Parkland School Shooting Discussion Thread

[RavenHawk]

I may not agree 100% with everything, but I don’t see a bad post in the last hour or so.  Keep it up.

[+and-then]

10 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I am liberal in some things but not in others.  I don't think liberals or conservatives are a solid block.  Some liberals are total jerks.  Some conservatives are too.   I don't think all issues can be divided so neatly into one or the other and not all people fall on the same side of both issues. .  I don't think bigger or more government is a solution.  I don't think arming teachers is going to solve the problem.  We are raising our children in an medicated, escalating climate of fear and violence.    That has to stop.  The government can't do that.  I see both sides denigrating and name calling, that doesn't help with compromising.  It is not a simple problem with easy solutions.  Its going to take effort and work and tooth grinding confrontations to arrive at something better.  I suppose I show my progressive side when I think things can be better than they are, though we may not get there doing more of what we have done at either extreme.

I agree that labels can be troublesome and insufficient to name a problem fully.  I can but point to the Democrat party's stance on the major issues of our time.  I fully realize that neither party is a solid block.  Republicans have sold out their constituencies as well.  My point about arming teachers was carefully limited and I've made other suggestions about dealing with this contagion of violence with incremental, viable measures that stay clear of causing a Constitutional crisis.  I have lost any hope of our culture stepping back from the madness that has enveloped it so long as media companies and entertainment ventures have a free hand to spread their values in an unlimited way to literally every corner of this land.  It is POISON and it is effectively destroying the fabric of this nation.  Until a will exists to rein it in, meeting insane violence with unyielding force is all we can reasonably do, if we want to save the next groups of children who are forced to sit in government classrooms.  Someone earlier said they didn't want to live in an armed camp - or something like that - and I say, neither do I.  Reality sometimes leaves only choices between bad or worse.  Shouldn't this group of innocents be the last to die before we at least TRY to make some changes? 

And finally, regarding labels, my problem with the real concept of Progressivism is that it is fundamentally opposed to our Constitution and the rights it enumerates for citizens.  If you are unaware of this fact or doubt it then please read some of Woodrow Wilson's, or John Dewey's work on Progressive ideology.  The Constitution has held this nation together through a couple of centuries of extreme challenges and has mechanisms to judiciously invoke change.  The amendment process is a very high bar and it was designed to be.  Progressives in today's culture are open about wanting to sidestep such processes.  

[Michelle]

1 hour ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I know what it means. It means that your sister was a total badass.

 

1 hour ago, Piney said:

Dippy Japanese midget is more like it.  

It's all in the attitude. 

[freetoroam]

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

You don’t understand the reference to Adam eating the apple and the Garden of Eden?  When Adam ate of the apple, Man became aware.  He could no longer go back to living blissfully ignorant

When did man ever live blissfully ignorant? 

History shows man has always had an agressive streak in him. The want for power is not new and man killed for it over thousands of years.

We have evolved for the better, history is reaped with wars and mass killings and all kinds of atrocities.

The civilans  of America have their arms and they want to keep them, go back even further in history and you will see man around the world had  spears....and they only went because better weapons came along. 

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Likewise, our Founding Fathers ate of the proverbial apple of Enlightenment and Man became aware of Natural Rights. 

Not sure aware is the word i would use, more like  Man himself had to make his own rights and rules, this came from trying to learn how to live in bigger and growing societies. 

I am not sure what you mean by natural rights. With aĺl due respect, you speak about eating from apples.....i see it as evolving and we are still evolving and still have much to learn.

Our society is safer today than is was in the past...the difference now is we have instant communication...when a few people die we hear about it straight away...in the past whole villages were killed and killings were rampant ( be it down to the want of their land or because of their religion )  

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

When Man fully matures, then things like mass shootings and even wars will begin to wane.  It’ll only happen when we are no longer dependent on government.  Centralized government is the cause of much of the unrest. 

I disagree. Religion is the cause of much of the unrest. It has been in the past and it is in the present and it will be in the fuure.

Religion has been involved in many of the atrocities, be it by an army of men or a lone nutter.  There have been many men who have 'gathered' followers because people believed in the religion they are preaching...the people killed and they died in the name of the religion and it is still going on today. 

Man is evolving for the better, yes we have rights and we need some sort of organized bodies to enforce them because our societies are still filled with people who want to do their own thing and do not give a damn about the next man. Jeeze  i just need to go out in my car to see how selfish people can be.

How would you feel is someone on your street decided they did not want to follow any government rules and refused to have a car licence or car insurance and insisted they had a right to own a gun without holding a licence for it?

How would you feel if people refused to pay for the cleaning of their cities or clean running water? 

