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Josip191

The meaning of crows throughout history

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Josip191

Hello friends,

"In the Bible, crows and their close cousins, ravens, were called “unclean” and with this unshakable spiritual grey cloud, these bullied birds have subsequently been associated with the occult, witchcraft, and death. Neither does Islam offer these homeless birds a safe perch to land, as it holds them as one of the five animals we are “allowed” to destroy."

crows-and-their-close-cousins.jpg

Here is an article explaining the meanings of crows and ravens and their link to humans.

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jaylemurph

...are you going to follow up with any conversation-starters or prompts, or are we just supposed to tell you how brilliant your analysis is?

--Jaylemurph 

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Piney
1 hour ago, Josip191 said:

"In the Bible, crows and their close cousins, ravens, were called “unclean”

Only to eat, because they ate carrion. 

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Tatetopa

In my ancestral religion,  ravens were associated with Odin.  Huginn and Muninn, Thought and Memory flew the world each day and came back to Odin to tell him what they had seen. Northlanders knew corvids, corbies , were smart and social.

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Hammerclaw
Why Crow Hates Hawk
 
Most of us have been witness to Crows harassing and attacking the Hawk.  Have you ever wondered why? This story as told by Bessie Bird was probably an attempt by early Cherokee to explain it.
 
Long ago when the Creator was making all the creatures which live on the Turtle island, he gave each one a special gift that set them apart from the other. The Skunk, he gave a smell, Awi, the Deer he gave antlers, all the birds , insects and furry creatures each had their own gift, be it stripes, stings, bites or colors.
 
When almost all the gifts were given, the Creator saw he still had a set of beautiful red tail feathers to give to one of his creations. He sent out word of a council and asked all the birds of the air to come and sit before him so he could decide who was worthy of this great gift..
 
When all the birds sat before him, he asked who among them was worthy of these beautiful red tail feathers. Crow immediately spoke up, "I am worthy, I am great, black, smart, look how beautiful I am," he said.
 
The Creator waited, no one else spoke. Crow was arrogant, and unliked by all other birds because he all the land he flew over , he thought was his own. No other bird made this claim and shared equally amongst others.
 
Creator saw his Great Hawk, Towodi, sitting in council.
 
"Towodi", said the Creator,"I give you these tail feathers because you are humble, wise and strong.You do not think you are more attractive or smarter than others, therefore you deserve this gift"
 
Crow was angry and spoke" The feathers are mine and I will teach my children and their children to take what is ours if it takes forever". To this day, his ancestors still try to take the red tail feathers. http://echotacherokeetribe.homestead.com/Cherokee_Legends.html
Edited by Hammerclaw
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Mr Walker

In Europe, without other larger birds of prey or raptors, and where most of our legends originated, ravens were harbingers of death This was mainly because on  battlefields  and after diseases the y descended and ate the dead. There are eagles in Europe as there are in Australia but i suspect that, like in Australia, they are rare, and it is the ravens or crows which descend en masse  where there are dead people or animals. Ravens also tended to eat grain and corn crops and impact on  people's survival.  

They also ate  lambs  which had died, often beginning with the eyes and other soft spots on a body.

   In Africa and the Americas, buzzards and other larger birds  did this sort of work 

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jaylemurph
11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In Europe, without other larger birds of prey or raptors, and where most of our legends originated, ravens were harbingers of death This was mainly because on  battlefields  and after diseases the y descended and ate the dead. There are eagles in Europe as there are in Australia but i suspect that, like in Australia, they are rare, and it is the ravens or crows which descend en masse  where there are dead people or animals. Ravens also tended to eat grain and corn crops and impact on  people's survival.  

They also ate  lambs  which had died, often beginning with the eyes and other soft spots on a body.

   In Africa and the Americas, buzzards and other larger birds  did this sort of work 

There are several species of vulture in Europe: the bearded vulture, the Egyptian vulture, the cinereous vulture, the griffin vulture. And that's just vultures: that doesn't even include eagles, hawks and other large raptors.

