Parkland School Shooting Discussion Thread

[Paranormal Panther]

21 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I gained a limited amount of wisdom by being really stupid a lot.  I have a shady past that would come back to bite me.   My mom did tell me never be a thief, a lawyer or a politician. Good advice from an old lady.

I would never be a politician because of blackmail fears. Said fears come from college friends, not Russian spies.

[Paranormal Panther]

16 hours ago, susieice said:

A father in Maryland turned in his 18 yr old daughter after he found her journal detailing plans to attack her school on April 5, in which she intended to die. When police searched the house, they found a shotgun and items needed to make bombs. The girl was taken to a hospital for a mental evaluation. Later she will be charged. I know it was hard, but, good job dad!

http://wjla.com/news/local/father-turns-in-daughter-after-finding-journal-with-plans-of-mass-shooting-at-md-school

The dad should work for the FBI. He could actually save lives.

[freetoroam]

1 hour ago, susieice said:

I don't know if anyone else watched Meet The Press today, but this is a transcript we should all read because these kids are expressing how they feel. Pay attention. Thanks.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-florida-school-shooting-survivors-david-hogg-emma-gonzalez-on-face-the-nation-feb-18-2018/

The laws are not the only thing which failed these children or needs changing.  But this part is certainly a major aspect of it:

Quote

It's not needed to hunt bears, an AR 15 is a weapon of war and a 19 year old who is mentally challenged and has problems was able to buy an AR 15 easily.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-florida-school-shooting-survivors-david-hogg-emma-gonzalez-on-face-the-nation-feb-18-2018/

Americans will not give up their arms.... not only does the law needs changing, but parents need to take control of what is going on with their childrens lives. 

Adam Lanza also had a mental illness, he had a mother who was oblivious to what he was doing in his bedroom....another parent quite happy to get on with their lives while their child was on their computer...they even communicated by email although they were in the same house. 

And here is the story with the family Cruz was staying with:

Quote

The Sneads allowed Cruz to bring his firearms into the home,

"This family did what they thought was right, which was take in a troubled kid and try to help him

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/18/us/florida-shooting-cruz-family/index.html

the family had no idea what he was doing in his room or what he was putting on social media...but they knew he had problems and yet still allowed him to own guns and bring them into their house...jeeze!!!!! I can not believe i have just read that.

The fact they made him lock them up is irrelevant, anyone with troubles should NOT be allowed to legally own a gun and even though the law allows them to, the adult housing the child should not just shrug their shoulders and basically say...well its legal! 

ALL the adults need to take responsibilty,  they are YOUR children and YOUR responsibility .....before any governing body.

If the law changes,  does not mean the likes of Lanza or Cruz will not get into the gun cupboard, so what then? Any household with someone with a mental illness should not be allowed to have guns in there at all? ...  maybe more parent would start taking notice of what was happening in their childrens lives if this was up for debate. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by freetoroam

[Black Red Devil]

18 hours ago, acidhead said:

I'm Canadian.  I can see America from my house.  It's just across the water here in Victoria, BC.  The USA is the beacon of freedom historically.  I hope it stays that way.  No greater country ever.

Oh well, if you judge a citizens Right to bear arms to be the typical demonstration of a country's freedom in this progressive world of ours, then why aren't other progressive societies following that lead?

Constitutions which historically guaranteed a right to bear arms are those of Bolivia, Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Liberia, Mexico, Nicaragua and the United States of America.^[4] Nearly all of the Latin American examples were modelled on that of the United States.^[3] At present, out of the world’s nearly 200 constitutions, three still include a right to bear arms: Guatemala, Mexico, and the United States; of these three, only the last does not include explicit restrictive conditions^.

link

All those countries listed are third world and have the highest murder rate in the world.  I also added and bolded the part "in this progressive world of ours" because your statement of the USA being the beacon of freedom historically was true.  These constant uncontrolled school massacres due to an outdated Right are not "freedoms" that will be followed by other progressive societies.

