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Illyrius

Quantum Mysticism - dawning of the New Age

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Will Due
48 minutes ago, joc said:

Are we that far removed really from the Lizards and the Snakes?

 

That was a good article by Hume Eight. It does describe how the activities of, and on our minds evolves early religion very well.

 

Joc,

DNA is not the only thing that influences species to act. The mind is not material, eventhough it overlays the physical brain like software runs on the hardware of a computer. But the software of a computer is not mind.

Animal mind is additionally influenced by the ministry of spirit "God is Spirit" and from the most primitive life forms to the most complex (us) these spirit influences compel all animals forward in evolution.

There are seven of these mind adjutant spirits and they breakdown this way. 

 

1. The spirit of intuition—quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

 

2. The spirit of understanding—the impulse of co-ordination, the spontaneous and apparently automatic association of ideas. This is the gift of the co-ordination of acquired knowledge, the phenomenon of quick reasoning, rapid judgment, and prompt decision.

 

3. The spirit of courage—the fidelity endowment—in personal beings, the basis of character acquirement and the intellectual root of moral stamina and spiritual bravery. When enlightened by facts and inspired by truth, this becomes the secret of the urge of evolutionary ascension by the channels of intelligent and conscientious self-direction.

 

4. The spirit of knowledge—the curiosity-mother of adventure and discovery, the scientific spirit; the guide and faithful associate of the spirits of courage and counsel; the urge to direct the endowments of courage into useful and progressive paths of growth.

 

5. The spirit of counsel—the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.

 

6. The spirit of worship—the religious impulse, the first differential urge separating mind creatures into the two basic classes of mortal existence. The spirit of worship forever distinguishes the animal of its association from the soulless creatures of mind endowment. Worship is the badge of spiritual-ascension candidacy.

 

7. The spirit of wisdom—the inherent tendency of all moral creatures towards orderly and progressive evolutionary advancement. This is the highest of the adjutants, the spirit co-ordinator and articulator of the work of all the others. This spirit is the secret of that inborn urge of mind creatures which initiates and maintains the practical and effective program of the ascending scale of existence; that gift of living things which accounts for their inexplicable ability to survive and, in survival, to utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned. Wisdom is the acme of intellectual performance. Wisdom is the goal of a purely mental and moral existence.
 
* The 6th and 7th adjutants function only with humans and is the major difference between man and all other animals.
 
 
Getting back to how God is in contact with us all, modern and primitive men and women, this contact in the early days of man's evolution is an interesting situation indeed, especially for us to look back at from these modern times.
 
Superstition and fear played a fundamental role in how early religion evolved but today, with the objective discoveries of science, they are completely unworthy as an approach to understanding God, religion.
 
If you would like to read more about the early evolution of religion, you can do so here:
 
 
 
 
 
 
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joc
6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

DNA is not the only thing that influences species to act. The mind is not material, eventhough it overlays the physical brain like software runs on the hardware of a computer. But the software of a computer is not mind.

Animal mind is additionally influenced by the ministry of spirit "God is Spirit" and from the most primitive life forms to the most complex (us) these spirit influences compel all animals forward in evolution.

There are seven of these mind adjutant spirits and they breakdown this way. 

Thanks Will.  I appreciate your response.  However; you continue to seek answers from within the context of, 'God is'.  I am seeking answers to why God is...or rather... why the Belief in God/Gods is.

I can only conclude from my own thought process that at some point in the evolution of the human brain...humans began to question Existence itself.  Through this Questioning came an understanding that there were Forces that Humans could not control.  These Forces are the forces of nature.  But a new mind...questioning existence itself had no knowledge of those Forces.  And a series of epiphanies about all that became the Belief.  

  

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Crazy Horse
13 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Isn't that what the polio vaccine did? 

I'm not understandung why the 'one' is so important to you?  Diversity brings us new experiences. Entropy changes states, and of you believe in a creator, then how is diversity not the intention considering entropy? 

So whats the point in convoluting everyday life with a God?

