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Clockwork_Spirit

Intelligent Design: Evolution 2.0

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Illyrius
45 minutes ago, joc said:

Try this on for size.  The Baptist Church Doctrine says when you are saved...you are under an umbrella of grace...not you or anyone else can undo it.  You will go to heaven even if you committed horrific acts of violence before or afterwards because all of your sins are forgiven...past, present and future! 

Why are you talking to me about baptist church? i don't see any analogy between this and my post.

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Illyrius
1 hour ago, joc said:

You want to talk seriousness about Charles Manson and God?

Try this on for size.  The Baptist Church Doctrine says when you are saved...you are under an umbrella of grace...not you or anyone else can undo it.  You will go to heaven even if you committed horrific acts of violence before or afterwards because all of your sins are forgiven...past, present and future! 

The Baptist Church Doctrine also says if you die and you are not saved you will go to hell and burn forever and ever with no reprieve.

So...according to Baptist Church Doctrine...a person who never hurt anyone in their life...who always helped those in need, who loved their neighbor as their self...dies without being saved.......that person will suffer eternal damnation and will be burned by the fire  always...tormented forever...God will forget that person even exists there...

Susan Atkins..who carried out the horrific murders for Charles Manson confessed Jesus and was then saved.  She died in prison at 61.

Therefore:

Susan Atkins will spend Eternity in Heaven with God forever.

The person who spent their life helping others but never confessed Christ as Lord will spend eternity in hell.

And you want to talk seriousness?  Really?  smh

 

 

I mean you consider these doctrines as not serious, me too, now what? What is the point of this post? I wouldn't care if the post is not adressed as a message about seriousness to me, so please explain.

Edited by Illyrius
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Crazy Horse
4 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

God is THE ALL. If we do it then God does it too. 

God is in everything, and everything is in God.

All the good, the bad, and the ugly - that I believe is true.

But to suggest that God participates in mass murder, is like saying, that those pair of jeans that the killer was wearing, they participated in mass murder. You can suggest that in a court of law but you might get laughed at, and sent to the mental asylum!

You can only participate if you have made a conscious decision to take part. Sometimes there may be duress, blackmail or the threat of violence, but still, a choice must be made.

God gave us that choice, free will, so all this mess in the world, it is on us, and we can take our share of the blame and responcibility, and then move forwards in trying to find answers and solutions. Or, we can say that God was to blame for everything, and mentally sit back and do nothing?

God is there at every murder, that is true, just like a tree, the wind or a blade of grass. Just like a chair, a table a bed.....

This does not mean that God did it!

Being somewhere, and doing something, are two completely different things.

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Crazy Horse
4 hours ago, Guyver said:

But in one sense, belief is what we have.  We all believe, we just believe different things.  We can’t really prove that much when you get right down to it.

And this my friend is exactly what I have been trying to get across....amongst some other bits and bobs..

Some beliefs have a positive affect, a unifying and healing effect on society and even the whole panet. And some beliefs lead us to more selfish, damaging actions and results. This much we can prove - that beliefs affect actions and actions create out-comes.

But because this is such a fundamental idea, of separateness, or wholeness, the affect upon society is massive.

But I don't think that you even need a belief in God per se to accept this idea of oneness, just a belief in life, or love should bring us to the same place.

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Hammerclaw
5 hours ago, joc said:

You want to talk seriousness about Charles Manson and God?

Try this on for size.  The Baptist Church Doctrine says when you are saved...you are under an umbrella of grace...not you or anyone else can undo it.  You will go to heaven even if you committed horrific acts of violence before or afterwards because all of your sins are forgiven...past, present and future! 

The Baptist Church Doctrine also says if you die and you are not saved you will go to hell and burn forever and ever with no reprieve.

So...according to Baptist Church Doctrine...a person who never hurt anyone in their life...who always helped those in need, who loved their neighbor as their self...dies without being saved.......that person will suffer eternal damnation and will be burned by the fire  always...tormented forever...God will forget that person even exists there...

Susan Atkins..who carried out the horrific murders for Charles Manson confessed Jesus and was then saved.  She died in prison at 61.

Therefore:

Susan Atkins will spend Eternity in Heaven with God forever.

The person who spent their life helping others but never confessed Christ as Lord will spend eternity in hell.

And you want to talk seriousness?  Really?  smh

 

 

You really don't know jack about Baptists. They don't get a get out hell free card like certain other denominations. There is no Churchly hierarchy to intercede for you. No priest can declare you saved or grant you absolution. In the Baptist Faith you are one-on-one with the Big Guy. It is by the Grace of God alone, that you are saved. It is God that decides whether you have his Grace to begin with and whether or not you are deserving to keep it. You should confine your criticisms to the church you turned your back on.  https://www.baptistdistinctives.org/resources/articles/salvation-by-grace-through-faith-alone/                                  

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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

God is in everything, and everything is in God.

All the good, the bad, and the ugly - that I believe is true.

