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Did the Ancient Greeks Visit Canada?


Essan

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20 hours ago, Piney said:

We didn't have the Black Plague until you b******* brought it.

The Black Plague didn't reach Europe until the 14th century. There were plenty of other diseases that would've done the job though.

 

10 hours ago, Piney said:

There was not enough of them and they were generally healthy. Vikings threw the sick overboard because they were all about strength. Greek traders on the other hand carried rats and diseases wherever they went. Greek sailors also liked keeping the coast in sight for navigation. Viking sailors used a form of a sextant called a "sunstone" so they could navigate across large bodies of water.

That does however call into question the amount of contact the vikings had. A case of the sniffles your average viking would shrug off would be enough to kill. Possibly worth noting that the occupation by the Norse roughly coincides with the decline of the Dorset culture and replacement by the Thule culture.

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Hmm... I have lots of problems with this, but lets start with two. 

"....This is according to a controversial study that claims Hellenistic Greeks had such detailed knowledge of astronomy that they were able to pinpoint Atlantic currents that would propel them west. ..."

Sorry, but a knowledge of Astronomy doesn't give you ANY capabilities to "pinpoint Atlantic currents".  That is a complete non-sequitur. A knowledge of astronomy might help you to navigate, under limited circumstances, but tells you NOTHING about ocean currents, prevailing winds, or anything else of maritime utility. 

... A character in the texts recounts meeting a Greek stranger who had recently returned from a 'great continent' - and scientists say this may have been Canada. ..

Do they ? Do they REALLY ? Somehow I doubt that any reputable 'scientists' says anything of the sort. A 'great continent' ? Well, from a Greek perspective, that could be anything from Africa to Arabia to Russia... or even India ? 

Hmm.. wait... where have we heard this before ? A story of travels to/from a great continent, related to the storyteller by somebody who had spoken with somebody who had spoken with the Traveler ? 

Oh yes.. Plato's parable of Atlantis. 

Which was obviously in Ottowa ! :P

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37 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

The Black Plague didn't reach Europe until the 14th century. There were plenty of other diseases that would've done the job though.

 

That does however call into question the amount of contact the vikings had. A case of the sniffles your average viking would shrug off would be enough to kill. Possibly worth noting that the occupation by the Norse roughly coincides with the decline of the Dorset culture and replacement by the Thule culture.

Doing some research on this (aka Google) I saw it proposed that the population of American natives the Vikings interacted with (apparently mostly the population of Newfoundland) was very small, spread out and fairly isolated from the rest of the Americas. So whatever they spread to the few natives they had contact with might not have reached the rest as it happened with the Columbine Exchange (where the Spanish interacted with a large population that regularly had contact with and traided with surrounding large populations)

And well, it is kind of true that the Viking were big, strong and healthy because small, slight and sickly people tended to perish in the harsh climates they lived in, while in Ancient Greece frail people had a higher chance of surviving (if they weren't Spartan) so that IS a factor.   

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1 hour ago, Oniomancer said:

The Black Plague didn't reach Europe until the 14th century. There were plenty of other diseases that would've done the job though.

My mistake. I thought the Plague of Athens was Yersinia Pestis. It was something else. But the Plague of Justinian, which was in the 500s was it, so it actually reached  Eastern Europe earlier.

B

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19 hours ago, Piney said:

There was not enough of them and they were generally healthy. Vikings threw the sick overboard because they were all about strength. Greek traders on the other hand carried rats and diseases wherever they went. Greek sailors also liked keeping the coast in sight for navigation. Viking sailors used a form of a sextant called a "sunstone" so they could navigate across large bodies of water.

are there any native stories or legends that would support viking or other europeans coming to North America that you know of.

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3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

are there any native stories or legends that would support viking or other europeans coming to North America that you know of.

There is Inuit tales about Viking contact. Some native drawings too. I think they are housed at Smithsonian's NMAI or Heye's collection in New York, but I don't remember which book they were in. 

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14 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

The Black Plague didn't reach Europe until the 14th century. There were plenty of other diseases that would've done the job though.

 

That does however call into question the amount of contact the vikings had. A case of the sniffles your average viking would shrug off would be enough to kill. Possibly worth noting that the occupation by the Norse roughly coincides with the decline of the Dorset culture and replacement by the Thule culture.

 

Weren't the Thule renown for their cargo/storage rack constructions? I have a modern version w/kayak bracing on top my 2000 XJ.

:D

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8 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

 

Weren't the Thule renown for their cargo/storage rack constructions? I have a modern version w/kayak bracing on top my 2000 XJ.