And if a creator created this situation, why should it not be seen as a terrible attribute? 

No, marketing vaccines isn't God helping those who help themselves, that idea is absurd, like how could God, or perhaps a better word would be 'Karma', how could karma help those who are poisoning our children? The idea is ridiculous. No, we have the insatiable greed to thank for those things.

Why is Oneness so important? Put it like this, a cosmology that states that you and God are two separate beings, will lead to a theology of separateness, this will lead to a sociology of separateness, which has lead us to a pathology of division, read greed, hate, war, poverty and even the environment devastation too.

There is nothing wrong with diversity, I never suggested such a thing, after all, in my belief system we are all differentiated unites of divine energy all held within the Mind of God. Relativley speaking we are unique beings, but in the ultimate sense, we are all One. I realise this might be a bit hard to wrap your head around all at once but...

And whats the point of convolting with God every day? If you tried you wouldnt be asking such a thing.

And again this attitude, "blah blah, blame God, blah blah, it isn't my responsibility" - you just answered your own question.

Edit: oops, just read Kismets post regarding no more vaccine stuff, sorry.

Edited by Crazy Horse
Oops
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Crazy Horse
13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Well thank you, you dear sweet man.

I want to say I love reading the male perspective just as much, I learn a lot quite frankly. 

I admire the frankness and directness that posters like X, or psyche and eighty, hammies have. 

What would be a great start is if we could strike that balance on UM.

I honestly think everyone here cares about humanity, enough to be on UM evaluating their beliefs. 

I love that line; "What would be a great start is if we could strike that balance on UM."

Absoflippinglutley! (smiley face).

This idea of the masculine and feminine energies working together is in my opinion, an absolute must for humanity. Within ourselves and within society too. The conscious and sub-conscious minds working together, the left and right hemispheres of our brain, and the ballence between a compassion and wisdom too.

 

 

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eight bits

joc

Damn; that is one powerful video. Well found.

Hume did ponder whether the idea of invisible intelligent power might be instinctive. On the other hand, it's very hard to tell the difference between something that you pick up on very quickly versus something that is truly innate. Hume pondered something like that, too.

In a state of nature, it is simply a fact that there are powers invisible to us, except for their effects that we clearly do see: gravity, disease pathogens, whatever makes plants grow, even our own breath, which seems to be the very stuff of life. How hard is it to imagine that some of those invisible powers are sometimes animated by intelligence?

And how far is that from the truth? Influenza keeps coming back year after year because of an adpative collective response to our efforts to resist it. It is a mistake to impute intelligence to the virus, but is it a mistake to impute intelligence to the apparatus of natural selection as a whole? (Sometimes, this thought is expressed by proverbs like "ants aren't intelligent, but ant colonies are.")

Beats me, but holds my interest.

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Crazy Horse
13 hours ago, Kismit said:

This I agree with. It is the reason when someone has wronged me in the past. I let them go. They will face thier karma when they truly reflect on thier actions. That is my belief but I can not prove it as fact to anyone else.

I also believe in reincarnation, the stories are on here I know who my children where last time around. 

I still believe however that the realities of death are as inescapable to every human being as the realities of life. I can't see how knowing or understanding, or indeed, not knowing or understanding, a concept of God will change that. 

I can not change the fact I age, or I die, or I stick to the ground and don't fall off the Earth. How can the nature of things be different after we die?

Yes, that is my belief too, that life is never ending, this life, the next, and the ones after.. So growing old and dying is a natural part of it here in the physical, so the question in my mind isn't whether we live or not, but how?

And it is my experience that a conscious connection to THAT which we might call God, or something else, perhaps Harold, or Sydney, anyway, whatever, a conscious connection is what reminds us of who we really are - and that is Divine Beings.

This will make this life, and the next, fabulous, glorious, wonderful and amazing..

Or at least it has the potential too!

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Crazy Horse
10 hours ago, Kismit said:

Mod Note: The topic is Quantum Mysticism not wether or not to Vaccinate your chuld.