How would you feel if you were persecuted by your neighbours because you were not the same colour or religion as them as the authorities did nothing to stop it because those people thought it were their 'natural' rights ? Jeeze how many years did America go through that....and THAT is still going on in some areas..but no where near like it used be. 

Things are getting better in the west, but going back to the REAL issue of this thread,  psychotic teenagers who are able to get to the stage where they kill even after they have made the threats and advertised their weapons on social media = now this is where the authorities failed...BUT BUT BUT...you do not want to be dependant on centralized governments. 

Had the FBI not taken the threats with a pinch of salt because they thought is was just another keyboard warrior who legally owned a gun and it was his right to do so...17 young people could be alive today.

I massive mistake was made there,  and it was the authorities fault for NOT enforcing their powers.

Please note i do not disagree with much of what you say,  but when you mention god and go down that route, i am certainly on the other side of the fence. There is no god imo and there never will be, to me the thought that there is a god with the history of deaths and atrocities we have behind us, infront of us and certainly in front of us (only time will let us know for how long) is naive, ignorant and dangerous. 

Man does not need gods and religion to know what love and goodness is....only man can educate himself and only man can save himself and only man can try to do something about the psychotic loose cannons in our society. 

Peace.

 

[acidhead]

^^^ @. Freetoroam

Personally I'm not religious either yet if I had to choose between the Christian faith vs GOV I'd choose the faith.

I'm as far right libertarian as it gets.

We've seen what happens when faith in yourself to see yourself in God's image  is disbanded and replaced with a GOV for all people.  And all this has been proven over the past one hundred years.

The whole point behind believing in Christ is to believe in yourself. To be good to yourself so in turn you can be good to others...  Take responsibility for your being.

Example: provide for your family and friends financially and emotionally as best you can.  You are the image of every great man before you.  Never ever give up. You only live once.  Make the best of it.  Nobody owes you anything.  You owe everything to yourself first.

 

 

[freetoroam]

25 minutes ago, acidhead said:

^^^ @. Freetoroam

Personally I'm not religious either yet if I had to choose between the Christian faith vs GOV I'd choose the faith.

I'm as far right libertarian as it gets.

We've seen what happens when faith in yourself to see yourself in God's image  is disbanded and replaced with a GOV for all people.  And all this has been proven over the past one hundred years.

The whole point behind believing in Christ is to believe in yourself. To be good to yourself so in turn you can be good to others...  Take responsibility for your being.

Example: provide for your family and friends financially and emotionally as best you can.  You are the image of every great man before you.  Never ever give up. You only live once.  Make the best of it.  Nobody owes you anything.  You owe everything to yourself first.

 

 

I would not choose religion....too much blood has been spilt though history because of religioua divides and although the term governments is used here.....the majority of those in the past which are being classed as the governments - were religious rulers. 

We can not live in a society without governing rules, but we can certainly live without religion.

Do not get me wrong, i am certainly not a government person, but i pay my taxes and live in a society, so i want to see my taxes being used to keep our neighborhood clean and safe and if our contry were ever invaded, i would expect our government to.have the resources to protect us.

But there are many things i am against what our government is going.....building mega mosques and free NHS to every Tombi, DIcra and Abdul is something i would ( and have)  taken to the streets to protest against .

To the bold.....if you live and work within a society, then you have to have some form of governing body. 

Unless you have a private doctor and dentist and grow all your own food and work for yourself and are fully self sufficiant, and have your own private roads and your petrol sypply and your own clean running water and your own electricity.....then somewhere along the line you have to  live with a governing body.

Trust me, if i coud live completely off the grid, i would and i respect nature and other people.

We have moved from being barbarians in the western world,  but i also know there are many pigs and selfish people out there.  We are still at the stage where we would have anarchi without rules.

[acidhead]

13 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

I would not choose religion....too much blood has been spilt though history because of religioua divides and although the term governments is used here.....the majority of those in the past which are being classed as the governments - were religious rulers. 

We can not live in a society without governing rules, but we can certainly live without religion.

Do not get me wrong, i am certainly not a government person, but i pay my taxes and live in a society, so i want to see my taxes being used to keep our neighborhood clean and safe and if our contry were ever invaded, i would expect our government to.have the resources to protect us.

But there are many things i am against what our government is going.....building mega mosques and free NHS to every Tombi, DIcra and Abdul is something i would ( and have)  taken to the streets to protest against .

To the bold.....if you live and work within a society, then you have to have some form of governing body. 

Unless you have a private doctor and dentist and grow all your own food and work for yourself and are fully self sufficiant, and have your own private roads and your petrol sypply and your own clean running water and your own electricity.....then somewhere along the line you have to  live with a governing body.

Trust me, if i coud live completely off the grid, i would and i respect nature and other people.

