We are Perfect Beings?

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

The Truth you speak of Crazy Horse, is upon us like a Tsunami. 

 

 

I want to add something else that is a real tsunami, of conscious awareness at least.

This consciousness growth is exponential, its not a long hard slog from 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 all the way up to infinity, and beyond...

The way it works is like this; 1-2-4-8-16-32-64...... all the way up to infinity, and beyond, again..

So, lets say you have a level 32 understand, or wisdom - you give that away, so your base was already 32 but now because you gave away all your "power" you can expect the same in return, another down load of consciousness matching that what you just gave away. So you end up with a level 64 awareness, and then you give that away and end up with a level 128.

Same with money, same with love, relationships, hope, faith, charity......

[Crazy Horse]

18 hours ago, Wes83 said:

Imconvinced answered closely to how I would have but I would go a little further and add that all crimes are committed out of some form of love. 

We are all born with... or adopt?? different desires or preferences and out of love for the self we seek to scratch these itches... Some of us have adopted itches of perversion by societal standards.  I imagine every crime you can imagine I can find the root cause to be love.

Now. You are going to say that those loves are not true loves, but some perversion, right? I disagree. Love is love and as Unconvinced says, package deal.

Communal unconditional love turns savage when a members turns against or questions the group. That can be horrific, and many times these well meaning people are cults of light.

Humans, like love are a package deal. We are competition. We are love, and we are war.  Compassion, and selfishness.

I think we need a common goal, or enemy- to semi quote an ex president, that would bring the nations together more than anything.

This idea that we commit crimes because of some kind of self love, only goes to demonstrate how important this idea of Oneness actually is, ie, if you or I, if we both believed in this idea of Oneness, then neither of us would commit a crime against the other.

Love is love, correct, love is not jealousy, hate, spitefulness etc, check out a dictionary if you are confused about the difference. So the reason why a community based on unconditional love might go bad, is not down to love, love isn't the cause of anything bad, the more likely caused would be jealousy or spitefulness etc. A lack of love!

And the fundimental  reason humans have engaged in so much war, is because of this idea of separateness. We believe those people to be separate from us, so we allow ourselves to kill their women and children - genocide couldn't happen with this idea of non-separation and unconditional love.

And to say that we need a common enemy to unite us is utterly preposterous. To have an enemy means division not unity.

And division means suffering.

[Crazy Horse]

18 hours ago, and then said:

Absolutely.  He is a separate, distinct individual consciousness that created all things.  I am one of those creations and He knew me before I was in my mother's womb.  I truly believe that our time here in this physical world is designed for us to learn lessons that will help us move on to another stage of awareness and all the events we go through are part of that education.  We must choose whether to have faith only in ourselves or in a God that we cannot see or touch.  I can't begin to understand why this is necessary but the Bible is quite clear about this point... "without faith, it is impossible to please God"  Were He not an individual, the idea of pleasing Him would be moot. 

Thanks and then for the considered answer..

But I do have one more question. Can you see how this idea, this cosmology of a separate Divine Being, how this cosmology has led us to a theology of seperateness? And that over the millennium, this theology has created a sociology, a human psyche of separation, which has led ultimately to a pathology of separation? 

In other words, we believe ourselves to be something different, something other, and because of this one simple idea, we have had millennia of wars and chaos as everybody strives for their individual self instead of the Collective Whole!

Can you see how a simple change of belief, from separate, to non-separate, would in fact mean peace on Earth? 

And lets be honest, if God, or, THE ALL, THE ABSOLUTE, if God is everything, then we cannot possible be separate anyway.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

20 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Thanks Sir Smoke aLot

I don't think we lost our piece of divinity, I believe that we are held within the Mind of God, God being THE ALL, and there being nothing outside of THAT. So I would use the word 'Forgot', we forgot our divinity due to this world we are born into, due to the widely held beliefs, if those belief were different, say, that everyone held that the whole of creation were One and the Same THING, then this problem of forgetting would no longer be a problem!