Please feel free to start a seperate thread for that discussion if that's what your into.

Have just started a thread on the Science and Technology boards concerning the shocking and disgusting cover-up by the CDC concerning the MMR vaccine and its link to autism. If anyones interested.

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Hammerclaw
8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Well said but... 

Is that a statement or demonstration? Just so you know I'm good with both but curious all the same. 

I've been thinking about it, but would you say that debating religion can sound like it, due to the subject matter? I appreciate that you can consider both as separate things, but most can't and when discussions get heated, I could see where you ate coming from.  

An intellect's, and/or technology so advanced over ours, so much so to be beyond conception, actions would appear quite magical, in our eyes. I think, if there is such a thing we call God, it is quite natural and comprehendible. The question is: would we have sufficient intellectual capacity to understand and grasp it in totality? Man is loath to think there is anything he might not be savvy enough to ever know. Yet, on the scale of the universe, we are such tiny things, with tiny minds, cosmic microbes, peering over the edge of their petri dish, trying to understand the greater world around them. I look out at that sea of scintillating stars, adrift in the great ocean of night that surrounds us and echo a line from the Psalms: What, indeed, is man that thou art mindful of him?

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joc
3 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Yes, that is my belief too, that life is never ending, this life, the next, and the ones after.. So growing old and dying is a natural part of it here in the physical, so the question in my mind isn't whether we live or not, but how?

And it is my experience that a conscious connection to THAT which we might call God, or something else, perhaps Harold, or Sydney, anyway, whatever, a conscious connection is what reminds us of who we really are - and that is Divine Beings.

This will make this life, and the next, fabulous, glorious, wonderful and amazing..

Or at least it has the potential too!

What i get from all that is procreation.  All life wants to live.  Our incarnate is that of Human...but if evolution is correct at all.that incarnate is also every other life form within a 'tree' of life that we sprang from.  Hmmm...the Tree of Life.

I am certain that memory changes DNA.  DNA is unique.  I believe in 'reincarnation' as the continuing of life through procreation.  The individual life dies...but the life itself continues.  I am my father, I am my grandfather, I am my grandmother, I am my grandmothers, grandmother's cousin.   Another reason why I think that belief in Gods is a genetic thing.

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Crazy Horse
9 minutes ago, joc said:

What i get from all that is procreation.  All life wants to live.  Our incarnate is that of Human...but if evolution is correct at all.that incarnate is also every other life form within a 'tree' of life that we sprang from.  Hmmm...the Tree of Life.

I am certain that memory changes DNA.  DNA is unique.  I believe in 'reincarnation' as the continuing of life through procreation.  The individual life dies...but the life itself continues.  I am my father, I am my grandfather, I am my grandmother, I am my grandmothers, grandmother's cousin.   Another reason why I think that belief in Gods is a genetic thing.

None of my family going back as far as anyone can remember are even remotely religious.

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cormac mac airt
4 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

That was a good article by Hume Eight. It does describe how the activities of, and on our minds evolves early religion very well.

 

Joc,

DNA is not the only thing that influences species to act. The mind is not material, eventhough it overlays the physical brain like software runs on the hardware of a computer. But the software of a computer is not mind.

Animal mind is additionally influenced by the ministry of spirit "God is Spirit" and from the most primitive life forms to the most complex (us) these spirit influences compel all animals forward in evolution.

There are seven of these mind adjutant spirits and they breakdown this way. 

 

1. The spirit of intuition—quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

 

2. The spirit of understanding—the impulse of co-ordination, the spontaneous and apparently automatic association of ideas. This is the gift of the co-ordination of acquired knowledge, the phenomenon of quick reasoning, rapid judgment, and prompt decision.

 

3. The spirit of courage—the fidelity endowment—in personal beings, the basis of character acquirement and the intellectual root of moral stamina and spiritual bravery. When enlightened by facts and inspired by truth, this becomes the secret of the urge of evolutionary ascension by the channels of intelligent and conscientious self-direction.

