simply brought up, reminded me of something else. I'm sure a lot of heard of using the example of the spark separated from the fire bit. Where someone asks, why do we have to be with others to worships. And the person asked the question, went over to a fireplace and removed a bit, a spark, and the spark died out by itself. And that is suppose to express the necessity of worship within a lot of people. 

Granted, that might sound understandable, but lately something came into my mind. The spark, to me, can also be maintained in a group full of cultists, or in more fun, not harmful situations like scifi or sport's groups. Sometimes, someone alone in the stands, is hesitant to go 'Woo Hoo' all by themselves, right? 

Anyhow, then I realized in my memories (been camping a lot in my childhood) I have seen removed sparks, (those that fly out of campfires) really stay alive for quite a long time. If using this example, if your belief is that true, you don't need the group all of the time. Your spark will stay strong because the fire was still hot inside you. (I think of my own unique belief within me when seeing this).

I happen to feel as well, that if you need a group to continue that spark, then it's not an honest spark within you. I would think one would be dishonest within themselves. I say this, because I feel this has happened in my observations, and how I noticed some who leave and feel better about it and their honesty of why they don't believe the masses, but are bitter of the years within it and felt they couldn't leave because of the group 'encouragement'. 

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, Essan said:

The more believers a god has, the bigger and more powerful he becomes.

But if a god has no believers, he ceases to exist

Therefore, the natural, instinctive, aim of all gods is to increase their worship base   

If there were multiple gods then it makes the creation of man even more questionable because if there is a group of them that act/live in a social setting it wouldn't be because they needed companionship in man. It would also be likely that there would need to be a consensus and justification within the group to create inferior beings.

jmccr8 

[simplybill]

26 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Yet it seems like there are plenty of passages that imply the opposite.  It seems that a big part of 'the plan' is our salvation, and salvation seems to only apply to parts of the whole (individuals), not the whole.

I sounds as though you're agreeing with me, that we're individual parts of a whole.

 

30 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That may be, but unfortunately the whole idea of a 'plan', or at least our ability to evaluate it or say much about it (including that there even is one), is up-ended by your earlier point, that we're not going to be able to understand the entire plan; that papers over all questions and inconsistencies.  If something good happens in the world, oh yes, that is God's doing and shows his goodness and compassion and he should be praised. If something bad happens (at least those things that can't be traced to one of our free will choices), hey whoa, wait a minute, we shouldn't assume we understand the plan and take this as any reflection on the character of God, we're not in a position to evaluate it as 'bad'.  Of course if we can't evaluate something as 'bad' because of unknown maybe's, then logically that undercuts our ability to evaluate good things as good too, for who can understand his full plan?

I don't understand how you're disagreeing with me? The heavy equipment operator learns to his job well, but he doesn't need a degree in Architecture to do it. Same with the plumbers and electricians: A plumber doesn't need an apprenticeship in electrical work to do his plumbing jobs.

Yes, it does help to have an overall understanding of building construction, thus the Bible: it provides guidance in how to do our part, without revealing the entire plan.

[Essan]

31 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Yet it seems like there are plenty of passages that imply the opposite.  It seems that a big part of 'the plan' is our salvation, and salvation seems to only apply to parts of the whole (individuals), not the whole.

 

So god created the universe; billions of galaxies, trillions of planets teeming with life, just so that he could bring salvation to "some" of just one species, on one insignificant planet, orbiting an unregarded, rather ordinary little yellow star, in the backwaters of a frankly plain, nondescript and rather dull galaxy?

No wonder they say his ways are mysterious!

[simplybill]

37 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

If there was a god, then this god would be the architect and he would hold the blue prints....but nothing can be done without the blue prints being seen....so far, the closest we have to anyone claiming to have anything close to these blueprints is Moses.

And yet we choose to ignore those 10 basic rules. Lying, theft, adultery, and murder are everyday occurences. Should we blame God? Or should we blame ourselves for not following the rules?

