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Illyrius

Quantum Mysticism - dawning of the New Age

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Illyrius
18 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

This sums it up quite well IMO. 

cormac

When you find it like a good point my moon is lit from within :)

Edited by Illyrius
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Sherapy
21 minutes ago, Hre2breal said:

No disrespect MW but how can prove that these babies caught whooping cough from an unvaccinated child..After doing some research Ive seen that whooping cough can be contracted from anyone at all different ages...My son had whooping cough an his brothers were vaccinated an all kids in my extended family also...honestly you cannot prove this was the result of an unvaccinated child

My sentiment exactly, we are now in the land of making things up and fear mongering. 

I know of kids that were vaccinated and got whooping cough too.

Where I am in the big city it is not unheard of. 

It can happen. Thank goodness for immune systems.

 

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psyche101
20 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's not a question of a comparison with religion, but of methodology and I'm not speaking of Krauss but of you.

Well thing is, that's where I get most of my information from, Krauss, Carroll Greene and Dawkins. I don't see their methodology as much different, being a big influence on me and when I see them debate theists I see marked differences in approach. 

20 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I've given you an honest--and to my mind--an accurate assessment of your own approach to the subject. Appreciate honesty from your friends, Psyche, even those with whom you honestly disagree. It wasn't so long ago, on a night of a thousand sorrows, that such honesty and compassion saved my life.

I do appreciate your view, believe me, and you know when I'm irked, I'm not. A little concerned more than anything and I'll reflect on your comments for sure. I'll work on improving delivery bit bit sue where to start, like I say, I'm a product of influences and if you see anything akin to religion in my personal approach I'm going to have to blame my upbringing. 

20 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Quantum Mysticism is nothing more than the same old mysticism, fretted and clothed in new raiment of pseudo-scientific terminology and  doggerel.

Well to a point yes. Much is theory and theory is a long way from fact. The Higgs is now fact, so that indicates to me we will get more as we go along, and I'm kind of expecting a tipping point  like with element discovery, it started of well then went great. It's more than ancient mysticism in my view mainly because of the Higgs. That too was theory until conformed. It shows there is somthing to all the quantum theory. 

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Illyrius

I guess it is always catchy to ear to call something "doggerel" and then say to psyche for example that he is dogmatic. Psyche is compared to that a paragon of open-mindedness. At least he is seriously discussing the whole matter.

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MauriOra
12 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 its a necessary evil. 

No it is Not ..

People are the Ones, who make the things we use, grow the food we eat etc etc .. Not Money ..

Its Not Necessary, its Not Real, It has No Real Life Value ..We Are So Dependent On It Like A Drug.. We Know No Other Way ..

Its A Farce .. And were all in on it..

Humanity, Just need to do their Bit, to help Each Other, and Put money in its Proper Place .. 2nd To Humanity, Earth and All Life That Dwells Upon Her..

Mo..xx

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Sherapy
22 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Well thing is, that's where I get most of my information from, Krauss, Carroll Greene and Dawkins. I don't see their methodology as much different, being a big influence on me and when I see them debate theists I see marked differences in approach. 

I do appreciate your view, believe me, and you know when I'm irked, I'm not. A little concerned more than anything and I'll reflect on your comments for sure. I'll work on improving delivery bit bit sue where to start, like I say, I'm a product of influences and if you see anything akin to religion in my personal approach I'm going to have to blame my upbringing. 

Well to a point yes. Much is theory and theory is a long way from fact. The Higgs is now fact, so that indicates to me we will get more as we go along, and I'm kind of expecting a tipping point  like with element discovery, it started of well then went great. It's more than ancient mysticism in my view mainly because of the Higgs. That too was theory until conformed. It shows there is somthing to all the quantum theory. 

I knew you would hear Hammie with grace and kindness. Bravo, Psyche you are a class act! Major respect to you. 

Where hammies gets a preacher vibe; I see a guy who fought his way out of craziness ( your childhood) and thinks for himself and passionately encourages that for others, for some of us religion leaves a bad taste. I truly truly truly get it. 

