We are Perfect Beings?

[Illyrius]

21 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Are we Perfect Beings or not?

I mean this in an ultimate sense more than a relative sense.

Is our Essential Beingness more Godlike, or are we as a species more the spawn of the Devil?

And what would this mean for humanity if this idea were widely accepted and therefor became the foundation of all our thoughts, conversations, and actions too!

Basically, what would it do to the human psyche if we regarded ourselves a "perfect beings" instead of "original sinners"?

I would put it like this. We are mixture of light and darkness, and truly i don't know what is the ultimate goal of spiritual advancement. Enlightement? But what would that mean? To have a consciousness means to discern the opposites, and if we are pure light or pure darkness, what sort of consciousness would that be, if any?

[Crazy Horse]

34 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

I would put it like this. We are mixture of light and darkness, and truly i don't know what is the ultimate goal of spiritual advancement. Enlightement? But what would that mean? To have a consciousness means to discern the opposites, and if we are pure light or pure darkness, what sort of consciousness would that be, if any?

I would see it more like this, that we are nothing but pure light, but because of free will and the environment that we are born into, (the idea of Seperateness being the main issue), that basically we make bad choices. This clouds our Sun and creates dark shadows across the globe. And we all make bad choices! Bad diets for example are the number one killer in the West, leading to diabetes, heart disease, cancer etc...

But if we had only pure light for a consciousness, after experiencing the other side so to speak, then that consciousness would be Godlike, and I would suggest that is why we are here. To experience both sides, and then choose to live a life of Amazing Grandness..

[I'mConvinced]

False.  I won't go into why as I'm sure it would only offend those who have already decided.

[Crazy Horse]

13 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

False.  I won't go into why as I'm sure it would only offend those who have already decided.

What is false Mr ImConvinced?

If you are worried about offending me, then speak nicely with repsect and integrity.

I really don't mind different opinions, especially if there is a genuine interest in seeking the truth, in fact I absolutely welcome them.

[I'mConvinced]

5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

What is false Mr ImConvinced?

That we are perfect beings. First though it will all depend upon your definition of perfect I guess.

5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

If you are worried about offending me, then speak nicely with repsect and integrity

I'm puzzled. You felt I was trying to derail another of your threads when I engaged you. Enough in fact to ask a mod to clarify the best way of dealing with derailers such as myself.

I wasn't aware of any lack of respect or integrity there and I don't really like the implication here.

5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

I really don't mind different opinions, especially if there is a genuine interest in seeking the truth, in fact I absolutely welcome them.

Our starting points are perhaps too far removed to find a common ground for discussion. For me, terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' cannot apply to humans and human knowledge. 

[Will Due]

28 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

For me, terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' cannot apply to humans and human knowledge. 

 

I see it now.

That way whatever you do and whatever happens, you get out from under any and all responsibility. 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Will Due

[Crazy Horse]

35 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

That we are perfect beings. First though it will all depend upon your definition of perfect I guess.

I'm puzzled. You felt I was trying to derail another of your threads when I engaged you. Enough in fact to ask a mod to clarify the best way of dealing with derailers such as myself.

I wasn't aware of any lack of respect or integrity there and I don't really like the implication here.

Our starting points are perhaps too far removed to find a common ground for discussion. For me, terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' cannot apply to humans and human knowledge. 

My definition of perfect is simply an exemplification of unconditional love, to everyone and at all times. This I see as a perfect expression of our devine nature, but if you prefer, you can leave God out of the equation and simply focus on love.

And I didnt think that you were derailing my other thread, one of the mods thought so, but not I. I actually find it very constricting although there has to be some "law and order". I did ask afterwards what the best way was to deal with derailers, but that was after the warning.

As for any lack of respect and integrity, you were worried about offending someone, so I simply said that you dont need to worry if you treat people with respect etc.

And as for your last point, I think you are right, our starting points are probably too far apart. I most definitely do see terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' as being relevant to the human condiction, otherwise what is the alternative? Living a lie and in imperfection, without even the nous to try and straighten things out? What good is that kind of attitude?

[Podo]

13 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Good morning Mr P

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly. To set it in a religious context, although self worth doesnt have to be about religion per se, but you mention the Abrahamic Religions - this idea of a seperate God, along side this notion of original sin, has been immensely detrimental to our innate sense of well being. 