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[+susieice]

27 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

The laws are not the only thing which failed these children or needs changing.  But this part is certainly a major aspect of it:

Americans will not give up their arms.... not only does the law needs changing, but parents need to take control of what is going on with their childrens lives. 

Adam Lanza also had a mental illness, he had a mother who was oblivious to what he was doing in his bedroom....another parent quite happy to get on with their lives while their child was on their computer...they even communicated by email although they were in the same house. 

And here is the story with the family Cruz was staying with:

the family had no idea what he was doing in his room or what he was putting on social media...but they knew he had problems and yet still allowed him to own guns and bring them into their house...jeeze!!!!! I can not believe i have just read that.

The fact they made him lock them up is irrelevant, anyone with troubles should NOT be allowed to legally own a gun and even though the law allows them to, the adult housing the child should not just shrug their shoulders and basically say...well its legal! 

ALL the adults need to take responsibilty,  they are YOUR children and YOUR responsibility .....before any governing body.

If the law changes,  does not mean the likes of Lanza or Cruz will not get into the gun cupboard, so what then? Any household with someone with a mental illness should not be allowed to have guns in there at all? ...  maybe more parent would start taking notice of what was happening in their childrens lives if this was up for debate. 

There were a couple people killed about 30 miles from me by a man who was involuntarily committed for mental illness and got ahold of a gun belonging to his mother. Still waiting to hear if she will be charged. He also sold many he obtained on the streets. That's why those kids told Republicans they need to be there if they support changing laws on mental illness and access to guns. They want Congress to talk and stop bickering. They want them to stop the partisan splits and work together. They want to stop political contributions from the NRA. This issue runs very deep.

But yes, in the long run it is the adults in their lives that need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the way they raise their kids. It's also up to all adults to listen to what they are saying and not just keep failing to do so.

Edited February 19, 2018 by susieice

[Aquila King]

I don't understand why we need the secret service when we can protect the president with thoughts and prayers.

[+susieice]

3 minutes ago, susieice said:

There were a couple people killed about 30 miles from me by a man who was involuntarily committed for mental illness and got ahold of a gun belonging to his mother. Still waiting to hear if she will be charged. He also sold many he obtained on the streets. That's why those kids told Republicans they need to be there if they support changing laws on mental illness and access to guns. They want Congress to talk and stop bickering. They want them to stop the partisan splits and work together. They want to stop political contributions from the NRA. This issue runs very deep.

But yes, in the long run it is the adults in their lives that need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the way they raise their kids. It's also up to all adults to listen to what they are saying and not just keep failing to do so.

The people who took him into their home must have known something. Certainly the woman should have recognized the signs. From what I hear, she is a nurse. She should have seen something in his behavior, not because he was autistic. The woman he was staying with before made him leave because he chose to buy a gun. Will find the link for you.

 

[+susieice]

Yes. She was a nurse.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/18/nurse-who-took-in-shooter-cruz-was-this-monster-living-under-our-roof/

The gun dispute with the owner of his former home is here. The brother was taken into custody for an evaluation. I mentioned this before in one of my posts. Makes me think she wants to make sure the brother is alright.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/local/alleged-parkland-shooter-left-suburban-lantana-home-over-gun-dispute/NnRFpOjnkEGAh3K5wJ2m2I/

Edited February 19, 2018 by susieice

[Black Red Devil]

54 minutes ago, susieice said:

 

But yes, in the long run it is the adults in their lives that need to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the way they raise their kids. It's also up to all adults to listen to what they are saying and not just keep failing to do so.

But it's not only about adults taking responsibility for their kids is it?  The whole thing about better control over people with mental issues, taking meds etc sounds pretty wishy-washy to me and lacks any serious level of control don't you think?  I know you didn't mention it, just saying because it's one of the arguments pro-guns. There are millions of people in the US with mental issues and this without counting the ones that develop a state of anxiety or depression suddenly through circumstances in life (lost their jobs, their boyfriend/girlfriend, bankrupt etc etc.). How can any Govt control if people are taking their meds, that parents are raising their kids in a safe way that doesn't endanger others?  In the end it's a matter of reducing the weapons available to people when errors are made and someone flips.

