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and then

Macron's plans to reform Islam in France

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and then

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11893/france-islam-reform

I'm a bit surprised by this move, actually.  I wish him the best of luck.  The plan calls for regulating the training of Imams, limiting the financial support from outside countries and creating a position of "Grand Imam of France" to represent all French Muslims.  The move seems to be in response to the violence of the recent past.  

Does France, or any free society, have the right to dictate the broad outlines of how a faith community is integrated into the life of the nation? 

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acute
4 minutes ago, and then said:

Does France, or any free society, have the right to dictate the broad outlines of how a faith community is integrated into the life of the nation? 

The Muslims barely integrate. That's the problem!  France is a secular country, and they want to keep it that way.

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hetrodoxly

You can only train an Imam with what's in the Quran and hadith, so no change then.

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eight bits

and then

Quote

Does France, or any free society, have the right to dictate the broad outlines of how a faith community is integrated into the life of the nation?

Most people would place France on the short list of the very freest nations of the world. So, we need some perspective here.

The French constitutional guarantees regarding religion are a secular society with individual freedom of conscience. There is no American-style "free expression" guarantee. So, when Macron says (as quoted in the interview)

"My goal is to rediscover what lies at the heart of secularism—the possibility of being able to believe as well as not to believe—in order to preserve national cohesion and the possibility of having free religious conscience."

That's pure French constitutional principle. Now, like all constitutional matters everywhere that enjoys the rule of law, the devil will be in the details. Those aren't in place, and Macron allows himself six months, during which time he says he will be busily consulting with stake holders. But does the French government have the underlying authority within the French constitutional system? Yes, he thinks so, and he may well be right about that.

The source for the portion of the article that is specifically from Macron is here, for those who read French:

http://www.lejdd.fr/politique/macron-veut-poser-les-jalons-de-toute-lorganisation-de-lislam-de-france-3570797

-

Edited by eight bits
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ZeroTheHero

It seems to me that France was trying to do something good, by bringing in Syrian Refugees, that were of Islamic Faith. I would say they should have the right to do whatever is necessary to secure the country for it's citizens. Especially considering the attitude they, and all nations that have taken in Refugees have been met with.

 

 

 

Edited by ZeroTheHero
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and then
1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

You can only train an Imam with what's in the Quran and hadith, so no change then.

I don't think the idea is to dictate religious doctrine to them but rather to insist on respect for the secular nature of the French government.  Regardless the interpretation of the Qu'ran, anyone preaching hate or violence would be removed from the country.  Rightly so, IMO.

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hetrodoxly
49 minutes ago, and then said:

I don't think the idea is to dictate religious doctrine to them but rather to insist on respect for the secular nature of the French government.  Regardless the interpretation of the Qu'ran, anyone preaching hate or violence would be removed from the country.  Rightly so, IMO.

Imam's are self appointed religious 'leaders' who will not go against the Quran or hadith which has no respect for "the secular nature of the French" or any other nation.

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1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

Imam's are self appointed religious 'leaders' who will not go against the Quran or hadith which has no respect for "the secular nature of the French" or any other nation.

I suspect you are correct but Macron seems to be attempting to rein in the violent influence of those who desire for France to be an Islamic government.  We'll see how much he gets accomplished...

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aztek

why what is the problem? according to many European posters here there are no problems with Islam and its followers in France or  Europe in general.   must be fake news lying.

Edited by aztek
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and then
4 hours ago, aztek said:

why what is the problem? according to many European posters here there are no problems with Islam and its followers in France or  Europe in general.   must be fake news lying.

I get your point but Macron doesn't strike me as a Conservative, Right-leaning firebrand ;)  Maybe there are a few in France that are demanding some accountability and change where Islam is concerned?

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Brother_Spirit
15 hours ago, and then said:

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11893/france-islam-reform

I'm a bit surprised by this move, actually.  I wish him the best of luck.  The plan calls for regulating the training of Imams, limiting the financial support from outside countries and creating a position of "Grand Imam of France" to represent all French Muslims.  The move seems to be in response to the violence of the recent past.  