The whole religious theologies are one of separateness, so that over the millennia, that theology has led us to a sociology of divisiveness, which has been the major cause of all of societies problems and issues.

If the Churches Cosmology were Oneness, that you and I and God and the whole of creation were actually One, then we would look after one another without a second thought. Those starving millions wouldn't be allowed to happen, war wouldn't exsist, crime, corruption - the world wouldn't know these things.

Yes. The abrahamics do not encourage such things, more's the pity. I'm no fan of religion, but if more of it was as you say, the world would be a much better place.

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Podo said:

Yes. The abrahamics do not encourage such things, more's the pity. I'm no fan of religion, but if more of it was as you say, the world would be a much better place.

Traditional Quakers do. That's why we had no ministers and prayed or meditated in silence 

[I'mConvinced]

5 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

I see it now.

That way whatever you do and whatever happens, you get out from under any and all responsibility. 

 

 

Hogwash. If you need a higher power to be a decent human being then that's on your conscience, I can exist peacefully alongside my fellow human beings without knowing 'the truth'.

I have many responsibilities I hold dear and I uphold them proudly. Who are you to judge without knowing me?

[I'mConvinced]

4 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And as for your last point, I think you are right, our starting points are probably too far apart. I most definitely do see terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' as being relevant to the human condiction, otherwise what is the alternative? Living a lie and in imperfection, without even the nous to try and straighten things out? What good is that kind of attitude?

Why is it so black and white to you? This is a false dilemma.

[+and-then]

On 2/14/2018 at 11:34 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Hi and then

Thanks for the considered, intelligent reply, just one thing really, you say that you think that we are sparks of the Divine..

This spark if Divine must be perfect, in essence that makes us perfect too, so our inherent nature is Godlike. 

To reccognise this perfection and then to try and demonstrate, and actually exemplify our divine beingness, is one way to eradicate all the ills in our hearts and in the world too.

 

 

My allusion was meant to convey the idea that we were made in the image of the Creator.  I have always thought of that as representing our self-awareness and ability to have free will in our choices.  I don't think it means we are created as perfected beings.  Humans would not be as prone to hate and to subjugating and dominating the weak if we were the completed project, so to speak.  The first step down that path is the salvation that is offered to mankind.  We must recognize our faults and be willing to live above them as best we are able and set them in our wake before we can progress to a better place.  I think of the idea of "heaven" as the next step in the evolution of our species.  Those who want to take this next step have to be willing to accept the will of the Creator.  Most will refuse and be left behind in the physical grave, IMO.  

[Will Due]

15 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Who are you to judge without knowing me?

 

You're the judge.

 

Quote

You said:

"For me, terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' cannot apply to humans and human knowledge."

 

So I commented.

 

 

[Wes83]

The attainment of perfection seems to be a self ratification process probably ending in some ego trip for the poor soul on that journey. Or it could end with a quivering, shaking ball of a man(or woman) afraid of making a mistake with every breath.

I like the teachings of the Tao, be ready and at ease.

Love. Many crimes are committed out of the strongest of loves. Love is just another thing, certainly to be appreciated when shared. To highly esteemed and you have a criminal waiting to be born. Were there a god it certainly would not be love. Read the news-every one of those people doing the most horrific things would be gods creations. Maybe we could be its playthings?

God is chaos.

[Dejarma]

We are Perfect Beings?

compared to what?

[Dejarma]

46 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

Read the news-every one of those people doing the most horrific things would be gods creations. Maybe we could be its playthings?

for every horrendous act we hear of in the media, there are millions of wonderful caring acts of humanity happening every day around the world- we just don't hear of them....

[I'mConvinced]

54 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You're the judge.

Indeed I am and I find myself worthy.

54 minutes ago, Will Due said:

So I commented.

Yes, with a baseless and fairly rude assessment. I understand you disagree with the statement but the conclusion you have drawn is flat out wrong. I could try and explain but it would be a thankless, and ultimately fruitless, task.

[I'mConvinced]

6 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

for every horrendous act we hear of in the media, there are millions of wonderful caring acts of humanity happening every day around the world- we just don't hear of them....

The day we have to be concerned is the day the news only reports on the good acts, for it will surely mean that the terrible is now so commonplace as to hold no fascination.