Of course taking guns away from righteos citizens doesn't guarantee criminals won't get their hands on them.  But criminals usually kill criminals and don't mass murder schoolkids or innocent civilians.  Also and more importantly, Govt authorities know who most criminals are compared to someone randomly flipping.

[Likely Guy]

Not commenting directly at what anyone else here has said recently, but this beast has many legs.

If you choose to tackle just one of those legs, the effort is doomed to failure.

[+susieice]

1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

But it's not only about adults taking responsibility for their kids is it?  The whole thing about better control over people with mental issues, taking meds etc sounds pretty wishy-washy to me and lacks any serious level of control don't you think?  I know you didn't mention it, just saying because it's one of the arguments pro-guns. There are millions of people in the US with mental issues and this without counting the ones that develop a state of anxiety or depression suddenly through circumstances in life (lost their jobs, their boyfriend/girlfriend, bankrupt etc etc.). How can any Govt control if people are taking their meds, that parents are raising their kids in a safe way that doesn't endanger others?  In the end it's a matter of reducing the weapons available to people when errors are made and someone flips.

Of course taking guns away from righteos citizens doesn't guarantee criminals won't get their hands on them.  But criminals usually kill criminals and don't mass murder schoolkids or innocent civilians.  Also and more importantly, Govt authorities know who most criminals are compared to someone randomly flipping.

There are millions of responsible gun owners in the US who don't deserve to have their weapons confiscated. There never has been or ever will be a guarantee that someone who is mentally ill or under stress isn't going to get their hands on a weapon, of any type, even if they are secured. It isn't adults who are doing the school shootings, or criminals. This is their classmates, teenagers and younger, just like them. So watching and paying attention to the signs everyone keeps saying are there long before an incident happens is vital to help stop what is happening. Parents need to pay attention to their children. Both parents are working long hours at jobs just to make a living. It's hard to meet the demands of a job and the demands of raising teenagers. I think in my own humble opinion, this is a big part of the reason why this is happening so much now compared to when I was young. They were simpler times and mom was usually there when I got home. That is something that is impossible to have these days for economic reasons. But, kids need more than things. They need supervision, guidance and discipline when necessary. Since most of their day is spent in school, teachers need to be aware of the signals a troubled child is sending out. Mental illness needs to be dealt with instead of being overlooked or swept under a rug. As to medication, that should always be a last resort. Parents and teachers need to understand that teens can be under as much stress as they are. From what I'm reading now, it seems this Cruz kid came from a pretty dysfunctional background but not all of them did. When these signs are seen, the intervention needs to take place then, not after a tragedy occurs. I don't think I've seen a handful of shootings where, after the fact, all this stuff doesn't come out and everyone is saying "all the signs were there". You don't have to be mentally ill to be under so much stress you, as you said, snap. I hope I said this right.

[+susieice]

44 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

Not commenting directly at what anyone else here has said recently, but this beast has many legs.

If you choose to tackle just one of those legs, the effort is doomed to failure.

It sure does Likely! It's not just a gun issue. A person could get them anywhere if they are so inclined. There are so many things that influence a person's life. For a teen, the parents and the schools are the frontline of what they learn. But even then, you can't guarantee anything. Life does not run smoothly, for anyone. How do you see if someone is handling it well or that someone else isn't? You can't blame this solely on guns. My dad had guns. My ex had guns. I shot guns. My sons have guns. This is coming from a lot more angles than we are discussing here. Forget Congress! They can't constructively discuss anything!

[Likely Guy]

9 minutes ago, susieice said:

It sure does Likely! It's not just a gun issue. A person could get them anywhere if they are so inclined. There are so many things that influence a person's life. For a teen, the parents and the schools are the frontline of what they learn. But even then, you can't guarantee anything. Life does not run smoothly, for anyone. How do you see if someone is handling it well or that someone else isn't? You can't blame this solely on guns. My dad had guns. My ex had guns. I shot guns. My sons have guns. This is coming from a lot more angles than we are discussing here. Forget Congress! They can't constructively discuss anything!