:D

My kayak almost killed my boss. It's hard to get upright when your 6'6" and 265 lbs. Those suckers were built for us little brown people.

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14 minutes ago, Piney said:

My kayak almost killed my boss. It's hard to get upright when your 6'6" and 265 lbs. Those suckers were built for us little brown people.

Depends on the type. A little playboat, my Piranha ammo or Everest in the river will roll like a wheel. In a 12' Easky out on the bay it is easier for me to bail and remount. The old Riot/Azul Atlantis series are a very stable design for beginners to get comfortable pr to fish from but I can barely upright one of them even in flat water. I probably should sell a couple of the boats to make room for other toys.

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On 3/15/2018 at 5:17 PM, Piney said:

We didn't have the Black Plague until you b******* brought it.

Not to mention Smallpox and Syphilis. :blink:

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Yes, yes they did.

It all started with Spartacus.  Once defeated questions were asked about how exactly he had enslaved the dragons and brought them to bear on Athens. The high council decided they needed a counter to future dragon attacks and so the 'Greek Fire' project was spawned.  Years previously a man had arrived from the west on a boat made of pig testicles, telling of a huge continent that lay undiscovered across the great ocean.  He told stories of monsters and fire throwing demons, which obviously excited the Greeks, and so they set off in search of this promised land.

Unfortunately the first boat made of pig testicles sank.  The second caught fire, keeled over and sank.  The third one stayed afloat however and it is this vessel that they used to cross the seas.

When they eventually arrived on the shores of the new world they were greeted with an uncomfortable truth, someone had got there first! It was the templars burying treasure on Oak Island.  Not to be deterred they pressed on to the interior of the continent where they discovered the ancient secrets of plasma creation and so the legend of 'Greek Fire' can actually be traced right back to the indigenous population of the americas.

True story.

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the pier reis map which is sourced from older Greek maps from the 4th BC. probably the best evidence for Phoenician, Greek and Roman travel outside of the Mediterranean basin and into the Atlantic. the map also shows Antarctica. 

http://www.reelart.net/piri-reis-map-1st-map-to-show-americas-antarctica-24-x-36-high-gloss-poster/

another interesting fact is that only 1/3 of the map has been found. 

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6 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

the pier reis map which is sourced from older Greek maps from the 4th BC. probably the best evidence for Phoenician, Greek and Roman travel outside of the Mediterranean basin and into the Atlantic. the map also shows Antarctica. 

http://www.reelart.net/piri-reis-map-1st-map-to-show-americas-antarctica-24-x-36-high-gloss-poster/

another interesting fact is that only 1/3 of the map has been found. 

No it's not. It was probably based on the maps of Columbus and it's portrayal of the North American Coast is completely inaccurate.

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31 minutes ago, Piney said:

No it's not. It was probably based on the maps of Columbus and it's portrayal of the North American Coast is completely inaccurate.

well you might be right and you might be wrong. wrong in the sense that the Ottoman admiral clearly admits that he used 20 ancient Greek maps, some from the time of Alexander the great to reproduce the map in question. so i guess it all rests on whether admiral Piri Reis was a liar. another important fact is that the content of Antartica is shown (some say ice free). I'm sure that Columbus never knew of Antarctica and he certainly never sailed there. so how do you explain that? 

Edited by Captain Risky
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32 minutes ago, Piney said:

No it's not. It was probably based on the maps of Columbus and it's portrayal of the North American Coast is completely inaccurate.

actually thats a big statement that would require a great deal of cartographic evidence to prove. from what i have read, the Piri Reis map, though not entirely actuate is accurate enough to chart a course by. map making was not a precise science at the time and scholars have stated that Admiral Piri Reis makes the same fundamental map making mistakes as those that copy from older sources. (see the link i have provided).  

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11 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

well you might be right and you might be wrong. wrong in the sense that the Ottoman admiral clearly admits that he used 20 ancient Greek maps, some from the time of Alexander the great. so i guess it all rests on whether admiral Piri Reis was a liar. another important fact is that the content of Antartica is shown (some say ice free). I'm sure that Columbus never new of Antarctica and he certainly never sailed there.  

Piri Reis wrote the source of the map was Columbus.  Where did this info come from?