--Jaylemurph

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Essan

Crows and ravens are very intelligent birds (clever than most humans, probably :P ) and much regarded in British mythology

Bran (crow/raven) was the last great king of Britain.   It was also the name of the favoured hunting dog of the Irish/Scottish  hero Fionn mac Cumhaill

(and yes, I think George RR Martin knew this :D )

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Tatetopa

Here in the Northwest, Raven shares a little bit in common with Coyote, a wise trickster; sometimes helpful, sometimes detrimental.

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Piney
6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Here in the Northwest, Raven shares a little bit in common with Coyote, a wise trickster; sometimes helpful, sometimes detrimental.

Wiikimokiis (Rabbit) has that job with my people.

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Jarocal
31 minutes ago, Piney said:

Wiikimokiis (Rabbit) has that job with my people.

Wiikimokiis has the venerated position of "main course" for dinner around here. That is their reward for mowing my yard so I don't have to.

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Piney
1 minute ago, Jarocal said:

Wiikimokiis has the venerated position of "main course" for dinner around here. That is their reward for mowing my yard so I don't have to.

We don't eat them. We must of lived in the desert at one time because we were afraid of the norovirus the desert rabbits carry.

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Jarocal
8 minutes ago, Piney said:

We don't eat them. We must of lived in the desert at one time because we were afraid of the norovirus the desert rabbits carry.

"Cheaper than chicken", unless of course you buy them already butchered.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

As I sit here, there’s the biggest crow Ive seen in ages eyeballing me from my fence.

I feel compelled to say something nice about them ... they’re clever wee beasties, they use tools and have worked out how to eat the non-toxic part of cane toads

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Ohh now this is just creepy. ... he’s flown off now.

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jaylemurph
9 hours ago, Piney said:

We don't eat them. We must of lived in the desert at one time because we were afraid of the norovirus the desert rabbits carry.

Guy the Basset is terrified of rabbits for some reason. Once, when he was on a leash, he almost dislocated my arm when he saw one I didn't and began to run away at top speed.

--Jaylemurph

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Essan
1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

Guy the Basset is terrified of rabbits for some reason. Once, when he was on a leash, he almost dislocated my arm when he saw one I didn't and began to run away at top speed.

--Jaylemurph

Be afraid, be very afraid ....
 

 

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Mr Walker
On 14/02/2018 at 6:43 AM, jaylemurph said:

There are several species of vulture in Europe: the bearded vulture, the Egyptian vulture, the cinereous vulture, the griffin vulture. And that's just vultures: that doesn't even include eagles, hawks and other large raptors.

--Jaylemurph

Yea I should have known this. The funny thing is that you never hear about them in literature, apart from falcons used in hunting, whereas you hear all about the american and African variants. In European literature its  always the crows and ravens feasting on the battle fields. As i said  its probably the rarity of the larger birds which in Europe might have been driven close to extinction by habitat removal and killing them as predators on farm animals  

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Jarocal
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Guy the Basset is terrified of rabbits for some reason. Once, when he was on a leash, he almost dislocated my arm when he saw one I didn't and began to run away at top speed.

--Jaylemurph

Really? Petey the Basset will try and dislocate your arm if he sees a rabbit only he is trying to chase it. 

My buddy raises beagles for field trials and whenever I want to hear a melodic symphony of hounds I can just drop a rabbit in his back yard. He doesn't always appreciate my timing (I mean isn't everyone already awake at 6am on a Sunday).:D

Edit to amend: In his younger days Petey was that energetic. Older and wiser now he generally just bawls a couple times and returns to chewing on whatever hambone or rawhide had occupied his attention prior to noticing the rabbit.

Edited by Jarocal
I sold Vyse the red paint
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jaylemurph
16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Yea I should have known this. The funny thing is that you never hear about them in literature, apart from falcons used in hunting, whereas you hear all about the american and African variants. In European literature its  always the crows and ravens feasting on the battle fields. As i said  its probably the rarity of the larger birds which in Europe might have been driven close to extinction by habitat removal and killing them as predators on farm animals  

You know, I agree with you. Your post made me go back and think through Classical and Medieval sources -- particularly from southern Europe, and I can' think of any mention of vultures (although a few eagle references come to mond). I could think of more hoopoo references, even though that's just pretty much my excuse to use the word  hoopoo in a post. Twice! 