And I have to disagree with this idea that we cant make a difference. Everything action has a reaction, every cause has its effect, nothing comes from nothing, everything counts.. Although its true that if there were more good folks, all pulling in the same direction, then yes, we could make a huge difference relatively quickly..

And yes, too many folk in the world today are oppossed to this idea of humanity as perfect beings, but that is a cultural matter, see above, which could quite easily be turned around.

 

I like the way you think really and some time ago i would accept every word you say but, for the reasons i mentioned in my earlier reply, our opinion of the subject is different. Also, there is one 'technical' issue, bmo, with such proposals.

20 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

But this idea of having to be deserving of God.... Sorry, but we are a part of God, for now and forever - its not a question of deserving, we just ARE!! 

As for this part i do accept concept of Heaven and Hell and that belief implies that we actually have to deserve to be part of Heaven which can be related to as to be part of God.

Hence, we have to deserve to be part of God in Heaven because perfect being, which God is, surely would not be interested in distorting His perfection. It would be making of imbalance in His perfection, by accepting, for example, mass murderers or alike. Liars and hypocrites who harm many people with their works.

After all, it's well explained in every Abramic religion, for example in those lines as : '' I know thy works '' etc. Lines such as that one surely imply that there are entities which work against humanity.

So that's where our opinion differ, yes, God gave us life from part of Him self but also, He gave us free will and where will our free will lead us is up to us and we will be judged by what we do. 

[GlitterRose]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:07 AM, and then said:

Beginning with the premise that I believe the Bible, I think that we are created beings with a spark of the Divine that makes us higher than the animals and even the angels.  We were made for a relationship with our Creator but were given a free choice whether to connect with him or not.  I think religion is mostly man's ideas about God and as such is a reflection of man's desires, not God's intentions.  Jesus' words and teaching were pretty clear and simple and those who deny Him based on the hundreds of laws and traditions of the ancient Hebrews are, IMO, either confused or willfully rejecting His presence in their lives.  That is their choice and they're free to make it.  

To the OP... the idea that we "can be like God, knowing good from evil" has a familiar ring to it: Genesis 3:5  

"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 

How we perceive ourselves does, in fact, determine much of how we behave in our lives but thinking ourselves to be capable of perfection will never completely overcome our inherent nature.  I believe that only a relationship with God can ever lead to that state and even then it is a struggle.

Maybe everything has a divine spark that makes it alive.

But nothing seems to be perfect.

Life is messy. 

It also seems inherently violent.

Everything survives by eating everything else. 

So maybe it's not about being alive and surviving, but something bigger than that. 

I can hope, anyway. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by ChaosRose

[Crazy Horse]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Maybe everything has a divine spark that makes it alive.

But nothing seems to be perfect.

Life is messy. 

It also seems inherently violent.

Everything survives by eating everything else. 

Life is messy and violent at times. And I am trying to understand why?

But surely, if there is a divine spark that makes everything alive, surely that much is at least is perfect?

[Wes83]

10 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

This idea that we commit crimes because of some kind of self love, only goes to demonstrate how important this idea of Oneness actually is, ie, if you or I, if we both believed in this idea of Oneness, then neither of us would commit a crime against the other.

Love is love, correct, love is not jealousy, hate, spitefulness etc, check out a dictionary if you are confused about the difference. So the reason why a community based on unconditional love might go bad, is not down to love, love isn't the cause of anything bad, the more likely caused would be jealousy or spitefulness etc. A lack of love!

And the fundimental  reason humans have engaged in so much war, is because of this idea of separateness. We believe those people to be separate from us, so we allow ourselves to kill their women and children - genocide couldn't happen with this idea of non-separation and unconditional love.

And to say that we need a common enemy to unite us is utterly preposterous. To have an enemy means division not unity.

And division means suffering.

Where to start?

"Seperateness" is reality. "Oneness" is indeed a nice concept. If you and I are starving I cannot eat for us both. To live is to suffer. And enjoy pleasures and any multitude of things.

To have an adversary drives team building. And I gave another option, a common goal?? 

Nice thoughts won't change the world, acceptance of reality and a desire to improve that reality might.