Quote

From eight Jaferyas of that kind and one Arabic map of Hind [India], and from four newly drawn Portuguese maps which show the countries of Sind [now in modern day Pakistan], Hind and Çin [China] geometrically drawn, and also from a map drawn by Qulūnbū [Columbus] in the western region, I have extracted it. By reducing all these maps to one scale this final form was arrived at, so that this map of these lands is regarded by seamen as accurate and as reliable as the accuracy and reliability of the Seven Seas[18] on the aforesaid maps."[19]

There were more accurate maps from the time of this map actually.

source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

Edited by Piney
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2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

actually thats a big statement that would require a great deal of cartographic evidence to prove. from what i have read, the Piri Reis map, though not entirely actuate is accurate enough to chart a course by. map making was not a precise science at the time and scholars have stated that Admiral Piri Reis makes the same fundamental map making mistakes as those that copy from older sources. (see the link i have provided).  

Quote

The Iberian peninsula and the coast of Africa are rendered accurately; as for the Americas, the northern portion of the South American coast is also fairly accurate and positioned correctly with respect to Africa.[36] Much of the Caribbean is also mapped fairly accurately and appears to reflect Columbus's maps of the area. The area representing North America bears almost no resemblance to its real coastline except for one projection which might be Newfoundland; an island labelled "Antilia" may actually be Nova Scotia, since it has a note attached which refers to the legendary voyages of Saint Brendan.[36] There is some suggestion that this area may represent the Asian coast. Island groups in the east Atlantic are accurately placed, but are depicted out of scale.[36]

source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

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12 minutes ago, Piney said:

i understand that there is little independently reviewed sources but wiki? like i said you are comparing cartography from 2500 years ago to now. even though the map might not be a perfect fit the important fact is that a several continents are shown that are not supposed to be there.  

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Just now, Captain Risky said:

i understand that there is little independently reviewed sources but wiki? like i said you are comparing cartography from 2500 years ago to now. even though the map might not be a perfect fit the important fact is that a several continents are shown that are not supposed to be there.  

C'mon Risky, show your source that it was influenced by a map from the time of Alexander the Great.  I'm having a hard time with that. 

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2 minutes ago, Piney said:

C'mon Risky, show your source that it was influenced by a map from the time of Alexander the Great.  I'm having a hard time with that. 

sorry mate i thought i already posted it. 

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/piri-reis-map-at-topkapi-palace

Drawn on gazelle skin, the map was the work of the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Piri Reis in 1513 (the map is actually dated to 919 according to the Muslim calendar). He claimed in the extensive notes he left on the map to have drawn his inspiration from more than 20 source maps, some dating back to the time of Alexander the Great. The map is highly accurate in most ways for its time, although it does have many flaws typical of maps drawn from second-hand information.

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1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

sorry mate i thought i already posted it. 

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/piri-reis-map-at-topkapi-palace

Drawn on gazelle skin, the map was the work of the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Piri Reis in 1513 (the map is actually dated to 919 according to the Muslim calendar). He claimed in the extensive notes he left on the map to have drawn his inspiration from more than 20 source maps, some dating back to the time of Alexander the Great. The map is highly accurate in most ways for its time, although it does have many flaws typical of maps drawn from second-hand information.

It says "he claimed" which cannot be proven one way or another.

Quote

Drawn on gazelle skin, the map was the work of the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Piri Reis in 1513 (the map is actually dated to 919 according to the Muslim calendar). He claimed in the extensive notes he left on the map to have drawn his inspiration from more than 20 source maps, some dating back to the time of Alexander the Great. The map is highly accurate in most ways for its time, although it does have many flaws typical of maps drawn from second-hand information.

Alexander the Great tales and claims in Ottoman culture were extensive and most of them fictional.  Like the King Arthur myths in the UK.

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Here's something else that's interesting from the article you posted @Captain Risky

Quote

Although the Piri Reis Map is often referred to as the oldest extant map showing the American continent, at least four older maps show America: the 1500 Spanish Juan de la Cosa Map, the 1502 Portuguese Cantino Planisphere, the 1505 Italian Caverio Map, and the Waldesmuller Map of 1507, a copy of which is at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C.

 

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1 minute ago, Piney said:

It says "he claimed" which cannot be proven one way or another.

well without a lie detector test and only a map of the America's and Antartica thats all we have to go on. 

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Alexander the Great tales and claims in Ottoman culture were extensive and most of them fictional.  Like the King Arthur myths in the UK.

Alex the great claims were extensive everywhere. but to a people and a time that didn't know what we know about history, today, it would have been more of a reference point in time than a date. 

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Just now, Captain Risky said:

well without a lie detector test and only a map of the America's and Antartica thats all we have to go on.

You missed my next post from the article you linked

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3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Here's something else that's interesting from the article you posted @Captain Risky

 

no doubt. so if what you suggest is right then all the maps should be pretty much the same. i think i read that only a 1/3rd of the actual Piri Reis map has been found. imagine what could possibly be on the rest. 

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