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Illyrius

Quantum Mysticism - dawning of the New Age

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DebDandelion
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Will, this is not the way argumentation works, one makes a claim they support it, with facts, it is called giving the facts. 

And if one has none, they say they have nothing this is called establishing credibility.. 

 

Given ..Sherapy....but it is a beautiful philosophical piece of wisdom

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psyche101
18 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Well I was trying to make a distinction between spirituality and spirit itself.

In other words, what spirit is, as an influence that makes us lean towards the spiritual.

Spirit as it is primal.

I don't see how that is not just indoctrination and having scientific inquiry suppressed by the church for self preservation. 

We have been living this fable for so long that we have not only come to believe it, but some defend it ruthlessly. 

If one person on earth was going around talking about some bloke who is the son of a deity turning water into wine, materialising fishes, walks on water, healed the sick by touch and comes back from the dead, that person would not be taken seriously and might even be mentally evaluated. Because millions of people accept it its not a problem. 

Quote

 

Btw, my sympathies to you and your family for the loss of your father.

 

 

Thank you its been over ten years but he will remain in my memory for as long as I live. I do miss him terribly. 

Edited by psyche101
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Will Due
20 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

If one person in earth was going around talking about some bloke who is the son of a deity turning water into wine, materialising fishes, walks on water, healed the sick by touch and comes back from the dead, that person would not be taken seriously and might even be mentally evaluated. Because millions of people accept it its not a problem. 

 

Oh boy, do I have a book.for you.

(Just kidding)

 

 

20 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I don't see how that is not just indoctrination and having scientific inquiry suppressed by the church for self preservation. 

 

The function of science is limited to validating material realities objectively. 

I can accept that not everybody has an understanding of spirit the same way as someone else.

But can you accept the subjective experiences people have with spirit realities as being valid personally too?

In other words, we're all living our lives and trying to understand what is most important aren't we? How better, than to get to know each other. 

 

Here's something to ponder in that regard:

"In the mind's eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times—a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them."

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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Hammerclaw

Beliefs aren't facts. Facts are something known to be true, to be factual, with collateral data to support them. Beliefs are something you accept to be true in the absence of factual supporting information. Belief is getting off the bus at the Cathedral, while it continues on to the University.

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psyche101
39 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Oh boy, do I have a book.for you.

(Just kidding)

 

:)

Quote

 

The function of science is limited to validating material realities objectively. 

I don't know, we measure the weak forces in nature, as this thread illustrates quantum mechanics  which delves into virtual particles and grant it, suspected to traverse dimensions, would you consider those forces and energies 'material' as well? 

Quote

I can accept that not everybody has an understanding of spirit the same way as someone else.

But can you accept the subjective experiences people have with spirit realities as being valid personally too?

If course, it's just that there are more practical explanations than the supernatural and I have no doubt that extends to every case as long as we have enough information. 

What most likely is the best and fairest option we have. And unless some mysterious unseen force has managed to evade every scientific experiment across all time and every chance at gathering proof or people make stuff up based on what we keep telling each other for the last few thousand years. 

I mean really, what's more likely here? 

Quote

In other words, we're all living our lives and trying to understand what is most important aren't we? How better, than to get to know each other. 

If the people pushing ancient superstitions put as much effort into staying on the cutting edge of discovery and knowledge, my bet is we would not have anywhere near as many people pushing ancient superstitions. 

Knowledge is an honest common goal. 

Quote

Here's something to ponder in that regard:

"In the mind's eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times—a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them."

 

 

Indeed and its a good analogy, and why people so fiercely defend something without proof. Superstition and religion are being eroded by science, no two ways about it. Some compensate by attributing evil to science, be it 'the man' government or just lies, but these claims are unsupported and clearly self defence against something they know deep down to be true. Factually, God is an Easter Bunny, a Santa Clause. I am stunned that grown ups give such flimsy ideas credence at all to be honest. All God's like the Roman Gods, The Greek Gods eventually end up in the halls of myth. I think many dread that, and the loss of hope for an afterlife so they bang this drum in a futile hope. 

Its been a couple thousand years, the modern rewritten Gods have stayed on  longer than they should have, they should join the Greek and Roman Gods in the halls of myth and allow the species to progress into a brave new world. These superstitions I honestly feel hold us back as a species and create too much pain and suffering unnecessarily. 