We have moved from being barbarians in the western world,  but i also know there are many pigs and selfish people out there.  We are still at the stage where we would have anarchi without rules.

Limited government is not the same as anarchy without rules.

The sole responsibility of government is to protect liberty.

The second amendment in the USA is it's safeguard.

[acidhead]

I'm Canadian.  I can see America from my house.  It's just across the water here in Victoria, BC.  The USA is the beacon of freedom historically.  I hope it stays that way.  No greater country ever.

[Only_]

1 hour ago, acidhead said:

The whole point behind believing in Christ is to believe in yourself. To be good to yourself so in turn you can be good to others...  Take responsibility for your being

 

 

I like this.

[acidhead]

11 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

I like this.

That's great. I wish many more would. It's in all of us.

[+susieice]

A father in Maryland turned in his 18 yr old daughter after he found her journal detailing plans to attack her school on April 5, in which she intended to die. When police searched the house, they found a shotgun and items needed to make bombs. The girl was taken to a hospital for a mental evaluation. Later she will be charged. I know it was hard, but, good job dad!

http://wjla.com/news/local/father-turns-in-daughter-after-finding-journal-with-plans-of-mass-shooting-at-md-school

[+ouija ouija]

11 hours ago, and then said:

That's kind of the point.  And those in government UNDERSTAND this as well.  Ouija, you need to look at the history of guerrilla warfare a bit closer.  Or you need to reevaluate the apparently poor opinion you have of Americans and their desire to fight back against a bunch of others that want to TELL them how they'll live their lives.  No one imagines that such a fight would easy or bloodless.  It would be absolutely APPALLING and it would touch every community in one way or another but it wouldn't begin unless that government decided by Fiat to remove the second amendment.

Unfortunately, a large proportion of the population needs to be told how to live their lives otherwise it would be a complete free-for-all .... every man for himself. The worst of the adult bullies would rule the roost.

11 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Unfortunately, most Americans do not practice the 2^nd Amendment in full.  There needs to be more militias.  We need to raise awareness starting in the schools.  Citizenship should be taught in the schools which includes how to use and respect guns and how to act in a well-regulated militia.  That way you could set up a firewatch among the students to share the duty on a schedule.   That way, not every one would need to carry arms all the time.  Plus, it would solidify the unity and organization of the people into adulthood, making it more difficult of a government gone amok to subjugate the people.

 

This seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I fear you are too idealistic and not appreciating the reality of such organisations. Who would they attract as leaders? The local power-crazy, big mouth bully of course. I think you have too much trust in young men around guns. I don't believe it matters how well they are trained, if they feel they have been 'dissed', made a fool of or feel life is currently unfair to them and there's a weapon to hand they will use it.

Plus, what's to stop these 'militia' groups fighting against each other if they feel wronged? 

11 hours ago, and then said:

The Left is firmly in control of the schools and it might take weathering a firestorm of protest from the unions and media complex but I think it's time to have that conversation and then DEMAND some changes.  The young people are being taught that America is responsible for all things bad in this world, at least on some level.  Local communities should be able to have organized militias that would be the armed equivalent of "neighborhood watch" and that would take some of the stress off harried and understaffed police departments.  The key is to instill a sense of investment and get people to buy back into the idea of active citizenship.  I would expect the Federal government to resist such ideas and for litigation to work it's way up to the USSC but if the structure of such militias was sound and there was no unreasonable infringement of rights, it should pass the test.  There is at least one such group out there today that I'm aware of and while it certainly isn't perfect, it's at least a beginning.  I use one of their slogans in my signature.

So you don't have any law that prevents the construction of armed civilian militia groups?

Other thoughts: If only the F.B.I. had at least alerted the local police to Cruz's online activities. If only the local police had said 'We've been called out to his house too many times .... HE'S NOT LEARNING .... we have to take him out of society for a while'.  I think this 'he/she is not learning' is important in so many crimes whether it be connected to cars/driving, child abuse, domestic violence etc. etc. People are given way too many chances these days ..... they don't even get a 'slap on the wrist' so why should they give up doing what they're doing? I know some posters here don't want to hear it, but the fact is, some people need to be slapped really hard before they summon up the self-discipline to be a reasonable member of society.

[aztek]

On 2/16/2018 at 6:04 PM, pallidin said:

The U.S. Bill of Rights simply will not permit the full exclusion of gun ownership. Nor should it.

However, there can be a partial exclusion, such as those with mental illness; medically recognized as being emotionally incompetent to possess firearms.