But to suggest that God participates in mass murder, is like saying, that those pair of jeans that the killer was wearing, they participated in mass murder. You can suggest that in a court of law but you might get laughed at, and sent to the mental asylum!

So you're saying God isn't conscious and he's an inanimate object?

 

Quote

You can only participate if you have made a conscious decision to take part. Sometimes there may be duress, blackmail or the threat of violence, but still, a choice must be made.

God gave us that choice, free will, so all this mess in the world, it is on us, and we can take our share of the blame and responcibility, and then move forwards in trying to find answers and solutions. Or, we can say that God was to blame for everything, and mentally sit back and do nothing?

God is there at every murder, that is true, just like a tree, the wind or a blade of grass. Just like a chair, a table a bed.....

This does not mean that God did it!

Being somewhere, and doing something, are two completely different things.

On one hand you treat God as an all powerful creator, yet here you're describing God as an unintelligent "entity" powerless to do anything.

God didn't create the universe, life or consciousness, God was just present when these events happened. 

Sounds like you've invented a god who only does what you agree with.

Edited by Rlyeh
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Crazy Horse
Just now, Rlyeh said:

So you're saying God isn't conscious and he's an inanimate object? 

 

No.

I am suggesting that God is the animating force within all atoms. Animal, mineral, and vegetable. THE ALL is in everything, and everything is in THE ALL.

But that it is humanity which is more self aware and therefore has more free will than a tree or a rock.

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Crazy Horse
6 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

 

 

On one hand you treat God as an all powerful creator, yet here you're describing God as an unintelligent "entity" powerless to do anything.

Sounds like you've invented a god who only does what you agree with.

An all powerful Creator yes, that gave us free will.

Sounds like you lack the understanding of this one simple idea.

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Rlyeh
Just now, Crazy Horse said:

An all powerful Creator yes, that gave us free will.

Sounds like you lack the understanding of this one simple idea.

Nope, God was just present when we evolved the ability to make choices.

Your argument is basically special pleading.

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MauriOra
40 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I don't think that you even need a belief in God per se to accept this idea of oneness, just a belief in life, or love should bring us to the same place.

:st.. Atamarie My Friend..

I understand the Message you are trying to convey here ..and it is Beautiful..:tsu:...

If we have Compassion towards our human family, and believe in a higher good, whether, its a god, or a tree, or a sunset, ..that feeling within ,that stirs us, towards, Peace, and healing, tolerance, understanding, respect ...etc etc ..An Intent towards a Better World of Unity... 

I Feel , that this is the Goal, or Purpose .... Unity ...

And Not Division ..

Because, We Are All One ...:yes:...!!!

Mo ..xx

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Rlyeh
7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

No.

I am suggesting that God is the animating force within all atoms. Animal, mineral, and vegetable. THE ALL is in everything, and everything is in THE ALL.

But that it is humanity which is more self aware and therefore has more free will than a tree or a rock.

Who conveniently only wants what you agree with. All your babble about God wanting love and peace can be countered using the exact same arguments you've used against mass murder.

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Crazy Horse
Just now, Rlyeh said:

Nope, God was just present when we evolved the ability to make choices.

Your argument is basically special pleading.

I have no idea what this means.

 

 

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Rlyeh
Just now, Crazy Horse said:

I have no idea what this means.

 

 

It means your assigning of actions to God is arbitrary, there is no rational reasoning only what you feel like.

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MauriOra
4 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

All your babble about God wanting love and peace 

Hey.. Howsit going ..

Would you like an environment of Love and Peace ..?

Everything else aside ..

Just your thoughts ..

Would you ..?

Mo..xx

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MauriOra
17 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

It means your assigning of actions to God is arbitrary, there is no rational reasoning only what you feel like.

Hey again ..

What does Rational Reasoning mean to you ?

Mo..xx

Edited by MauriOra
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Crazy Horse
1 minute ago, MauriOra said:

:st.. Atamarie My Friend..

I understand the Message you are trying to convey here ..and it is Beautiful..:tsu:...

If we have Compassion towards our human family, and believe in a higher good, whether, its a god, or a tree, or a sunset, ..that feeling within ,that stirs us, towards, Peace, and healing, tolerance, understanding, respect ...etc etc ..An Intent towards a Better World of Unity... 

I Feel , that this is the Goal, or Purpose .... Unity ...

And Not Division ..

Because, We Are All One ...:yes:...!!!

Mo ..xx

Atarmarie Mo..

And thank you for explaining it like this, it really isn't the hardest concept to wrap our heads around yet some are having a difficult time of it. Its almost like they dont want to see a better day for one an all! Im sure thats not true but....

And compassion is a key component, but the simple idea of Oneness will engender a lot more compassion and kindness than this long held view that we are all separate, in fact, we can see this world of seperation today!

Unity is the goal because it will quite naturally and quite peacefully change everything we experience today, to something quite amazing, only our imaginations will hold us back!

"We are One" 3 little words that could, would, change evrything!