 

4. The spirit of knowledge—the curiosity-mother of adventure and discovery, the scientific spirit; the guide and faithful associate of the spirits of courage and counsel; the urge to direct the endowments of courage into useful and progressive paths of growth.

 

5. The spirit of counsel—the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.

 

6. The spirit of worship—the religious impulse, the first differential urge separating mind creatures into the two basic classes of mortal existence. The spirit of worship forever distinguishes the animal of its association from the soulless creatures of mind endowment. Worship is the badge of spiritual-ascension candidacy.

 

7. The spirit of wisdom—the inherent tendency of all moral creatures towards orderly and progressive evolutionary advancement. This is the highest of the adjutants, the spirit co-ordinator and articulator of the work of all the others. This spirit is the secret of that inborn urge of mind creatures which initiates and maintains the practical and effective program of the ascending scale of existence; that gift of living things which accounts for their inexplicable ability to survive and, in survival, to utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned. Wisdom is the acme of intellectual performance. Wisdom is the goal of a purely mental and moral existence.
 
* The 6th and 7th adjutants function only with humans and is the major difference between man and all other animals.
 
 
Getting back to how God is in contact with us all, modern and primitive men and women, this contact in the early days of man's evolution is an interesting situation indeed, especially for us to look back at from these modern times.
 
Superstition and fear played a fundamental role in how early religion evolved but today, with the objective discoveries of science, they are completely unworthy as an approach to understanding God, religion.
 
If you would like to read more about the early evolution of religion, you can do so here:
 

Just curious, why do you use an obvious work of fiction as a source for anything?

cormac

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Will Due
34 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Just curious, why do you use an obvious work of fiction as a source for anything?

cormac

 

Well, what's obvious for some, is obviously, obviously true for others. 

You're not the last word when it comes to proclaiming what is true are you?

Besides, what is said in the UB is at least very interesting don't ya think? And provides info about things that no one has ever heard of before. 

How about keeping an open mind.

Did you read the link about how and why early religion evolved? 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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cormac mac airt
30 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Well, what's obvious for some, is obviously, obviously true for others. 

You're not the last word when it comes to proclaiming what is true are you?

Besides, what is said in the UB is at least very interesting don't ya think? And provides info about things that no one has ever heard of before. 

How about keeping an open mind.

Did you read the link about how and why early religion evolved? 

And you're not even the first word on the subject, so what's your point?

I don't find made-up facts interesting. I find them embarrassing. 

Yes, and I read many of the timelines and scenarios therein which are obvious fiction and that's where it all goes south. You might as well be telling people humans started in Atlantis for all the difference it makes. 

Examples:

Quote

57:1.3 (651.5) 987,000,000,000 years ago...

Quote

57:1.4 (651.6) 900,000,000,000 years ago...

Quote

57:1.6 (652.2) 875,000,000,000 years ago...

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-57-origin-urantia

That's BILLIONS of years. As evidenced by science our Universe is only some 13.8 billion years old. 

Also:

Quote

62:0.1 (703.1) ABOUT one million years ago the immediate ancestors of mankind made their appearance by three successive and sudden mutations stemming from early stock of the lemur type of placental mammal. The dominant factors of these early lemurs were derived from the western or later American group of the evolving life plasm. But before establishing the direct line of human ancestry, this strain was reinforced by contributions from the central life implantation evolved in Africa. The eastern life group contributed little or nothing to the actual production of the human species.

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-62-dawn-races-early-man

Not only doesn't our direct ancestry have anything to do with lemurs but our earliest ancestor in the genus Homo is 2.8 MILLION years old making the claim above completely irrelevant. 

https://www.academia.edu/11376489/Early_Homo_at_2.8_Ma_from_Ledi-Geraru_Afar_Ethiopia

If the writers, whomever they were, couldn't even get the origins of our planet let alone the origins of our genus right why do you promote their fiction as any version of credible? Their origin stories aren't just wrong they're embarrassingly wrong IMO.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
date correction
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Will Due
14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

And you're not even the first word on the subject, so what's your point?