Edited by psyche101
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Hre2breal
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Beliefs aren't facts. Facts are something known to be true, to be factual, with collateral data to support them. Beliefs are something you accept to be true in the absence of factual supporting information. Belief is getting off the bus at the Cathedral, while it continues on to the University.

Facts accompanied by collateral data to support them,  ultimately rely on ones individual belief system in place to provide the bouyancy needed to accept or comprehend the edvidience provided as proof of the truth....

Simply meaning if you truly dont Believe something is the truth, It really doesnt matter what it is accompanied by. Your instinct will tell you it is not a real fact because you dont Believe it...

 "Facts therefore rely on ones instinctual Belief system"

As for the bus ride...Both a cathedral an a university are places of great learning an knowledge an would have to reign in a realm of greatness in the sense of intellect an spirituality in oppinion.......

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Its been a couple thousand years, the modern rewritten Gods have stayed on  longer than they should have, they should join the Greek and Roman Gods in the halls of myth and allow the species to progress into a brave new world. These superstitions I honestly feel hold us back as a species and create too much pain and suffering unnecessarily. 

With all due respect, Psyche, the human race and it's history didn't begin two thousand years ago, before that the world was rife with unnecessary pain and suffering, not driven by religion and superstition for the most part, but by greed and avarice and xenophobia--the same as it is today. We've grown more sophisticated in our justifications. Social and geopolitical animosity taking front and center, pushing religion aside in favor of other convoluted reasons to kill our fellow man. The reason Christianity took root and persisted is that it offered a way to break the cycle of life and death by offering life again, eternal life, free from all pain and suffering, reuniting one with all of those that we cherish in a wonderful new existence. 

Perhaps it is, after all, only a fools hope, but the alternative is to embrace the fatalistic acceptance of finite existence and the ultimate futility of life, itself, and most people shy away from that horrific conclusion. Death comes to us all. One day, we will all face the truth, or oblivion.

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Hammerclaw
18 minutes ago, Hre2breal said:

Facts accompanied by collateral data to support them,  ultimately rely on ones individual belief system in place to provide the bouyancy needed to accept or comprehend the edvidience provided as proof of the truth....

Simply meaning if you truly dont Believe something is the truth, It really doesnt matter what it is accompanied by. Your instinct will tell you it is not a real fact because you dont Believe it...

 "Facts therefore rely on ones instinctual Belief system"

As for the bus ride...Both a cathedral an a university are places of great learning an knowledge an would have to reign in a realm of greatness in the sense of intellect an spirituality in oppinion.......

No, facts rely on facts, everyday, mundane, ordinary facts, one can see taste feel and touch, verifiable knowledge predicated by logic and reason. Beliefs need none of that, relying as they do on things unseen and knowledge, unknowable save by that of a heart and mind that simply believes.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Hre2breal
4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, facts rely on facts, everyday, mundane, ordinary facts, one can see taste feel and touch, verifiable knowledge predicated by logic and reason. Beliefs need none of that, relying as they do on things unseen and knowledge, unknowable save by that of a heart and mind that simply believes.

There comes the variation of facts an beliefs...One is ones own temple, We are our own proof, speaking of everyday individual experince we need no facts we feel it, we see it, we smell it, we live it.In this circumstance we rely on instinct. Nature is its own guide an in within nature we are just a link in the chain..Our souls watch over our instincts I believe thats why we can trust it like we should..Our heart is needed for empathy an emotion, All are soul facts , soul beliefs..Forever present..

 

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psyche101
51 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

With all due respect, Psyche, the human race and it's history didn't begin two thousand years ago, before that the world was rife with unnecessary pain and suffering, not driven by religion and superstition for the most part, but by greed and avarice and xenophobia--the same as it is today. We've grown more sophisticated in our justifications. Social and geopolitical animosity taking front and center, pushing religion aside in favor of other convoluted reasons to kill our fellow man. The reason Christianity took root and persisted is that it offered a way to break the cycle of life and death by offering life again, eternal life, free from all pain and suffering, reuniting one with all of those that we cherish in a wonderful new existence. 