Thanks Mo..xxx

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Crazy Horse
11 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

It means your assigning of actions to God is arbitrary, there is no rational reasoning only what you feel like.

I still have no idea of what you are talking about.

What I am saying is that God is in everything and everything is in God.

But because we have free will, the resoncibility to create a peaceful beautiful world is on us, not God.

God already gave us life and free will, now it is up to us to use it to help create a better world.

Its a very simple idea.

But any rational reasoning comes with the consequences of such a belief, peace for example, compared with what we have today, for example. And the reasoning comes from the idea that the Big Bang, the energy for that must have come from somewhere, much like life must have come from somewhere and consciousness too must have come from somewhere, I happen to call that place THE ALL. 

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Illyrius
9 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Atarmarie Mo..

And thank you for explaining it like this, it really isn't the hardest concept to wrap our heads around yet some are having a difficult time of it. Its almost like they dont want to see a better day for one an all! Im sure thats not true but....

And compassion is a key component, but the simple idea of Oneness will engender a lot more compassion and kindness than this long held view that we are all separate, in fact, we can see this world of seperation today!

Unity is the goal because it will quite naturally and quite peacefully change everything we experience today, to something quite amazing, only our imaginations will hold us back!

"We are One" 3 little words that could, would, change evrything!

Thanks Mo..xxx

I am really not so sure about this idea of Oneness, in terms of humanity. In terms of ultimate reality - yes.

Furthermore i agree that people are more alienated from each others in their own cultures and societies, family is breaking apart slowly but steadily. Divorces are constantly on the rise, society is more and more divided inside of itself.

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Rlyeh
10 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And thank you for explaining it like this, it really isn't the hardest concept to wrap our heads around yet some are having a difficult time of it. Its almost like they dont want to see a better day for one an all! Im sure thats not true but....

You're confusing understanding with agreement. As already pointed out, your concept is fallacious. It's not hard to understand you made it up. Good thing we have you to tell us what God does or doesn't want.

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MauriOra
7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Atarmarie Mo..

And thank you for explaining it like this, it really isn't the hardest concept to wrap our heads around yet some are having a difficult time of it. Its almost like they dont want to see a better day for one an all! Im sure thats not true but....

And compassion is a key component, but the simple idea of Oneness will engender a lot more compassion and kindness than this long held view that we are all separate, in fact, we can see this world of seperation today!

Unity is the goal because it will quite naturally and quite peacefully change everything we experience today, to something quite amazing, only our imaginations will hold us back!

"We are One" 3 little words that could, would, change evrything!

Thanks Mo..xxx

Aaawww.. You are Welcome CH.. Thankyou too ...!!!

Your so cool ..

:tsu:....

Yes, its an Easy Concept,..

Hard for some to get, due to their personal views or knowledge..

That is Okay ...

Just keep Doing the Due ...:yes:..

There are Many More Eyes on your Words, then just the Minds Participating ..

The Essence of Your Message is Beautiful ..

Keep up the Good Work ..:D..

Mo..xx

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Crazy Horse
31 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Who conveniently only wants what you agree with. All your babble about God wanting love and peace can be countered using the exact same arguments you've used against mass murder.

If that is your attitude about the things that I am talking about, then concider yourself on ignore. 

Have a great life.

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Illyrius
1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

If that is your attitude about the things that I am talking about, then concider yourself on ignore. 

Have a great life.

You see we are not Oneness?

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Rlyeh
1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

I still have no idea of what you are talking about.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/163/Special-Pleading

 

1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

What I am saying is that God is in everything and everything is in God.

But because we have free will, the resoncibility to create a peaceful beautiful world is on us, not God.

God already gave us life and free will, now it is up to us to use it to help create a better world.

How do you know God did it?

Lets use your same logic you countered mass murder with. God didn't create life or free will, God was simply present when it happened.

 

1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

Its a very simple idea.

But any rational reasoning comes with the consequences of such a belief, peace for example, compared with what we have today, for example. And the reasoning comes from the idea that the Big Bang, the energy for that must have come from somewhere, much like life must have come from somewhere and consciousness too must have come from somewhere, I happen to call that place THE ALL. 

For a simple mind.

Nothing you've presented has any substance. In fact your God is created from your own wishes.

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Illyrius
2 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

In fact your God is created from your own wishes.

In fact this is only a boring mantra of your cult. Human construct, idea, wishes... so boring and empty phrases.

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MauriOra
2 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

You see we are not Oneness?

Aha ..!!!

Yes .. For now.. But that is the goal ..

Oneness doesn't  just mean, all fluffy duffy love etc...

Its a Respect, a Tolerance of others beliefs etc, but the underlying goal, is building a solid foundation, towards unity.. Working together for Peace...

There will be For and Against,  however, if the Common Goal was toward a Structure of Acceptance and Understanding of our fellow man, that foundation , would be a great start towards the Eventual Oneness .. Who knows how long it will take, but its a start.. 

Mo..xx

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