Some of us did not get the rainbows and butterflies version of religion. Sad to say we got the ugly side, and it can truly be awful. We just don’t want to see other kiddlies ever have to experience what we did, so we raise awareness. 

I wish more men of faith were as tolerant as Hammer.

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
7 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

I guess it is always catchy to ear to call something "doggerel" and then say to psyche for example that he is dogmatic. Psyche is compared to that a paragon of open-mindedness. At least he is seriously discussing the whole matter.

Argon, Psyche and Hammer are friends, they keep it real with each other. Don't make the mistake that there is malice. There is not. 

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psyche101
20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

My oldest son had a bad reaction to DPT, he was about 4 months old and started having seizures, scared the hell out of me.

I know you can imagine what that would be like being a father. I choose to vaccinate my sons in spite of that but I didn’t consent to the pertussis aspect of DPT. 

My kids doctors recommended this too.

Must have been horrifying. My kids were both born with hernias and that was ban enough having to watch babies being cut open. For the best but all the smell hard to watch, I can't imagine what it must have been like. 

20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I do ask why, often not always parents have solid reasons to be leery, so I ask first.

Just so many cite that old disproven study it gets passe but I knew there would be more behind your questions, I figured when you would want to share more when you were ready and you did. If the majority of anti vaxxers took careful consideration and medical advice like you, it wouldn't be an issue at, all. 

20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Did you read what happened to Heretobereals post about her little son after the MMR shot? Poor little guy quit breathing. Terrifying, just reading her story scared me. 

He pulled through, thank goodness.

No, I've been ignoring that poster, who I thought was a he actually, since the last heated exchange I figured it's best for the thread and posters in it and someone had to make the first move before the thread got shut down. Might as well be me. 

20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I am for vaccinations, but I do think one should know the side effects, consider family history and talk to the doctor about options If need be. 

I completely agree, very sound advice. Medical advice is the best way to confirm any fears. 

20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you for your kind words A.

 

Thank you Sheri, I appreciate you sharing and showing me the first time I have ever seen an informed and intelligent approach to the subject. Your good, at that, giving hope and opening doors. 

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Illyrius
Just now, Sherapy said:

Argon, Psyche and Hammer are friends, they keep it real with each other. Don't make the mistake that there is malice. There is not. 

Frankly I dont care if there is malice or not. He calls what i have to say "doggerel" why wouldn't i have the same right? I haven't used anything like that first. He used it - he got it back.

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psyche101
9 minutes ago, MauriOra said:

No it is Not ..

People are the Ones, who make the things we use, grow the food we eat etc etc .. Not Money ..

Its Not Necessary, its Not Real, It has No Real Life Value ..We Are So Dependent On It Like A Drug.. We Know No Other Way ..

Its A Farce .. And were all in on it..

Humanity, Just need to do their Bit, to help Each Other, and Put money in its Proper Place .. 2nd To Humanity, Earth and All Life That Dwells Upon Her..

Mo..xx

Its just trade Mo. 

Did you see all the food stolen by police and authorities when aid was sent to Banda Ache after the tidal wave? 

It doesnt matter, money or clothing or food, its greed as to where the problem lies. 

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Sherapy
9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Must have been horrifying. My kids were both born with hernias and that was ban enough having to watch babies being cut open. For the best but all the smell hard to watch, I can't imagine what it must have been like. 

Just so many cite that old disproven study it gets passe but I knew there would be more behind your questions, I figured when you would want to share more when you were ready and you did. If the majority of anti vaxxers took careful consideration and medical advice like you, it wouldn't be an issue at, all. 

No, I've been ignoring that poster, who I thought was a he actually, since the last heated exchange I figured it's best for the thread and posters in it and someone had to make the first move before the thread got shut down. Might as well be me. 

I completely agree, very sound advice. Medical advice is the best way to confirm any fears. 

Thank you Sheri, I appreciate you sharing and showing me the first time I have ever seen an informed and intelligent approach to the subject. Your good, at that, giving hope and opening doors. 

Thank you my dear friend, for your kind words. I appreciate the feedback.

Ha ha ha ha ha I got my own poster to ignore for the same reason; I gotta turn the other cheek to  keep the thread open.

I am a work in progress...