I don't find made-up facts interesting. I find them embarrassing. 

Yes, and I read many of the timelines and scenarios therein which are obvious fiction and that's where it all goes south. You might as well be telling people humans started in Atlantis for all the difference it makes. 

Examples:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-57-origin-urantia

That's BILLIONS of years. As evidenced by science our Universe is only some 13.8 billion years old. 

Also:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-62-dawn-races-early-man

Not only doesn't our direct ancestry have anything to do with lemurs but our earliest ancestor in the genus Homo is 2.8 MILLION years old making the claim above completely irrelevant. 

https://www.academia.edu/11376489/Early_Homo_at_2.8_Ma_from_Ledi-Geraru_Afar_Ethiopia

If the writers, whomever they were, couldn't even get the origins of our planet let alone the origins of our genus right why do you promote their fiction as any version of credible? Their origin stories aren't just wrong they're embarrassingly wrong IMO.

cormac

 

But you forget that science is in its infancy.

What scientists said was a fact about the evolution of man in the 50's isn't a fact anymore. How do you reconcile this fact?

Science will keep self-revising as new discoveries are made.

The information that's presented in the Urantia Book will stand on the record for thousands of years. What then, when in 3 or 4 thousand years from now, what you seem to worship as irrefutable fact is embarrassingly shown to be wrong?

Especially when the scientific facts of the future reveal the accuracy of what you're so determined to think of as fiction.

We'll see how it all turns out. If we survive this life to the next world that is.

 

 

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jmccr8
10 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

If the writers, whomever they were, couldn't even get the origins of our planet let alone the origins of our genus right why do you promote their fiction as any version of credible? as a credible sourcet Their origin stories aren't just wrong they're embarrassingly wrong IMO.

2

Yes, it makes for a good sci-fantasy read but to suggest that there are any elements of reality is quite the stretch and there seem to be an odd means of origins part of it was self-written while in a vault and the balance of it by a man who channeled it with no recollection from alien entities. I think that for some the inclusion of an expanded Jesus story coupled with making him an alien is what draws people in. In general, my opinion is if an individual finds some assurance in it and lives life as a decent being fine, as for pushing it on others or referring it as a credible source I am less inclined to take a person's argument seriously.

jmccr8

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cormac mac airt
9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But you forget that science is in its infancy.

What scientists said was a fact about the evolution of man in the 50's isn't a fact anymore. How do you reconcile this fact?

Science will keep self-revising as new discoveries are made.

The information that's presented in the Urantia Book will stand on the record for thousands of years. What then, when in 3 or 4 thousand years from now, what you seem to worship as irrefutable fact is embarrassingly shown to be wrong?

Especially when the scientific facts of the future reveal the accuracy of what you're so determined to think of as fiction.

We'll see how it all turns out. If we survive this life to the next world that is.

Science is a lot further ahead than you'll likely ever give it credit for, but then your argument has already collapsed.

And yet we STILL know that we don't descend from lemurs. 

It's never going to be on the scales of the Urantia Book. 

Nope it'll be forgotten in 100 years, if that, along with the written works of many other charlatans. 

Since you've shown no actual knowledge of the future so far your ramblings can be dismissed as meaningless.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Will Due
4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Yes, it makes for a good sci-fantasy read but to suggest that there are any elements of reality is quite the stretch and there seem to be an odd means of origins part of it was self-written while in a vault and the balance of it by a man who channeled it with no recollection from alien entities. I think that for some the inclusion of an expanded Jesus story coupled with making him an alien is what draws people in. In general, my opinion is if an individual finds some assurance in it and lives life as a decent being fine, as for pushing it on others or referring it as a credible source I am less inclined to take a person's argument seriously.

jmccr8

 

You know what, everytime you refer to it, it gets taken more and more serious by the seriously honest who seek and love the truth. 

Thanks for your help. :D

 

 

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But you forget that science is in its infancy.

It is not so young or misguided as to what we know now about how life evolved on this planet.

