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crookedspiral

Intelligent Design: Evolution 2.0

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Illyrius
Just now, cormac mac airt said:

No, what it suggests billions of years of trial and error in what does and doesn't work. That's not intelligent design by anyone's definition AFAIK. 

cormac

Trial and error leads to more sophistication. If there was't ever no trial and error that would mean that universe is predestined. Universe is not about predestination but about evolvement. When a being reaches a point of gaining self awareness it is capable to ask questions about evolution and free will and it's place in order of universe.

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Will Due
7 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

Please show me the "truth" you speak of, that might win me over.

 

First you need to deal with the truth of being in denial. Then we can proceed. 

 

 

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cormac mac airt
1 minute ago, Illyrius said:

Trial and error leads to more sophistication. If there was't ever no trial and error that would mean that universe is predestined. Universe is not about predestination but about evolvement. When a being reaches a point of gaining self awareness it is capable to ask questions about evolution and free will and it's place in order of universe.

Trial and error is not evidence of intelligent design otherwise it wouldn't have taken billions of years, so any argument for the latter can be summarily dismissed due to lack of evidence. 

cormac

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Illyrius
Just now, cormac mac airt said:

Trial and error is not evidence of intelligent design otherwise it wouldn't have taken billions of years, so any argument for the latter can be summarily dismissed due to lack of evidence. 

cormac

Trial and error is simply an evidence of free will inside of infinetely complex and intelligent universe.

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khol
15 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

I've read it. Darwin makes a point of "natural selection". Fine, so it is a sort of thing that shapes things to evolve, but that is not the main point. The main point is the question, what is the basic source of order and intelligence no matter in which way this order and intelligence manifests itself.

There is no intelligence needed. Its where the NATURAL from natural selection is derived from. This process begins at the microbial level billions of years ago. 

Edited by khol
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cormac mac airt
1 minute ago, Illyrius said:

Trial and error is simply an evidence of free will inside of infinetely complex and intelligent universe.

Trial and error has no will, meaning that there is no evidence of inherent thought behind it, it simply is. 

cormac

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Illyrius
4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Trial and error has no will, meaning that there is no evidence of inherent thought behind it, it simply is. 

cormac

Trial and error has no will but a being which recongnizes his trials and errors has a  WILL. A free will.

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Hammerclaw

You can evoke God to explain everything, from evolution to an apparently completely natural Universe. It really doesn't explain anything, it just kicks the can further down the road.

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Illyrius
2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You can evoke God to explain everything, from evolution to an apparently completely natural Universe. It really doesn't explain anything, it just kicks the can further down the road.

It cant explain everything. What would that mean? To become all-knowing? No way - we are at a point of evolution of consciusness where we only know what we know and interpret facts the way we like.

Edited by Illyrius
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cormac mac airt
5 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

Trial and error has no will but a being which recongnizes his trials and errors has a  WILL. A free will.

And yet you've not show any evidence beyond your personal opinion that such a being exists. Quite a predicament you're in as your personal opinion doesn't make it a fact.

cormac

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Liquid Gardens
34 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Non-random? That's correct because a designer designed it that way.

Maybe.  When you let go of a rock, it's not random that it falls towards the earth is it?  Does gravity then appear to be 'designed' to you?  I don't see any design there, it's just a force.  If so, there's one example, amongst a zillion others, of something non-random that doesn't appear to require a designer.

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Aquila King

If you think of consciousness as being a force of nature, then we can start to see that this whole 'Intelligent Design vs. Naturalism' debate to be utterly useless.

Both could in some sense be one and the same.

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Aquila King

why-not-both-voao0y.jpg

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Scudbuster
30 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

First you need to deal with the truth of being in denial. Then we can proceed. 

 

 

Hahaha........now, I'm not in denial about anything, just show me a shred of proof to back your claims. 

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Will Due
29 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Maybe.  When you let go of a rock, it's not random that it falls towards the earth is it?  Does gravity then appear to be 'designed' to you?  I don't see any design there, it's just a force.  If so, there's one example, amongst a zillion others, of something non-random that doesn't appear to require a designer.

 

Wow.

If gravity wasn't designed to do what it does, then if you dropped a rock it might not drop at all.

Perhaps the most important thing in the design of how the universe evolved is the design of gravity.