Edited by Sherapy
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psyche101
10 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I knew you would hear Hammie with grace and kindness. Bravo, Psyche you are a class act! Major respect to you. 

Cheers Sheri he is a smart intelligent fellow, even when debating heatedly at the beginning when I first crossed paths, I recognised his strengths and he sure has them. 

10 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Where hammies gets a preacher vibe; I see a guy who fought his way out of craziness ( your childhood) and thinks for himself and passionately encourages that for others, for some of us religion leaves a bad taste. I truly truly truly get it. 

Thank you! 

You made my day :)

10 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Some of us did not get the rainbows and butterflies version of religion. Sad to say we got the ugly side, and it can truly be awful. We just don’t want to see other kiddlies ever have to experience what we did, so we raise awareness. 

Works for me.

 

Exactly, it has been a big curve for me and seems to still dog my life from time to time and not pleasently. 

Your a real gem lovely lady. People like you are why it's worth getting up in the morning. 

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Kismit

Mod Note: The topic is Quantum Mysticism not wether or not to Vaccinate your chuld.

Please feel free to start a seperate thread for that discussion if that's what your into.

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Kismit
34 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I knew you would hear Hammie with grace and kindness. Bravo, Psyche you are a class act! Major respect to you. 

Where hammies gets a preacher vibe; I see a guy who fought his way out of craziness ( your childhood) and thinks for himself and passionately encourages that for others, for some of us religion leaves a bad taste. I truly truly truly get it. 

Some of us did not get the rainbows and butterflies version of religion. Sad to say we got the ugly side, and it can truly be awful. We just don’t want to see other kiddlies ever have to experience what we did, so we raise awareness. 

I wish more men of faith were as tolerant as Hammer.

 

 

I publicly announce I truly like your style Sherapy :wub:

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psyche101
3 hours ago, MauriOra said:

This goes both ways Sir ..

I honestly don't think so Mo. 

3 hours ago, MauriOra said:

One could also, learn the Cutting Edge on the Other Realm..

I am sure I could discuss any aspect of that nature fluently, I did have such for a large part of my life. 

Problem being anyone can come up with any given scenario, apply a story that seems to correlate to the teller and call it experience. It's not hard to make something up to correlate with expectations ingrained from centuries of superstition. 

That's easy. So is finding allegories to fit. 

Getting out there and finding knowledge, understanding the math and theory behind it, that can be really hard, and it's not stuff you can just make up a narrative for and call it experience. It will be triple  heckled  and triple checked again, and performance is required upon demand. 

That is convincing.

Stories by the Thousand are not. 

3 hours ago, MauriOra said:

You Clearly know about the Physical, Dense, Material...

Thanks I do my level best. 

3 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Just not too Sure, On the Other Side of the Duality .. The Spiritual, Energetic Side ..

As I said though, I has over 40 years of immersion in it. I rejected it. I found more, and I found better. 

3 hours ago, MauriOra said:

That is Also A Fascinating, Fantastical, Out of this World, Experience ..

Mo..xx

It was mot for me I assure you. Anything in my life associated with spirituality or religion has left me scarred. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Well thing is, that's where I get most of my information from, Krauss, Carroll Greene and Dawkins. I don't see their methodology as much different, being a big influence on me and when I see them debate theists I see marked differences in approach. 

I do appreciate your view, believe me, and you know when I'm irked, I'm not. A little concerned more than anything and I'll reflect on your comments for sure. I'll work on improving delivery bit bit sue where to start, like I say, I'm a product of influences and if you see anything akin to religion in my personal approach I'm going to have to blame my upbringing. 

Well to a point yes. Much is theory and theory is a long way from fact. The Higgs is now fact, so that indicates to me we will get more as we go along, and I'm kind of expecting a tipping point  like with element discovery, it started of well then went great. It's more than ancient mysticism in my view mainly because of the Higgs. That too was theory until conformed. It shows there is somthing to all the quantum theory. 

Quantum theory is demonstrable fact--but there's nothing mystical about it. There's no such thing as the supernatural, only nature, yet to be described.