 

definitely,  and much more than just mental, and we already have all of that on books. i'm sure covered more than with just 1 law for each.  data isn't always entered, for many reasons,  with so many laws, data may not be entered, cuz other law prohibits it, or human error, or  ..............

the thing i find strange, that liberals scream its guns, blame reps, and nra,   they say mental issue is not the problem,  yet every time something like this happens , there  is often changes in some gun laws, somewhere in usa, yet it has never worked, mass shooting continue, while we still ignore mental aspect.  and do nothing about it.  sure it's easier to attack the gun lobby, tiny compared to medical cartel,  and i'm sure fda is involved to, they approve all those meds, so no chance it will change as well, 

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by aztek

[+susieice]

Didn't realize last night the story about the girl in Maryland was from last year. Did find an update. On January 31 of this year, she was sentenced to 20 years with an additional 5 of probation after release.

https://wtop.com/frederick-county/2018/01/md-teen-gets-20-year-jail-time-shooting-plot-catoctin-high-school/

[+ouija ouija]

34 minutes ago, susieice said:

Didn't realize last night the story about the girl in Maryland was from last year. Did find an update. On January 31 of this year, she was sentenced to 20 years with an additional 5 of probation after release.

https://wtop.com/frederick-county/2018/01/md-teen-gets-20-year-jail-time-shooting-plot-catoctin-high-school/

WOW! That's quite a sentence. Well done Maryland. The best years of her life ..... spent in jail.

[Merc14]

20 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

WOW! That's quite a sentence. Well done Maryland. The best years of her life ..... spent in jail.

Interesting response,,  what do you propose MD should'e done with this would be mass murderer?

[+ouija ouija]

32 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Interesting response,,  what do you propose MD should'e done with this would be mass murderer?

I'm wondering if you've misunderstood my post? I think Maryland has done the right thing, I wasn't being sarcastic. 

[Merc14]

4 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

I'm wondering if you've misunderstood my post? I think Maryland has done the right thing, I wasn't being sarcastic. 

I did misread, thanks for explaining and I agree.

[skliss]

16 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

 

That “very interesting emergency” could range from protecting the schools and other low hanging fruit to providing a check against an overreaching government.  The solution is not to take away guns but to embrace them.  The take away here is to engage in citizenship; to be proud of one’s nation. 

With a side order of learning discipline, consequences and personal responsibility.

[freetoroam]

2 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

WOW! That's quite a sentence. Well done Maryland. The best years of her life ..... spent in jail.

Should have been the best years but she chose to plan on killing innocent people instead.....so if her father had not turned her in, it could have been the devastation of many families. 

She was never going to have any best years of her life...

Quote

She also bought materials to assemble pipe bombs such as pipes, end caps, shrapnel, magnesium tape and fireworks; and she told police that she intended to kill herself with a shotgun she bought, a news release said.

https://wtop.com/frederick-county/2018/01/md-teen-gets-20-year-jail-time-shooting-plot-catoctin-high-school/

The sentence will increase her life spam......not that i see that as a bonus, but it has certainly saved others lives. 

[GlitterRose]

Everyone can agree that we don't want schools getting shot up.

People just disagree on possible solutions to the problem.

One side thinks more guns will solve it, and the other side thinks the guns are the problem. 

Personally, I don't think turning our schools into a modern day version of the wild west is really a solution. 

Maybe just trying to keep crazy people from getting the guns would help. 

[+susieice]

A 15 yr old from Michigan who had been bullied in school was investigated for threatening to shoot at the school. Police investigated and found weapons in the house that the parents had securely locked up. The boy's threat isn't considered credible, but he will most likely be monitored. Another good move by parents, and bullying seriously needs to be addressed in our schools also.

 http://nbc25news.com/news/local/police-bullied-teen-allegedly-threatened-to-shoot-students-at-ea-johnson-high-school

[+susieice]

The New York Post is reporting Cruz's younger brother, who turns 18 next week, has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution. It is unknown if he has been released yet.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/school-shooters-brother-committed-to-mental-facility/

Cruz had been diagnosed with autism, which did not have any affect on what he did Wednesday. He had purchased 5 other guns in the last year. They were recovered from the home where he was staying. That family said they didn't suspect anything and that they knew he had guns they made him keep locked up. They think he may have had another key made for himself.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/18/nikolas-cruz-showed-no-warning-signs-before-florida-school-shooting-say-couple-who-took-him-in.html

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200754714.html

 

[Paranormal Panther]

20 hours ago, Michelle said:

 

It's all in the attitude. 

Who needs attitude when you're an amazon? You should know. 

[+susieice]

I don't know if anyone else watched Meet The Press today, but this is a transcript we should all read because these kids are expressing how they feel. Pay attention. Thanks.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-florida-school-shooting-survivors-david-hogg-emma-gonzalez-on-face-the-nation-feb-18-2018/