Yes I agree that greed and xenophobia exist, and a person can do good or bad with what they have. One can praise God and help the needy as a missionary or picket with Westboro. That's a  choice I agree. One cannot deny that religion is a motivator though, as if we didn't have enough to blight human nature, the last thing we need is another reason to oppose each other. The Christian Muslim wars have raged for centuries, the Mayans and Aztecs sacrificed more than can be counted to God's that nobody cares about now. 

Reformation of Christianity brought it a bit more up to speed with modern times and it evolves as culture does. We question this word that we also use as a guide line. If God exists and is all knowing this just shouldn't happen. 

As I've mentioned before, I don't think the people are the problem and I just think as a species in todays works we should be able to do better. I think the systems are too archaic to work with modern knowledge and that should prompt us to enter a new era in understanding. It's created a lot if war, a lot of death, and a lot of conflict. 

There simply has to be a better way. 

Quote

Perhaps it is, after all, only a fools hope, but the alternative is to embrace the fatalistic acceptance of finite existence and the ultimate futility of life, itself, and most people shy away from that horrific conclusion. Death comes to us all. One day, we will all face the truth, or oblivion.

Indeed and if it gives an individual comfort, that's great. I do feel though that I am living proof that we can move past religion and not only retain wonder at nature  but hope for a better future. I cannot see how it would not benefit all to recognise a finite existance and focus on those yet to come, and what we will leave them as a legacy. 

Edited by psyche101
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crookedspiral
34 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, facts rely on facts, everyday, mundane, ordinary facts, one can see taste feel and touch, verifiable knowledge predicated by logic and reason. Beliefs need none of that, relying as they do on things unseen and knowledge, unknowable save by that of a heart and mind that simply believes.

As The Nag Hammadi Library's Concept of our Great Powers says:

We have behaved according to our fleshy origin, in the creation of the Rulers which establishes law. Yet we are the ones who have come to live in the unchangeable aeon.

 

 

Edited by TruthSeeker_

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

As The Nag Hammadi Library's Concept of our Great Powers says:

We have behaved according to our fleshy origin, in the creation of the Rulers which establishes law. Yet we are the ones who have come to live in the unchangeable aeon.

 

 

And that rut will remain with is as long as some of us continue to embrace 11th century thinking and wallow in it. 

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Hammerclaw
Just now, psyche101 said:

Yes I agree that greed and xenophobia exist, and a person can do good or bad with what they have. One cannot deny that religion is a motivator, as if we didn't have enough to blight human mature, the last thing we need is another reason to oppose each other. The Christian Muslim wars have raged for centuries, the Mass and Aztecs sacrificed more than can be counted to God's that nobody cares about now. 

Reformation of Christianity brought to a bit more up to speed with modern times and it evolves as culture does. We question this word that we also use as a guide line. If God exists and is all knowing this just shouldn't happen. 

As I've mentioned before, I don't think the people are the problem and I just think as a species in todays works we should be able to do better. I think the systems are too archaic to work with modern knowledge and that should prompt us to enter a new era in understanding. It's created a lot if war, a lot of death, and a lot of conflict. 

There simply has to be a better way. 

Indeed and if it gives an individual comfort, that's great. I do feel though that I am living proof that we can move past religion and not only retain wonder at nature  but hope for a better future. I cannot see how it would not benefit all to recognise a finite existance and focus on those yet to come, and what we will leave them as a legacy. 

Entering an argument of logic and reason alone, a man of Faith comes as a sheep among wolves, incapable of mounting any kind of defense. To that sort of exchange, it is wise to concede victory before it starts. When it comes to death, most people are neither logical or reasonable. They will seek some way out other than that sort of fatalistic acceptance. For instance, there are few whom I consider true atheists in the forums or elsewhere, for that manner. Even the most strident antitheists embrace some sort of alternate or designer form of mysticism or seek out an extant one. One set of rituals is replaced by another to fill the void apostasy leaves in it's wake. The true atheist is, indeed, a minority among a minority. 

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psyche101
12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Entering an argument of logic and reason alone, a man of Faith comes as a sheep among wolves, incapable of mounting any kind of defense. To that sort of exchange, it is wise to concede victory before it starts.

I honestly don't know about that. You and I have argued black and blue and I've come away with respect for you and your position. 