[Crazy Horse]

13 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

Where to start?

"Seperateness" is reality. "Oneness" is indeed a nice concept. If you and I are starving I cannot eat for us both. To live is to suffer. And enjoy pleasures and any multitude of things.

To have an adversary drives team building. And I gave another option, a common goal?? 

Nice thoughts won't change the world, acceptance of reality and a desire to improve that reality might.

Where to start?

Heres a clue, with the idea of non-separation.

Wes, not nice thoughts per se, but a more enlightened way of thinking and acting will help chamge the world. This idea of non-seperation is not a new concept by any means, Buddha spoke of oneness 500 yrs before Christ. All things are interconnected and interdependent, you hold a book and you hold the universe.

An acceptance of this idea will improve reality, if thats what you want?

 

[Wes83]

5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Where to start?

Heres a clue, with the idea of non-separation.

Wes, not nice thoughts per se, but a more enlightened way of thinking and acting will help chamge the world. This idea of non-seperation is not a new concept by any means, Buddha spoke of oneness 500 yrs before Christ. All things are interconnected and interdependent, you hold a book and you hold the universe.

An acceptance of this idea will improve reality, if thats what you want?

 

But you cannot hold a book and subsequently be holding the universe. I dig it, it sounds good. 

Even noble maybe. But... The reality is-we live in a world of finite resources in a population feeding on materialism with utter disregard of sustainability or true concern for one another-a majority of those Jesus freaks or Satanists, Abraham's descendents or Allah's chosen. Go organized spirituality!!

We live in a world, witnessed in nature, where stronger hunters take the kill of weaker ones because they can.

We live in a world where treatments for disease are given to those with the most money while those in poverty perish without hope. Where mothers sell their children into prostitution to eat for a while.

Where our leaders can actually contemplate nuclear war.

This is the world we live in, competitive, brutal and unforgiving. That is the reality we must accept and hopefully when enough people realise this maybe we can move past where we are now.

Maybe we can learn to value human life again within societies instead of just families, and not even consistantly there.

I saw a video a couple years ago, convenience store robbery in New York. A customer is shot and bleeding out in the floor. Robber leaves and customers start coming in shopping stepping over the dying shopper, the attendant rings them up like nothing happened. Blew me away.

The world needs to be unified, maybe a common goal. But telling people we are all one does nothing. They have eyes, ears, some even have logic. 

Marxism looks good on paper, implementation is the beast. Show me on a large scale how this could work, this nice idea.

[Crazy Horse]

2 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

But you cannot hold a book and subsequently be holding the universe. I dig it, it sounds good. 

Even noble maybe. But... The reality is-we live in a world of finite resources in a population feeding on materialism with utter disregard of sustainability or true concern for one another-a majority of those Jesus freaks or Satanists, Abraham's descendents or Allah's chosen. Go organized spirituality!!

We live in a world, witnessed in nature, where stronger hunters take the kill of weaker ones because they can.

We live in a world where treatments for disease are given to those with the most money while those in poverty perish without hope. Where mothers sell their children into prostitution to eat for a while.

Where our leaders can actually contemplate nuclear war.

This is the world we live in, competitive, brutal and unforgiving. That is the reality we must accept and hopefully when enough people realise this maybe we can move past where we are now.

Maybe we can learn to value human life again within societies instead of just families, and not even consistantly there.

I saw a video a couple years ago, convenience store robbery in New York. A customer is shot and bleeding out in the floor. Robber leaves and customers start coming in shopping stepping over the dying shopper, the attendant rings them up like nothing happened. Blew me away.

The world needs to be unified, maybe a common goal. But telling people we are all one does nothing. They have eyes, ears, some even have logic. 

Marxism looks good on paper, implementation is the beast. Show me on a large scale how this could work, this nice idea.

Yes, and all those problems and issues arise from a belief in a separate God. Because this belief has led us to a human consciousness of separation too, where we don't think it abnormal to rob, murder, lie and cheat each other. If we believed in a   Wholeness of Being, then these things just wouldn't arise.