[Essan]

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

If there were multiple gods then it makes the creation of man even more questionable because if there is a group of them that act/live in a social setting it wouldn't be because they needed companionship in man. It would also be likely that there would need to be a consensus and justification within the group to create inferior beings.

jmccr8 

Rumour has it the biggest god of all created not humans, but beetles.

The locust god and even the rat god are pretty high up in the pantheon too  

The god who created humans to worship him is occasionally allowed into Valhalla to clean the ashtrays .....

Edited February 2, 2018 by Essan

[simplybill]

6 minutes ago, Essan said:

So god created the universe; billions of galaxies, trillions of planets teeming with life, just so that he could bring salvation to "some" of just one species, on one insignificant planet, orbiting an unregarded, rather ordinary little yellow star, in the backwaters of a frankly plain, nondescript and rather dull galaxy?

No wonder they say his ways are mysterious!

Why wouldn't he? It seems to me that an eternal God who promises eternal life would want to make it obvious that there's more to life than, say, a desert island.

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Another perspective on God's 'plan':

It seems that when a 'Plan' is discussed here, there's an unspoken assumption that we should be able to understand the 'Plan' in its entirety. Those of you who've read the Bible have  seen the passages that say individuals are parts of a whole, rather than stand-alone completed works. It's similar to erecting a 100-story building: the heavy equipment operators who dig a hole for the foundation may be experts at digging holes for foundations, but they don't necessarily have access to the Architect's blueprints. It goes the same with the concrete specialists who lay the foundation, the plumbers who install the plumbing, and the electricians who lay the wires. Everyone has a 'purpose' that helps to fulfill the 'plan' of the Architect.     

Yes I can see what you are saying, in a sense It's a need to know and you don't need to know position. I work in the construction industry and I do need to know what all trades are doing as on occasion the plans do not reflect the reality of the structure and I build to accommodate the other trades which is cost effective and creates better working relationships. If there is a plan that is hidden it has no value if all parties are kept in the dark about what other conditions exist.

jmccr8 

[simplybill]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Yes I can see what you are saying, in a sense It's a need to know and you don't need to know position. I work in the construction industry and I do need to know what all trades are doing as on occasion the plans do not reflect the reality of the structure and I build to accommodate the other trades which is cost effective and creates better working relationships. If there is a plan that is hidden it has no value if all parties are kept in the dark about what other conditions exist.

jmccr8 

That's why I added this when replying to Liquid Gardens:

15 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Yes, it does help to have an overall understanding of building construction, thus the Bible: it provides guidance in how to do our part, without revealing the entire plan.

 

[jmccr8]

17 minutes ago, simplybill said:

I sounds as though you're agreeing with me, that we're individual parts of a whole.

 

I don't understand how you're disagreeing with me? The heavy equipment operator learns to his job well, but he doesn't need a degree in Architecture to do it. Same with the plumbers and electricians: A plumber doesn't need an apprenticeship in electrical work to do his plumbing jobs.

Yes, it does help to have an overall understanding of building construction, thus the Bible: it provides guidance in how to do our part, without revealing the entire plan.

I wish it was that simple but it isn't your body has independent parts the perform certain functions but must work as a unity and dependent on that unity to perform properly. If there was a group of 20 people that were assigned a job to do and only some of them knew what was to be done many of the ones that did not know or understand the means and end would stand around and socialize because they are idle social creatures with no direction.

jmccr8 

[jmccr8]

21 minutes ago, simplybill said:

And yet we choose to ignore those 10 basic rules. Lying, theft, adultery, and murder are everyday occurences. Should we blame God? Or should we blame ourselves for not following the rules?

As of yet there is no proof that god gave any rules as we can see that they are natural elements of dependent social groups.

jmccr8 

[jmccr8]

18 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Why wouldn't he? It seems to me that an eternal God who promises eternal life would want to make it obvious that there's more to life than, say, a desert island.