12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

When it comes to death, most people are neither logical or reasonable. They will seek some way out other than that sort of fatalistic acceptance. For instance, there are few whom I consider true atheists in the forums or elsewhere, for that manner. Even the most strident antitheists embrace some sort of alternate or designer form of mysticism or seek out an extant one. One set of rituals is replaced by another to fill the void apostasy leaves in it's wake. The true atheist is, indeed, a minority among a minority. 

That's possible I guess, its just not my experience or anyone I know who is atheist, and I've been surprised recently. I've been entering a new circle of friends and I've been surprised how many hold the same views that I do. Never had an outright discussion but comments here and there are more than telling. One lady I know is 74 this year and has no faith in God or another life at all, she is quite adamant that any God who would allow children to suffer malnutrition and disease by the million whilst some are 'blessed' with a lotto win is not a god she wants to meet let alone spend eternity with, she would prefer the reality of oblivion. Being from an older generation she really surprised me. 

I'm sure it's a motivator to some  but I honestly don't think it's as many as you are indicating. I get the impression you are pointing at around 8 in 10 people, correct me if I'm wrong please, but I think it would be more like 3 in 10. Entirely a guess based on personal experience but to be fair I do seem to come into contact with a lot of people that are genuine in their atheism. 

Edited by psyche101
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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

That's possible I guess, its just not my experience or anyone I know who is atheist, and I've been surprised recently. I've been entering a new circle of friends and I've been surprised how many hold the same views that I do. Never had an outright discussion but comments here and there are more than telling. One lady I know is 74 this year and has no faith in God or another life at all, she is quite adamant that any God who would allow children to suffer malnutrition and disease by the million whilst some are 'blessed' with a lotto win is not a god she wants to meet let alone spend eternity with, she would prefer the reality of oblivion. Being from an older generation she really surprised me. 

I'm sure it's a motivator to some  but I honestly don't think it's as many as you are indicating. I get the impression you are pointing at around 8 in 10 people, correct me if I'm wrong please, but I think it would be more like 3 in 10. Entirely a guess based on personal experience but to be fair I do seem to come into contact with a lot of people that are genuine in their atheism. 

Well, Australia isn't exactly a hotbed of evangelical Christianity--or any other kind, for that matter. I'm quite sure the percentage is higher there. We all seek out the like-minded, eschewing the company of those that are not, at least voluntarily. Here, with this anonymous, dispassionate form of encounter and communication, one has the opportunity to explore the thoughts and feelings, beliefs and opinions of those who are not like-minded, at all. 

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psyche101
9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, Australia isn't exactly a hotbed of evangelical Christianity--or any other kind, for that matter. I'm quite sure the percentage is higher there.

I'm honestly not sure. Sydney I hear is more faith orientated. Been some time since I've spent more than an hour changing planes there. 

When I grew up, religion was very prominent, but that was a long time ago now. 

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

We all seek out the like-minded, eschewing the company of those that are not, at least voluntarily. Here, with this anonymous, dispassionate form of encounter and communication, one has the opportunity to explore the thoughts and feelings, beliefs and opinions of those who are not like-minded, at all. 

Indeed and your a great ambassador for faith and your beliefs. I appreciate the time you have taken to illustrate your views. Your an intelligent and talented man in my opinion. 

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Hammerclaw
Just now, psyche101 said:

I'm honestly not sure. Sydney I hear is more faith orientated. Been some time since I've spent more than an hour changing planes there. 

When I grew up, religion was very prominent, but that was a long time ago now. 

Indeed and your a great ambassador for faith and your beliefs. I appreciate the time you have taken to illustrate your views. Your an intelligent and talented man in my opinion. 

So are you, but sometimes I feel you are like a pendulum at an end of it's arc. I'm curious to see what happens should it swing back to the other one.

 
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XenoFish
7 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Then I'll claim the truth.

 

 

Truth can be supported by facts. 

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Will Due
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Truth can be supported by facts. 

 

Amen.

And spirit facts can be embraced subjectively the same way other types of facts are used as proof.

Except this time, proof of spirit, personally.

 

 

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eight bits

psyche

Quote

Indeed neither are your comments about reporting you which I was responding to.

Indeed back atcha, but it is customary when responding to a post to cover all points in controversy, including those that will be left as "agreed to disagree," possibly so left for a reason briefly stated. You have about five times the posting volume that I do; you know what is customary here.