Telling people we are all one, if believed, and then expressed, would lead us quite naturally and peacefully to an eradication of all wars, all poverty, and all crimes etc. To be fair to me, I never said you just had to say it, I said that a belief in non-separation would change everything - and it would.

If I truly believed that all life were One, then I am not going to hurt anybody. Period.

Btw, a book can only come about by sunlight, minerals, water, nutrients, life, carbon dyoxide/oxygen, mental processes, machines etc. The whole universe is represented by a book. It is the interconnectiveness of the whole universe, or as I call it, Oneness!

[Perdurabo]

On 2/14/2018 at 11:41 AM, Crazy Horse said:

No wonder the world is in such a mess..

But the world is not a mess. It is perfect.

[Perdurabo]

18 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Maybe everything has a divine spark that makes it alive.

But nothing seems to be perfect.

Life is messy. 

It also seems inherently violent.

Everything survives by eating everything else. 

So maybe it's not about being alive and surviving, but something bigger than that. 

I can hope, anyway. 

Imperfect understanding makes the world seem to be imperfect.

The assumption that death is a bad thing is the cause of so much foolishness.

To use an analogy, our lives are like God's dreams. At our core, we are all God. Our lives are stories we are making up as we go along. Death is the end of this particular dream but it is not the end of the Dreamer.

[Crazy Horse]

2 hours ago, Perdurabo said:

But the world is not a mess. It is perfect.

In an ultimate sense, it is perfect, we all chose this way, we made this bed, now we have to sleep in it.

But in a relative sense, things are far from perfect. War, poverty, crime and corruption to name a few.

To see ourselves as perfect in essence and held in the Mind of God, basically to see ourselves a part of a Whole, ultimately as One Being, then this would lead us quite naturally, and quite peacefully towards peace on Earth and an end to all this unnecessary suffering.

[RAyMO]

We are Perfect Beings? True or False

Is it not possible to consider how perfect, or not, humans may be,  outside of a creator / religious envelope?

Is the existence of a God necessary to facilitate a declaration of perfection or otherwise?

Personally, I would have explored the question of human perfection or lack of, in terms of our fit for the world we live in and / or the world we would like to live in. 

If a creator is a necessary element, then for many it will stand to reason that we cannot be perfect, and we merely end up going down the god / no god endless argument. 

Therefore the logical conclusion, based on these restrictions, is False.

[Crazy Horse]

7 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

 

Personally, I would have explored the question of human perfection or lack of, in terms of our fit for the world we live in and / or the world we would like to live in. 

Therefore the logical conclusion, based on these restrictions, is False.

And that is exactly what I am trying to do, explore the question in terms of the world we live in.

To realise that we have a divine perfect spark of divinity means that we must be in and of God, non-separate.

This will lead to peace on Earth.

You may think that we are not perfect but it is this belief that has led us directly to war, poverty, and criminality.

Believe what you want, but know, that some beliefs are helpful, healing, unifying, and some beliefs are not.

[Wes83]

9 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Yes, and all those problems and issues arise from a belief in a separate God. Because this belief has led us to a human consciousness of separation too, where we don't think it abnormal to rob, murder, lie and cheat each other. If we believed in a   Wholeness of Being, then these things just wouldn't arise.

Telling people we are all one, if believed, and then expressed, would lead us quite naturally and peacefully to an eradication of all wars, all poverty, and all crimes etc. To be fair to me, I never said you just had to say it, I said that a belief in non-separation would change everything - and it would.

If I truly believed that all life were One, then I am not going to hurt anybody. Period.

Btw, a book can only come about by sunlight, minerals, water, nutrients, life, carbon dyoxide/oxygen, mental processes, machines etc. The whole universe is represented by a book. It is the interconnectiveness of the whole universe, or as I call it, Oneness!

Agreed, a belief that could infect the worlds population as a whole proclaiming oneness seems like it could be the cure all.

Every day life shows us it is not true, I don't see how to overcome that. 

2 hours ago, Perdurabo said:

But the world is not a mess. It is perfect.

I have to agree with this statement. In the perfection of the world, we have the ability to create heaven on earth or a truly hellish environment. 