6 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

Really? Petey the Basset will try and dislocate your arm if he sees a rabbit only he is trying to chase it. 

My buddy raises beagles for field trials and whenever I want to hear a melodic symphony of hounds I can just drop a rabbit in his back yard. He doesn't always appreciate my timing (I mean isn't everyone already awake at 6am on a Sunday).:D

Edit to amend: In his younger days Petey was that energetic. Older and wiser now he generally just bawls a couple times and returns to chewing on whatever hambone or rawhide had occupied his attention prior to noticing the rabbit.

Guy the Basset is pretty much afraid of everything: rabbits, cats, squirrels, deer, horses, woodchucks, small dogs, and (on hilarious occassions) his own farts. I think it might be from his city upbringing.

--Jaylemurph

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Jarocal
25 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

 

Guy the Basset is pretty much afraid of everything: rabbits, cats, squirrels, deer, horses, woodchucks, small dogs, and (on hilarious occassions) his own farts. I think it might be from his city upbringing.

--Jaylemurph

Basset farts can be evil as feline demonic entities. If your  sitting in a chair and Petey wanders over to lay across your feet you may as well make him go outside immediately. If not you will regret procrastination on your part within 5 minutes of him laying there. I swear he does it to make everyone think it was you...:angry:

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Tatetopa
On 2/14/2018 at 2:10 AM, Piney said:

Wiikimokiis (Rabbit) has that job with my people.

 I was thinking there isn't much in European tradition about rabbits but the Chinese venerate it as one of their 12 zodiac animals.  

Then I remembered from childhood the stories of Brer Rabbit. My grandmother used to give me Brer Rabbit molasses syrup on bread if I was good. That brand has been around for 100 years in the south. Did your neighbors in the Southeast have the same traditions about rabbits that got passed on to slaves and others?  The whole sanitized Uncle Remus stories taken by Disney?  Would that be Muskegeons or Cherokees?  

Which led of course to our more modern Bugs Bunny the genius of Warner Brothers; the trickster that always got the best of Elmer Fudd.  For all of those Saturday mornings watching cartoons as a kid, let me express a little delayed gratitude.  Thanks, Doc.

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Piney
2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

 I was thinking there isn't much in European tradition about rabbits but the Chinese venerate it as one of their 12 zodiac animals.  

Then I remembered from childhood the stories of Brer Rabbit. My grandmother used to give me Brer Rabbit molasses syrup on bread if I was good. That brand has been around for 100 years in the south. Did your neighbors in the Southeast have the same traditions about rabbits that got passed on to slaves and others?  The whole sanitized Uncle Remus stories taken by Disney?  Would that be Muskegeons or Cherokees?  

Which led of course to our more modern Bugs Bunny the genius of Warner Brothers; the trickster that always got the best of Elmer Fudd.  For all of those Saturday mornings watching cartoons as a kid, let me express a little delayed gratitude.  Thanks, Doc.

Brer Rabbit was the very same entity. Coastal Algonquians heavily mixed with African slaves and the Brother Rabbit stories were combined with the Anansi, the spider trickster stories.

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Black Monk

There are always at least six ravens (with clipped wings) kept at the Tower of London because, according to legend, "if the Tower of London ravens are lost or fly away, the Crown will fall and Britain with it".

 

Quote

One legend attributes the start of the tradition of keeping ravens with clipped wings in the Tower of London to Charles II and to his royal astronomer John Flamsteed, although there are versions of the legend that differ in their details.[11] According to one legend, John Flamsteed complained to Charles II that wild ravens were flying past his telescope and making it harder for him to observe the sky from his observatory in the White Tower. Flamsteed requested that the birds be removed, but Charles II refused to comply with this request.[9][11]

Another variation of this legend says that it was Charles II himself who disliked the wild ravens' droppings falling onto the telescope. The conversation with his astronomer that supposedly followed decided the fate not only of the ravens, but also of Greenwich, where the Greenwich Observatory was commissioned by the King in 1675. In this version of the legend the King complained:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravens_of_the_Tower_of_London

 

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DingoLingo

Crows are the messengers of the gods 

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