Quote

you can see how I came to that conclusion.

Yes. It is an unusual case where so much of what's widely distributed on the web can be traced back not only to its original source (the auction house), but also to its first wide disseminator (a specific series of newspaper articles).

BTW, high five to Die Welt for checking their source and correcting its most crucial departures from the truth. It is regrettable that they didn't more widely claim credit for what they did. Had they done so, they might have nipped in the bud this decade-long smear campaign againt Einstein.

Quote

It was Gutkind's God I referred to, that's essentially Yaweh isn't it?

Gutkind clearly thought so. Even within Judaism, however, there is diversity of opinion about the nature of YHWH, including (ironically enough) in the very pages of the Jewish Bible that Gutkind aspired to interpret.

When Einstein writes of closely related* literature that it is "an inexhaustible source of wisdom" and on another occasion, a collection with "many...primitive legends," there is no contradiction. On each occasion, Einstein writes to an identifiable individual, and it is not the literature that differs so much as the different uses those two specific individuals make of the literature. (And of course, there are many others like each of them.)

Quote

I think it illustrates also that Einstein saw the concept of a Yaweh type God is not viable, but probably just my personal interpretation of his letter.

Einstein certainly did reject the idea of a revealed God who intervenes in the world (of which the Jewish God is one, but nowhere near the most widely worshipped around the globe or even in the West) during his early teens, when he discovered Spinoza. I suspect his views matured a lot as he himself did, but there's no question that the 1954 letter was written by an active, well informed, long-time and present-tense admirer of Spinoza.

Quote

...  I hope it prompted the poster to at least Google spinozas God and find Einsteins view spelled out there himself.  

Yes, I think we could conclude on that shared setiment.

--------------

* The inscription appears in the usual sort of "Christian" Bible, which combines the Jewish Bible with the New Testament in a single volume. Gutkind's subject was only the Jewish Bible.

 

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XenoFish
22 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Amen.

And spirit facts can be embraced subjectively the same way other types of facts are used as proof.

Except this time, proof of spirit, personally.

 

 

Subjective experiences of spiritual matters are a 'personal true'. However they are not a testable fact. So any argument for spiritual truth is basically apples and oranges. 

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Will Due
27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Subjective experiences of spiritual matters are a 'personal true'. However they are not a testable fact. So any argument for spiritual truth is basically apples and oranges. 

 

That's right.

And the apples and oranges are as real subjectively to a person as the things that are proven objectively by science.

One type of proof works for everybody, the other only works for one person at a time.

This fact shouldn't negate the truth and reality of those kinds of subjective experiences with spirit though by others. IMHO.

This is a matter of expanding one's view of another person as the presentation of the caveman in front of the tiger demonstrated in my earlier post.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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joc
5 hours ago, psyche101 said:
5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Entering an argument of logic and reason alone, a man of Faith comes as a sheep among wolves, incapable of mounting any kind of defense. To that sort of exchange, it is wise to concede victory before it starts.

I honestly don't know about that. You and I have argued black and blue and I've come away with respect for you and your position. 

My grandfather was a preacher.  One day he told a story of working up on top of a house ....roofing I suppose...and one of the guys working was cursing badly...he said the GD word over and over....My grandfather told him something along the lines of, "If you say that one more time I will throw you off of this roof!"  

Not exactly a sheep among wolves...more of a Shepard among wolves.   But, he definitely gained the man's respect... they became best of friends, the man converted to Christianity and quit cursing and drinking and carousing around...as the story goes.

Just an anecdote.

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XenoFish
6 minutes ago, joc said:

My grandfather was a preacher.  One day he told a story of working up on top of a house ....roofing I suppose...and one of the guys working was cursing badly...he said the GD word over and over....My grandfather told him something along the lines of, "If you say that one more time I will throw you off of this roof!"  

Not exactly a sheep among wolves...more of a Shepard among wolves.   But, he definitely gained the man's respect... they became best of friends, the man converted to Christianity and quit cursing and drinking and carousing around...as the story goes.

Just an anecdote.

And no quantum physics were involved. Just psychology. 

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Hammerclaw

It only takes a spark to set fire to imagination, a single voice alone and crying out in the wilderness of life.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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