Next to how man is designed to see that God is the Master Architect that is.

 

 

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Hammerclaw
48 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

It cant explain everything. What would that mean? To become all-knowing? No way - we are at a point of evolution of consciusness where we only know what we know and interpret facts the way we like.

That's your tale--I sit on mine.

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Will Due
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

That's your tale--I sit on mine.

 

:rofl:

 

 

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Liquid Gardens
14 minutes ago, Will Due said:

If gravity wasn't designed to do what it does, then if you dropped a rock it might not drop at all.

Perhaps the most important thing in the design of how the universe evolved is the design of gravity.

Why do you think gravity is 'designed', what quality does it have that makes you think it is?  Is there anything in your opinion that doesn't appear to be designed?

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Why do you think gravity is 'designed', what quality does it have that makes you think it is?  Is there anything in your opinion that doesn't appear to be designed?

 

Everything is designed, yes. Everything. Most notably, the possesion of free will in the human being. This was designed to allow us to choose to cooperate with the design of life so that we can live in God's universe, now and forever if we want to.

But the choice to live is conditional. We are not designed to live any way we want. Life is designed a certain way, according to the laws and rules God designed.

That's why gravity works the way it does and life evolves the way it does.

Nothing is random except our choices.

 

 

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Liquid Gardens
13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Everything is designed, yes. Everything.

Okay, thanks for the clarification, you've drifted very far from what Intelligent Design argues, namely that life, in its complexity, appears to be designed.  You can believe that something like gravity is designed, but unfortunately you aren't able to appeal to the same type of 'evidence' that ID people do so I'll just treat this as a statement of your faith, which requires no evidence.

Edited by Liquid Gardens
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Aquila King
14 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Everything is designed, yes. Everything.

I can think of several types of parasitic worms that make one ask why they were made...

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Will Due
27 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I can think of several types of parasitic worms that make one ask why they were made...

 

Yeah but human beings are parasites too. We eat off the world, so one worm can support another.

 

 

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Will Due
34 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Okay, thanks for the clarification, you've drifted very far from what Intelligent Design argues, namely that life, in its complexity, appears to be designed.  You can believe that something like gravity is designed, but unfortunately you aren't able to appeal to the same type of 'evidence' that ID people do so I'll just treat this as a statement of your faith, which requires no evidence.

 

This back and forth that there is no evidence, I get it.

But can you appreciate the fact that the world, life as it is manifest, the stars planets and moons, atoms and ultimatons (ha) that taken all together IS the evidence?

Faith is NOT how I evaluate this evidence. I do it only based on, what to me, is common sense. That's it.

 

 

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Liquid Gardens
7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But can you appreciate the fact that the world, life as it is manifest, the stars planets and moons, atoms and ultimatons (ha) that taken all together IS the evidence?

As I thought we already discussed, evidence of what?  If you're going to say God then don't stop there, let it all in; it's also evidence of a whole race of creator gods too, and super-powered aliens, the Matrix, a perpetual dream-state, Sauron using the One Ring, and the supreme creator magical leprechaun.  In addition, it's also evidence for a purely physical universe unfolding according to non-sentient natural laws.  What you are claiming is evidence for God is evidence for a million possibilities that don't involve your god at all.  Given how ambiguous your evidence is, I wouldn't really be touting it as evidence, unless you also have evidence that it supports your God more than these other possibilities.

To get more in line with the OP, can you appreciate the fact that a hand is a lot different from gravity as far as apparent design?

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jmccr8
3 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Then who designed the conditions that are favorable for the making of a snowflake?

For people who allege that those who believe God designed and created everything in the material universe are simpleton believers in fairy tales, unicorns and other derogatory things, they don't seem to realize that they are just simply unable to control themselves from doing it for a very obvious reason.

They're the ones who are gullible, and it bugs them that deep inside, they know it.

So they deflect the truth of what they're doing and try and try to project their unsatisfying situation onto those who are aware of these truths.

It isn't working, but it is working to bolster the truth that God is supreme and he designed life to evolve in a controlled way.

Otherwise, some people may have grown hands where their lips are.

 

 

Will

If you are going to insult me at least don't fluff it up with a bunch of bs and speak clearly your point. You are imposing your view of what I say so my response is NO.

jmccr8

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