That is only one position that represents one god concept other concepts have multiple gods and there is no reason to have a bias in understanding or debating what reason a god/gods would have in creating man, what personal need would a god have that could be satisfied by our existence?

jmccr8 

[+Liquid Gardens]

14 minutes ago, simplybill said:

I sounds as though you're agreeing with me, that we're individual parts of a whole.

To an extent I agree with you, although I don't understand or am not as knowledgeable as you are about the Bible's statements that imply that we are part of a whole.  To put it simply, what is God's plan?  Is there anything about this reality that, at least on the surface, appears to not be congruous with that plan? 

I had always thought that the parts of a whole had more to do with there is part of God within us but we are separated from him right now and thus are not 'whole' here on earth.  But you are discussing more of a cooperative effort by people using their individual skills without understanding the details of other peoples' expertise or the full plan.  What are Christians at least all using their individual skills to build or create, to borrow your building analogy?

The only point I disagreed on is that it seems in a very fundamental way, and what seems to be an important part of our plan, we are not part of a whole.  You and I could use our different expertise to work towards God's plan but you're saved and I'm not; in that way I am just an individual and not part of a whole, nothing I do will necessarily have an effect on your salvation/sinfulness status, in that way we are not part of a whole at all but, I thought, individual souls.

24 minutes ago, simplybill said:

I don't understand how you're disagreeing with me?

I don't think I am actually, that's why I said, 'that may be'.  I'm more making a comment on the tension between 'God has a plan' and ' but don't assume you know details or even the overall plan'.  To me it just logically undercuts our ability to really say much at all about the plan.  "I do my best to praise god and to take care of the poor and the sick, but I don't really know why outside of the bible tells me to, I can't assume I know god's plan".

[jmccr8]

13 minutes ago, simplybill said:

That's why I added this when replying to Liquid Gardens:

 

Knowing the entire plan is key to success when working with groups of people unless it is military/govt/criminal based.

jmccr8 

[simplybill]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

I wish it was that simple but it isn't your body has independent parts the perform certain functions but must work as a unity and dependent on that unity to perform properly. If there was a group of 20 people that were assigned a job to do and only some of them knew what was to be done many of the ones that did not know or understand the means and end would stand around and socialize because they are idle social creatures with no direction.

jmccr8 

Except that the Bible is more informative than you give it credit for. Part of the problem is that we're tasked with repairing the brokenness brought about by those who choose to oppose God:  God didn't create the conditions of the Holodomor in Ukraine that led to hundreds of thousands of orphans;  it was result of Joe Stalin's twisted ideology:

"During the Holodomor millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine. Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

We believers don't have a problem recognizing a 'plan' of God. We attempt through evangelization to bring more people on board to help repair the damage, while training people to become less damage-causing themselves. It's a major component of the plan of Salvation. 

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

32 minutes ago, simplybill said:

 Or should we blame ourselves for not following the rules?

Depends on the rule.  Prohibitions against theft and murder are pretty much necessary, we don't need God to inform us of those, if you don't have those you don't have civilization.  No graven images?  Pretty silly.  "Have no other gods before me" has led to all kinds of horrors caused by those, from many religions admittedly, who believe God wants us to enforce that rule on earth; yea I'm putting some of the responsibility for that on God.

[jmccr8]

5 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Except that the Bible is more informative than you give it credit for. Part of the problem is that we're tasked with repairing the brokenness brought about by those who choose to oppose God:  God didn't create the conditions of the Holodomor in Ukraine that led to hundreds of thousands of orphans;  it was result of Joe Stalin's twisted ideology:

"During the Holodomor millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine. Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

We believers don't have a problem recognizing a 'plan' of God. We attempt through evangelization to bring more people on board to help repair the damage, while training people to become less damage-causing themselves. It's a major component of the plan of Salvation. 