I agree entirely.

But, my dear Susie, that is also one leg that some here refuse to discuss. It can't be ignored.

Edit: ...and be effective.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Likely Guy

[+susieice]

Now I see that Mr. Snead, who's house Cruz was living in, works in military intelligence. Mrs. Snead is a neo-natal nurse. Cruz told them he was going to inherit $800,000 when he turned 22. They say they've seen paperwork that seems to indicate this is true. The other articles I saw said his mother's house was sold on short sale by the bank and no one got anything. wth?

http://www.newsweek.com/nikolas-cruz-parents-florida-mass-shooting-parkland-810332

[Black Red Devil]

1 hour ago, susieice said:

There are millions of responsible gun owners in the US who don't deserve to have their weapons confiscated. There never has been or ever will be a guarantee that someone who is mentally ill or under stress isn't going to get their hands on a weapon, of any type, even if they are secured. It isn't adults who are doing the school shootings, or criminals. This is their classmates, teenagers and younger, just like them. So watching and paying attention to the signs everyone keeps saying are there long before an incident happens is vital to help stop what is happening. Parents need to pay attention to their children. Both parents are working long hours at jobs just to make a living. It's hard to meet the demands of a job and the demands of raising teenagers. I think in my own humble opinion, this is a big part of the reason why this is happening so much now compared to when I was young. They were simpler times and mom was usually there when I got home. That is something that is impossible to have these days for economic reasons. But, kids need more than things. They need supervision, guidance and discipline when necessary. Since most of their day is spent in school, teachers need to be aware of the signals a troubled child is sending out. Mental illness needs to be dealt with instead of being overlooked or swept under a rug. As to medication, that should always be a last resort. Parents and teachers need to understand that teens can be under as much stress as they are. From what I'm reading now, it seems this Cruz kid came from a pretty dysfunctional background but not all of them did. When these signs are seen, the intervention needs to take place then, not after a tragedy occurs. I don't think I've seen a handful of shootings where, after the fact, all this stuff doesn't come out and everyone is saying "all the signs were there". You don't have to be mentally ill to be under so much stress you, as you said, snap. I hope I said this right.

I think everyone would agree that you cannot eliminate the problem entirely. There will always be some level of accessibility to guns no matter what gun control system you have in place and no law and order will ever be able to monitor and control potential perpetrators from committing mad acts. You can only try to prevent these things from happening by reducing the risk. You say responsible gun owners shouldn't suffer the consequences but unless you have better and secure systems in place somethings gotta give don't you think? My opinion of course but the quickest preventitive solution is stricter gun control.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[F3SS]

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Also and more importantly, Govt authorities know who most criminals are compared to someone randomly flipping.

That sounds great but still wouldn’t matter. Look how many terrorists have struck and we come to find out they were known of already. Heck, this guy in Florida was known to be a loose cannon. He was reported to the fbi and still nothing stopped him. I feel like once somebody is reported to the fbi there isn’t much else one can do, family excluded. 

[Black Red Devil]

1 hour ago, F3SS said:

That sounds great but still wouldn’t matter. Look how many terrorists have struck and we come to find out they were known of already. Heck, this guy in Florida was known to be a loose cannon. He was reported to the fbi and still nothing stopped him. I feel like once somebody is reported to the fbi there isn’t much else one can do, family excluded. 

Definitely a failure on their behalf on paper.  The next question is do they have the numbers to fully monitor and analyze all individual cases reported to them?  You would have to think they would have dozens and dozens of reported suspects a day, including potential terrorists, common criminals, drug and mental related cases.  My guess is they wouldn’t have the numbers to thoroughly check and stakeout all reported individuals. Where somebody HAS been reported more than once, logic would suggest they WOULD monitor and analyze their behavior for a period of time and move onto the next case if nothing eventuates.  In a Business environment it’s called Risk Management where you implement a plan to do the best with the resources you can afford so to minimize (or eliminate in principle) the losses.  Same principle only one deals with money and the other with lives.