I would like to see a world that believed in the "oneness". Not as much as I would like to see a world that believed in truths and wanted to end all suffering.

Where is the truth in the belief you support? Evidence?

[Crazy Horse]

2 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

Agreed, a belief that could infect the worlds population as a whole proclaiming oneness seems like it could be the cure all.

Every day life shows us it is not true, I don't see how to overcome that. 

Well, like everything it starts with an idea.

That we are perfect. This leads to the belief that we are in fact a part of God. The way I imagine it is that we are all held within the Mind of God, so that God is in everything, and everything is in God.

This idea of a non-separate God leads us to a theology of non-separation, which in turn would lead us to a sociology of non-separation, which in turn would lead us quite naturally and peacefully to a world without war, poverty, crime etc.

Certain beliefs and ideas lead to certain actions, some are helpful and healing, some are not!

[Wes83]

47 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Well, like everything it starts with an idea.

That we are perfect. This leads to the belief that we are in fact a part of God. The way I imagine it is that we are all held within the Mind of God, so that God is in everything, and everything is in God.

This idea of a non-separate God leads us to a theology of non-separation, which in turn would lead us to a sociology of non-separation, which in turn would lead us quite naturally and peacefully to a world without war, poverty, crime etc.

Certain beliefs and ideas lead to certain actions, some are helpful and healing, some are not!

Non separate god views do encourage the we are all apart of god scenario, possibly one-ness.

Could it not also encourage a mightiest force of god mentality? I believe it could and would and actually does.

I think the humility to accept we are all specks of stardust drifting through oblivion on a prayers chance of survival-if that understanding really crept through our collective psyche-the world might be united and more compassionate. Something that puts us all on the same level with a common goal. No god needed, just a deeper understanding and acceptance of reality.

 

[Guyver]

 

On 2/14/2018 at 5:46 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Are we Perfect Beings or not?

No, since we make mistakes we are not perfect.  A perfect diamond has no flaws.  People have flaws.  But, if by perfect, you mean as good as we can be in our non-perfect state, I'd still say no.  Genetic disorders, diseases, birth defects, etc. render people less than perfect.  

[Guyver]

On 2/14/2018 at 5:46 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Basically, what would it do to the human psyche if we regarded ourselves a "perfect beings" instead of "original sinners"?

I don't think we're perfect, or original sinners......so I would consider both untrue.  Does telling yourself something that's not true help in some way?

[Guyver]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:07 AM, and then said:

 We were made for a relationship with our Creator but were given a free choice whether to connect with him or not. 

Do you mean Adam and Eve were made for a relationship with God?   Or do you think that every human being is made for a relationship with God and given a free choice to connect with him or not?

I'm trying to understand what you mean, because I've heard so many people describe wishing to have a relationship with God but finding that there's nothing there.  And I understand how it certainly appears that way.  Like, when you pray......you talk to God right?  But God doesn't actually talk back.....does he?

So, to truly connect with God, one would have to be able to communicate in more than a one-way fashion.  Or am I missing something here?

[Wes83]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

I don't think we're perfect, or original sinners......so I would consider both untrue.  Does telling yourself something that's not true help in some way?

That's what I was trying to say...

[Will Due]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Does telling yourself something that's not true help in some way?

 

Possibly, so long that you don't become what isn't true.

 

 

[Truthseeker007]

5 hours ago, Guyver said:

Do you mean Adam and Eve were made for a relationship with God?   Or do you think that every human being is made for a relationship with God and given a free choice to connect with him or not?

I'm trying to understand what you mean, because I've heard so many people describe wishing to have a relationship with God but finding that there's nothing there.  And I understand how it certainly appears that way.  Like, when you pray......you talk to God right?  But God doesn't actually talk back.....does he?

So, to truly connect with God, one would have to be able to communicate in more than a one-way fashion.  Or am I missing something here?

The problems we have is that most of the world thinks Adam and Eve actually happened by the Bible. This is what we are dealing with....

 

[Truthseeker007]

The Powers that Be did a great job of putting people under mind control! ha ha ha