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On3Truly
12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Quantum theory is demonstrable fact--but there's nothing mystical about it. There's no such thing as the supernatural, only nature, yet to be described.

Really? That doesn't seems to be what some of the pionners of quantum physics thought.

11wgj21.jpg

2ngc5yu.jpg

6h14s9.jpg

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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psyche101
2 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

It's nothing really new in the history of science and philosophy. 19th century scientists were talking about a clockwork, mechanistic Universe with its gears governed by the laws of physics . There were also atheists and die-hard materialists in the ancient greek civilization.

No debate and a voice has been strikes by the church for self-preservation, with our knowledge and modern communication its a new thing altogether. 

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psyche101
16 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Quantum theory is demonstrable fact--but there's nothing mystical about it. There's no such thing as the supernatural, only nature, yet to be described.

Well said but... 

Is that a statement or demonstration? Just so you know I'm good with both but curious all the same. 

I've been thinking about it, but would you say that debating religion can sound like it, due to the subject matter? I appreciate that you can consider both as separate things, but most can't and when discussions get heated, I could see where you ate coming from.  

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psyche101
9 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

Really? That doesn't seems to be what some of the pionners of quantum physics thought.

11wgj21.jpg

2ngc5yu.jpg

6h14s9.jpg

Bohr died in 62, Schrodinger I  61, and Heisenberg in 76.

Your way behind, the LHC didn't exist then. All that is irrelevant in 2018.

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psyche101
1 hour ago, Kismit said:

I publicly announce I truly like your style Sherapy :wub:

Oh gees....... Other posters gave feelings too you know!!!!!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL JUST MESSING WITH YA!!!!!!!  :w00t:

I agree :)

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eight bits

psyche

Quote

I don't agree sorry, Will still strongly indicated a single God and even claimed it to he a he, in his world philosophy that everyone knows 'God' I don't agree that everyone knows God, I don't agree everyone accepts a creator, gods have taken many forms or not at all. Its not unity, concepts from Europe to Australia to remote islands all have different conceptions. There is no one true God, there are many and they bow to our imagination and are shaped by our cultural aspects.

I haven't seen Will comment (and am disappointed in him for that; it was his question). I've stated why I would answer his question as I would, expressed openness to correction from him, have gotten nothing back, and so you and I don't even reach "agree to disagree," we just grind to a halt.

You and I agree that "gods" have taken many forms, but we agree because thus interpreted, the question is fatuous. Will doesn't come across to me as the asker of fatuities.

Taking a step back to your version of the question, where a hypothetical English-speaker asks whether any group of people lacks a concept of "God," and gives assurance that the capital-G is essential to them, then I would answer yes. As you would.

Even in the hypothetical case, however, I would suspect that the information really sought is "What, if anything, is nearly universal in human thought bearing on religion?," regardless of time and culture. I affirmatively believe that Hume got that right: the idea of invisible, intelligent power. Belief that IIP exists and what is believed about it  are additional questions; the near-universal is the concept, possibly accepted and possibly rejected.

I also think that no amount of word play will defeat the proposition that what living atheists characteristically reject is the existence of IIP, and what almost everybody else accepts is the serious possibility that IIP does or has existed. Like, for example, the Piraha, along with the ancient Greek devotees of Zeus, ...etc.

It is absurd that if it turned out, for example, that Gabriel and his peers existed and were the highest order of being, then Dawkins would be viewed as having gotten it right, 'cause there is no Protestant god, just powerful, immortal, supernatural intervenors in human affairs who live in Heaven. But hey, they don't use the g-word for themselves and that's what counts.

Yeah, that's what Dawkins has in mind. That's what Hitchens meant when he said that "God" wasn't great - Gabe, Mike and their pals are. Sure, that'll fly.

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psyche101
8 minutes ago, eight bits said:

psyche

I haven't seen Will comment (and am disappointed in him for that; it was his question). I've stated why I would answer his question as I would, expressed openness to correction from him, have gotten nothing back, and so you and I don't even reach "agree to disagree," we just grind to a halt.

You and I agree that "gods" have taken many forms, but we agree because thus interpreted, the question is fatuous. Will doesn't come across to me as the asker of fatuities.