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

Why is it so black and white to you? This is a false dilemma.

Its very simple.

Our beliefs lead us to certain actions, these actions can have a positive affect upon the hearts and minds of those folks you meet, or they can have a negative affect. There are many various degrees of effectiveness, but cause and effect, action and reaction, are evident all day, every day.

To say "....terms such as 'truth' and 'perfection' cannot apply to humans and human knowledge.'

Just this belief is very restricting if expressed. If everyone felt the same then we would have no science and no spirituality whatsoever. 

You claim to not believe in God? Well that is absolutley fine, but let me ask, what do you believe in?

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, and then said:

My allusion was meant to convey the idea that we were made in the image of the Creator.  I have always thought of that as representing our self-awareness and ability to have free will in our choices.  I don't think it means we are created as perfected beings.  Humans would not be as prone to hate and to subjugating and dominating the weak if we were the completed project, so to speak.  The first step down that path is the salvation that is offered to mankind.  We must recognize our faults and be willing to live above them as best we are able and set them in our wake before we can progress to a better place.  I think of the idea of "heaven" as the next step in the evolution of our species.  Those who want to take this next step have to be willing to accept the will of the Creator.  Most will refuse and be left behind in the physical grave, IMO.  

Hello and then

Let me ask you, do you see God, whatever that Word actually means to you personally, but do you see God as a seperate being?

I do actually believe that a baby is born perfect, in essence, maybe not physically, but thats another question all together, but if that baby were raised up in a world of "Oneness", then those actions of hatered and subjugation etc wouldnt arise. So in other words, its not so much that we lack a perfect essence, but that we lack a world that believes such a thing?

Personally, I think that we are "selling" God a little short by thinking otherwise! 

But I agree with recognising our short comings, especially with this lack of an ability to express and demonstrate unconditional love to one and all, 24/7. That is something that we can consciously work on..

I believe that humanity has the capability to overcome death, and in so doing we will create a New Heaven and a New Earth.

That my friend, would be the next giant step in evolution..

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, Wes83 said:

The attainment of perfection seems to be a self ratification process probably ending in some ego trip for the poor soul on that journey. Or it could end with a quivering, shaking ball of a man(or woman) afraid of making a mistake with every breath.

I like the teachings of the Tao, be ready and at ease.

Love. Many crimes are committed out of the strongest of loves. Love is just another thing, certainly to be appreciated when shared. To highly esteemed and you have a criminal waiting to be born. Were there a god it certainly would not be love. Read the news-every one of those people doing the most horrific things would be gods creations. Maybe we could be its playthings?

God is chaos.

How are crimes committed out of love Wes?

It is not the attainment of perfection, we are already perfect, we just forgot, and in the forgetting we do all kinds of ignorant things to ourselves and each other. We are a part of God, held within the mind of God, so in essence, we are perfcet - and powerful creative beings......at least that is my belief, and because of this belief I am slowly moving towards a place of unconditional love for all beings at all times. This journey would be a lot quicker if everybody held the same idea of Oneness.

This is no ego trip, In fact I would say that it the very opposite of an ego trip, more like a "Love thy neighbour as thy-self" kinda trip!

And I do read the news every day, and I ask myself the same question every day - why are folks doing this to each other..?

Wes, why are folks doing this to each other?

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, Dejarma said:

We are Perfect Beings?

compared to what?

Why the need for comparison?

Surely it is enough that we are in essence perfect!

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

The day we have to be concerned is the day the news only reports on the good acts, for it will surely mean that the terrible is now so commonplace as to hold no fascination.

Or.....

It means that humanity has awakened to its true nature and has learnt to express that divinity..

 

[Crazy Horse]

8 hours ago, Wes83 said:

God is chaos.

You can blame God all you want, but that will solve nothing.

Humanity has free will. We are born into a world of division born from a belief of separation - from God and from each other.

This is why there is so much chaos..

It is about time that humanity starts to take responcibility for the state of planet Earth, and for the way in which we treat each other - you do agree Wes?

[Dejarma]

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

Why the need for comparison?

Because that's the way basic logic works, matey. 

Quote

Are we Perfect Beings or not?

Or you could ask:

is this the perfect curry recipe?= a matter of opinion via sampling other recipes.

Or:

is this the longest wall? You would need to have seen other walls to answer that, logically!

So your question is illogical