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

What scientists said was a fact about the evolution of man in the 50's isn't a fact anymore. How do you reconcile this fact?

Yes and when we discover that things that were written in the UB that was wrong assumptions in the 50's your book have an easy out by saying that they can't correct us on any false premiss and allow us to carry on and yet deem it worthwhile to give and unsupportable past history for the presence of man.

11 minutes ago, Will Due said:

The information that's presented in the Urantia Book will stand on the record for thousands of years. What then, when in 3 or 4 thousand years from now, what you seem to worship as irrefutable fact is embarrassingly shown to be wrong?

By then I expect that it will not be taken seriously and they will wonder how/why did anyone believe this or quite possibly one of the large entertainment companies will make an epic movie about it that will be on par with Lord of the Rings.

15 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Especially when the scientific facts of the future reveal the accuracy of what you're so determined to think of as fiction.

We'll see how it all turns out. If we survive this life to the next world that is.

The will never be scientific discoveries that will support this book as having any fact other than it is a book, and I don't have to wait til the next world to find out.

jmccr8

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Will Due
2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Science is a lot further ahead than you'll likely ever give it credit for, but then your argument has already collapsed.

And yet we STILL know that we don't descend from lemurs. 

It's never going to be on the scales of the Urantia Book. 

Nope it'll be forgotten in 100 years, if that, along with the written works of many other charlatans. 

Since you've shown to actual knowledge of the future so far your ramblings can be dismissed as meaningless.

cormac

 

Thanks to you too cormac.

For helping to spread the good news that heaven has recently contacted mankind in a way he can finally understand.

This is true primarily because science has started to eliminate superstitious thought, which has laid the groundwork for being able to assimilate a whole lot of startling new information about life, which the over-informed might be inclined to only accept as fiction, which is alright, while the average Joe sees it for what it really is. :D 

 

 

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Illyrius

Science often employs the principle of Reduction. Reductionists are of opinion that complex system can be explained when it gets dissected into simple parts. To explain what is meant here; Let’s take for example physics. Science reduces everything to empirical facts, which is not that bad because empirical facts mean a certainty – on observable tangible certainty. But separated facts are always a subject of interpretation. When applied to study of consciousness for example, reductionism shows inadequacy. Freud for example tried to quantify and simplify psychology and was fond of explaining soul phenomena through glasses of Newtonian mechanics but common sense knows this is nonsensical, because we intuitively KNOW there is more to art than mathematics for example. There is soul, and a free will. Universe is not a machine but ALIVE. And man is not without a free will.

Edited by Illyrius
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jmccr8
11 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

You know what, everytime you refer to it, it gets taken more and more serious by the seriously honest who seek and love the truth. 

Thanks for your help. :D

 

 

:lol: Make sure you don't get hurt in the ensuing stampede to the bookstore.:whistle:

jmccr8

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Will Due
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

:lol: Make sure you don't get hurt in the ensuing stampede to the bookstore.:whistle:

jmccr8

 

It's online for free. Will.

 

 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

It's online for free. Will.

 

 

So is the bible and the koran and the majority still buy books so what is your point that people that are going to follow the UB are not willing to part with their hard earned cash so they can have a copy of the real thing right there so everyone can see it or when need be propping up a table leg?:lol:

jmccr8

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cormac mac airt
8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Thanks to you too cormac.

For helping to spread the good news that heaven has recently contacted mankind in a way he can finally understand.

This is true primarily because science has started to eliminate superstitious thought, which has laid the groundwork for being able to assimilate a whole lot of startling new information about life, which the over-informed might be inclined to only accept as fiction, which is alright, while the average Joe sees it for what it really is. :D 

Yes, gullibility in force. Congratulations. 

cormac

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Will Due
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

So is the bible and the koran and the majority still buy books so what is your point that people that are going to follow the UB are not willing to part with their hard earned cash so they can have a copy of the real thing right there so everyone can see it or when need be propping up a table leg?:lol:

jmccr8

 

I like you jmccr8. 

I'm curious, is your last name r2d2?

 

 

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