Taking a step back to your version of the question, where a hypothetical English-speaker asks whether any group of people lacks a concept of "God," and gives assurance that the capital-G is essential to them, then I would answer yes. As you would.

Even in the hypothetical case, however, I would suspect that the information really sought is "What, if anything, is nearly universal in human thought bearing on religion?," regardless of time and culture. I affirmatively believe that Hume got that right: the idea of invisible, intelligent power. Belief that IIP exists and what is believed about it  are additional questions; the near-universal is the concept, possibly accepted and possibly rejected.

I also think that no amount of word play will defeat the proposition that what living atheists characteristically reject is the existence of IIP, and what almost everybody else accepts is the serious possibility that IIP does or has existed. Like, for example, the Piraha, along with the ancient Greek devotees of Zeus, ...etc.

It is absurd that if it turned out, for example, that Gabriel and his peers existed and were the highest order of being, then Dawkins would be viewed as having gotten it right, 'cause there is no Protestant god, just powerful, immortal, supernatural intervenors in human affairs who live in Heaven. But hey, they don't use the g-word for themselves and that's what counts.

Yeah, that's what Dawkins has in mind. That's what Hitchens meant when he said that "God" wasn't great - Gabe, Mike and their pals are. Sure, that'll fly.

Will did chime in post 800

Can you expand on iip please, as a spirit realm, a single power, dimensional or Spinoza? 

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eight bits

psyche

Thank you for that link, I flat out missed that post this morning when I was trying to catch up. My bad. And now I'm not disappointed in Will.

Having read that, I still think Will's choice of words sometimes conflates what he thinks the real causal agent is (his own God) with how the person having the numinous experience (or hearing about somebody else's) makes sense of it. I cannot imagine there is any serious question that some people say "dopamine," while other people would praise Zeus, who is neither Supreme, nor unique, nor a creator, and still others would intuit "spirits" or "elementals" of whatever sort (jinn, fairies, and so on).

The universals would be the category of experience, and the concept of invisible, intelligent power. The concept might, possibly after some deliberation, be rejected as the explanation of the experience, but some version of the concept would very likely be available for consideration.

Quote

Can you expand on iip please, as a spirit realm, a single power, dimensional or Spinoza?

The phrase is Hume's, from The Natural History of Religion. I believe he meant his phrase to encompass all the ideas people have had about those things that Will refers to as "greater than ourselves." Here are some other examples of Hume's using the phrase, apart from the one I gave earlier (that one had to do with universality):

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/hume/david/h92n/section5.html

Hume is clearly familiar with Christianity, classical religion and philosophy, and Spinoza, too, I think. It's hard to imagine that he could have been unaware of the folk "invisibles" of his own and neighboring cultures. I believe he meant to cast a wide net, knowing on the one hand the riotous variety of ideas of this kind, and on the other hand, that just about everybody seems to have some such idea.

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joc
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

I believe he meant to cast a wide net, knowing on the one hand the riotous variety of ideas of this kind, and on the other hand, that just about everybody seems to have some such idea.

Honestly I don't know anything about Hume.  But ...just about everybody seems to have some such idea...clicked a memory within of the recent past.

I posted on a different thread about an Island where there are for the most part only lizards and snakes.  The Lizards...from the moment they hatch out of their eggs are aware of the snakes as well as the inherent dangers they face.  They must traverse a wide space to reach the rocks and then climb high enough upon the rocks or they will be killed and eaten by the snakes.  They know this from the moment they escape their egg at birth.  

Which means...that they know this from their DNA.  It has to be something about a repeated action over and over and over again that eventually effects the memory of the DNA itself and we call that Instinct.   That...just about everybody seems to have some such idea...of God..or a Higher Power seems to be something along the line of memory of DNA or Instinctual Thought.   My question is how did that memory get there?  Was it over hundreds of thousands of years of story telling of experience that had no answers?  Eons of Superstition that clouded the otherwise new vibe of increased neo-cortex?   Ancient memories of something else?  Are we that far removed really from the Lizards and the Snakes?

I found a clip of the video...here ya go.  Marine Iguanas vs Snakes on Galapagos Island

 

Edited by joc
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