Does France, or any free society, have the right to dictate the broad outlines of how a faith community is integrated into the life of the nation? 

This makes me uncomfortable. It's not the role of a head of state to 'reform' a particular religion. Religion and the state must be kept separate entities. The French revolution, especially, made secularism the core of that western society. Macron is walking a thin line.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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aztek
10 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

This makes me uncomfortable. It's not the role of a head of state to 'reform' a particular religion.

it is when religion affects matters of the state the way it does in France.

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LV-426
2 hours ago, aztek said:

it is when religion affects matters of the state the way it does in France.

This is the crux of it.

No religious laws - of any religion - should superceed the laws of a nation, whether directly or under the regularly abused contemporary guise of "religious tolerance."

If people want to live by rules created a couple of millenia ago, there are nations out their that would be happy to adopt them.

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Dark_Grey
22 hours ago, aztek said:

why what is the problem? according to many European posters here there are no problems with Islam and its followers in France or  Europe in general.   must be fake news lying.

lol After reading the first post I could tell this thread would be an echo chamber. There are two kinds of people: those that see the world for what it is and those that see what they want it to be.

At least the level of denial over migrant crimes has dropped significantly. There was a huge backlash when we first started reporting on it here.

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Dark_Grey
On 2/13/2018 at 6:59 AM, and then said:

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11893/france-islam-reform

I'm a bit surprised by this move, actually.  I wish him the best of luck.  The plan calls for regulating the training of Imams, limiting the financial support from outside countries and creating a position of "Grand Imam of France" to represent all French Muslims.  The move seems to be in response to the violence of the recent past.  

Does France, or any free society, have the right to dictate the broad outlines of how a faith community is integrated into the life of the nation? 

They have to do something given the extremism that's been allowed to fester. All the weapons caches authorities have found along with extremist literature and such says that Imams in France are not feeling threatened to play by the rules. I've said it before but Islam only respects authority and strength. Trying to appease them with a red carpet always ends in your country being steamrolled with "cultural enrichment".

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and then
On 2/14/2018 at 1:21 PM, Dark_Grey said:

They have to do something given the extremism that's been allowed to fester. All the weapons caches authorities have found along with extremist literature and such says that Imams in France are not feeling threatened to play by the rules. I've said it before but Islam only respects authority and strength. Trying to appease them with a red carpet always ends in your country being steamrolled with "cultural enrichment".

That's my take on it as well.  That is why it surprises me to an extent.  Macron is a Left-leaning Progressive style politician and for him to stand up where others haven't tells me that the government there is beginning to take stock of a bad situation that they realize is becoming worse.

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Sir Smoke aLot

It's easy. Learn from Birmingham example of 'imam', the 'Captain Hook' Abu Hamza.

If authorities let criminals to act as 'imams' than you will have problems. Even more problems if the government finance such people. It's no wonder that thousands have gone to fight abroad, after being exposed to such broken terrorist ideologies as mentioned example from Birmingham did.

 

[edit] to add... It seems that France is taking proper measures. And yeah, if those measures are done with care and with respect towards Muslims with Muslims being in leading role in making those changes than of course, every nation has the right to do good changes i just hope things wont escalate because, since Charlie Hebdo, France has really lost a lot of their prestige BMO.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
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Sir Smoke aLot
On 2/13/2018 at 4:34 PM, ZeroTheHero said:

It seems to me that France was trying to do something good, by bringing in Syrian Refugees, that were of Islamic Faith. I would say they should have the right to do whatever is necessary to secure the country for it's citizens.

More than half of France's population are immigrants from time of colonial 'games'. Syrian or any other refugees which came in France today are mere rain drop in the ocean of mixed population.

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Podo

Religious ideals should never be relevant when in conflict with a nation's laws, ever. For a progressive nation like France to attempt to create a religious reform is very suspect to me. What business does a government have in regulating a religion? None, in my opinion. Religion and government are incompatible, like oil and water, and should be therefore kept far apart from each other. Religion is, and should always be, subordinate to secular law.