Anyway my understanding is he made a threatening comment on Youtube and they couldn’t identify the poster.  If you want to add harsh comments on Youtube to the FBI’s “to do” list then definitely you need a lot, LOT more FBI agents.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

8 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I would never be a politician because of blackmail fears. Said fears come from college friends, not Russian spies.

I would never be a politician because I possess a conscience.

[preacherman76]

7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

But it's not only about adults taking responsibility for their kids is it?  The whole thing about better control over people with mental issues, taking meds etc sounds pretty wishy-washy to me and lacks any serious level of control don't you think?  I know you didn't mention it, just saying because it's one of the arguments pro-guns. There are millions of people in the US with mental issues and this without counting the ones that develop a state of anxiety or depression suddenly through circumstances in life (lost their jobs, their boyfriend/girlfriend, bankrupt etc etc.). How can any Govt control if people are taking their meds, that parents are raising their kids in a safe way that doesn't endanger others?  In the end it's a matter of reducing the weapons available to people when errors are made and someone flips.

Of course taking guns away from righteos citizens doesn't guarantee criminals won't get their hands on them.  But criminals usually kill criminals and don't mass murder schoolkids or innocent civilians.  Also and more importantly, Govt authorities know who most criminals are compared to someone randomly flipping.

It isn’t that we need to find a way to make sure people take their meds, for God sake man. It’s that most of these people don’t need to be medicated. How does every other country get along without medicating half their population? 

[Black Red Devil]

51 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

It isn’t that we need to find a way to make sure people take their meds, for God sake man. It’s that most of these people don’t need to be medicated. How does every other country get along without medicating half their population? 

The same way as in the US I suppose, the difference is Preacher, when they flip here, in extreme cases they might grab a knife and hurt a family member, neighbor or in the end out of desperation hurt themselves.  They don't have the "luxury" of a semiautomatic at the reach of their fingertips.

[+ouija ouija]

I hear a lot about responsible gun owners keeping their guns locked up and I understand that if you have guns for 'sport' you would only unlock your guns when you were going hunting. My question is, if you have a gun for defence why would you keep it locked up? Surely you would keep it somewhere handy so that if your home was invaded you could grab it quickly? Anyone living in the same home would likely know where the gun was ..... including angsty teens and small kids. I realise that the majority of people don't keep the same gun as Cruz used for defence of their home, I'm only mentioning it because it seems to me that there will always be millions of guns 'lying around' as long as U.S. citizens insist on being allowed to arm themselves.   

[aztek]

2 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

I hear a lot about responsible gun owners keeping their guns locked up and I understand that if you have guns for 'sport' you would only unlock your guns when you were going hunting. My question is, if you have a gun for defence why would you keep it locked up? Surely you would keep it somewhere handy so that if your home was invaded you could grab it quickly? Anyone living in the same home would likely know where the gun was ..... including angsty teens and small kids. I realise that the majority of people don't keep the same gun as Cruz used for defence of their home, I'm only mentioning it because it seems to me that there will always be millions of guns 'lying around' as long as U.S. citizens insist on being allowed to arm themselves.   

fingerprint lock, unlocks in a second or so.  i have 1 safe like that,  with kids in a house you want to keep them locked, with no kids, it's a different story

[aztek]

https://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmccullough/2018/02/18/how-to-eliminate-school-shootings-overnight-n2450380

[Dark_Grey]

2 hours ago, aztek said:

fingerprint lock, unlocks in a second or so.  

Exactly. It's a good balance between convenience and security. I will be adding my wife's print to my safe when it arrives - no sense in her being unable to access the weapon just because I'm not home. Gun security has come a long way

[Lilly]

Just to add, people who have a gun for home security generally have a hand gun. People who have a gun for sport generally have a hunting rifle. Most people do not have (nor do they need) automatic weapons like an AR-15. Personally, the guns I'd like to put stricter control on are the automatic weapons. 

That said, we still need all the other common sense changes to school security that have been mentioned already.