 

But that doesn't address the question why do you think god had reason to create man. This is an open question that has no religious preference so it doesn't matter because if there is a god/gods they do not have a religion, man confines and defines god by doctrine and yet the experience of knowing god is personal and not the property of doctrine.

jmccr8 

[simplybill]

7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

That is only one position that represents one god concept other concepts have multiple gods and there is no reason to have a bias in understanding or debating what reason a god/gods would have in creating man, what personal need would a god have that could be satisfied by our existence?

jmccr8 

That's why I continue to assert the importance of Ideologies. Why do we humans have children? In another thread I posted an article about the importance of being active and interested in our children's lives. Compare that to the primitive tribes encountered by Jesuit missionaries (in the their pre-Marxist days) who took multiple wives in order to increase the number of children available to sacrifice to their pagan gods. The bible teaches us that children are a blessing, whereas pagan ideologies often have a history of child sacrifice. Just to clarify, I'm not comparing extremes to extremes, I'm comparing results to results.

 

[simplybill]

10 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Depends on the rule.  Prohibitions against theft and murder are pretty much necessary, we don't need God to inform us of those, if you don't have those you don't have civilization.  No graven images?  Pretty silly.  "Have no other gods before me" has led to all kinds of horrors caused by those, from many religions admittedly, who believe God wants us to enforce that rule on earth; yea I'm putting some of the responsibility for that on God.

What you consider 'weaselly', I consider to be very important: 'when held accountable to its own principles'. For example, the egregious errors of the Catholic clergy in the Middle Ages were confronted by Martin Luther, and the errors were corrected. To my knowledge, no one since has been burned at the stake for speaking up about errors in doctrine.

[freetoroam]

50 minutes ago, simplybill said:

And yet we choose to ignore those 10 basic rules. Lying, theft, adultery, and murder are everyday occurences. Should we blame God? Or should we blame ourselves for not following the rules?

They are mans rules to being a good person from a time of ignorance ( i do not mean that in a nasty way) But would you say someone who was homeless and starving stealing some bread was a bad person? Are all adulterers bad people? If someone kills in self defence...does it make that person a bad person? 

Thankfully we have courts with men to decide on these 'rules' , if they were an alleged gods rules, we would not need courts and juries.

We do not alway get it right, but if everyone today were punished for not adhering to these 'god'  rules, then we would be living in a world with no compassion or justice. 

Today we have to look at why these man made laws have been broken....if they have been and who is the real victim.  That is why we need a man made justice system.....and no ideas of any gods must come into it.

Man is quite capable or recognising what is right and wrong,  and it is man alone who decides which route he takes, sad thing is, some people blame a 'god' for their decisions. Not sure how that logic pans out!

[simplybill]

34 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

As of yet there is no proof that god gave any rules as we can see that they are natural elements of dependent social groups.

jmccr8 

 

2 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

They are mans rules to being a good person from a time of ignorance ( i do not mean that in a nasty way) But would you say someone who was homeless and starving stealing some bread was a bad person? Are all adulterers bad people? If someone kills in self defence...does it make that person a bad person? 

Thankfully we have courts with men to decide on these 'rules' , if they were an alleged gods rules, we would not need courts and juries.

We do not alway get it right, but if everyone today were punished for not adhering to these 'god'  rules, then we would be living in a world with no compassion or justice. 

Today we have to look at why these man made laws have been broken....if they have been and who is the real victim.  That is why we need a man made justice system.....and no ideas of any gods must come into it.

Man is quite capable or recognizing what is right and wrong,  and it is man alone who decides which route he takes, sad thing is, some people blame a 'god' for their decisions. Not sure how that logic pans out!

And there again is the importance of ideology: who decides the rules we recognize? The people who are in power, of course. If the people in power find it acceptable to force religion or athiesm on the population, then the appointed courts and juries will agree, and we find ourselves living in a totalitarian state. We end up with Hitlers and Kim Jong Uns who are worshipped instead of God. 

 

[GoldenWolf]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

And yet we choose to ignore those 10 basic rules. Lying, theft, adultery, and murder are everyday occurences. Should we blame God? Or should we blame ourselves for not following the rules?

The Golden Rule is stronger than the ten commandments.