That being said, I hope that it works. Whatever keeps religious types calm and not interfering with society is a net-positive, in my opinion.

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Black Red Devil
On 2/16/2018 at 10:23 AM, and then said:

That's my take on it as well.  That is why it surprises me to an extent.  Macron is a Left-leaning Progressive style politician and for him to stand up where others haven't tells me that the government there is beginning to take stock of a bad situation that they realize is becoming worse.

This belief that left/progressives accept hate speech by Islamic clerics is real fake news you find on Fox News and Breitbart.  Accepting multicultarism and immigration doesn't mean accepting everything a new culture brings.  There are Laws and everyone abides by them, no matter what your religion says.  Macron is enforcing Law equally, it's up to the Imam's to change their methods or else suffer the consequences.  His main contender, Marine Le Pen (far Right wing), in their recent elections gained a lot of seats in Parliament thanks to her anti-immigration, anri-Islamic, anti-EU rhetoric, also due to the number of terrorist attacks in France in recent times.  About 8% of France's population is Muslim, mainly from its former colonies (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia the main ones). Further attacks would be political suicide if he showed he did nothing to put a stop to Radicalism.

Where the left/progressives have gone wrong in the past are in places like Sweden and Germany under Merkel by allowing unregulated and unvetted immigration.  Also, the EU has to review the Schengen Treaty which makes it too difficult for Authorities to know where refugees are once they get into the EU.

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Captain Risky
On 2/14/2018 at 11:09 AM, and then said:

I get your point but Macron doesn't strike me as a Conservative, Right-leaning firebrand ;)  Maybe there are a few in France that are demanding some accountability and change where Islam is concerned?

i think the French definition of conservative differs greatly from any other western country. their notion of a conservative is our centre-leftist.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
On 13/02/2018 at 11:59 PM, and then said:

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11893/france-islam-reform

I'm a bit surprised by this move, actually.  I wish him the best of luck.  The plan calls for regulating the training of Imams, limiting the financial support from outside countries and creating a position of "Grand Imam of France" to represent all French Muslims.  The move seems to be in response to the violence of the recent past.  

Does France, or any free society, have the right to dictate the broad outlines of how a faith community is integrated into the life of the nation? 

I think the government has the right to tell any group within the society how it can behave as a public entity. Now, an individual OTOH ... maybe not. But a Group? Yes. The government exists to regulate things. If the people of France think the Islamic culture of France needs regulation, so steps in the government. How do they voice this? Election time. If Macaroon wins, the people support his stance, if he loses they don’t. 

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. The foundation stones of the French Republic. 

You are free to do what you want, as long as it doesn’t harm others.

you are equal in the eyes of the law. 

You are all French, and should treat each other as family.

now ... if a community or religion doesn’t endorse those ideals, or actively preaches against them ... the government really should step in.

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stevewinn

Since Macrons approval rating dropped below 50%, to around 43% today, he's came out fighting. talking tough, reforming Islam at home and in the next breath threatening to bomb Syria. (if chemical weapons are used on civilians) - nothing will come of either of these statements. he's playing to the gallery.

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and then
2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Since Macrons approval rating dropped below 50%, to around 43% today, he's came out fighting. talking tough, reforming Islam at home and in the next breath threatening to bomb Syria. (if chemical weapons are used on civilians) - nothing will come of either of these statements. he's playing to the gallery.

That would explain his sudden toughness.  

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acute
On 16/02/2018 at 0:06 PM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It's easy. Learn from Birmingham example of 'imam', the 'Captain Hook' Abu Hamza.

If authorities let criminals to act as 'imams' than you will have problems. Even more problems if the government finance such people. It's no wonder that thousands have gone to fight abroad, after being exposed to such broken terrorist ideologies as mentioned example from Birmingham did.

Birmingham?!?

Abu Hamza was the Imam at Finsbury Park Mosque in London.  I doubt he's ever been here!

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