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Gun Control ?


docyabut2

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Sorry folks, but that is a bit of a game-changer for me.

Seems like the preppers were right. 

 

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13 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Like so many have said in this thread, NOBODY WANTS TO TAKE ALL YOUR GUNS! ( I used all caps as you all seem to like them:) Just some common sense. Why can't some of you understand this?

Just like, IF YOU LIKE YOUR DOCTOR, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR DOCTOR.  Common sense is that the government lies.  The Progressives have been trying to take our guns for a long time.  Obama was trying an end-run with banning ammo and Obamacare.  Universal healthcare wasn’t focused on maintaining the health of the people.  It was a mechanism put in place to control the population.  That kind of control may work well in Europe and elsewhere, but not here.  Why can’t some of you understand this?  Europe is already the SS Axiom and it has sprung a leak at the waterline.  The leak is called Hijrah and nobody knows what to do.  I have been in the presence of Michelangelo’s David.  Anyone here that has seen it in person, knows of the overcoming of emotion that occurs.  To think that it will no longer exist in 50 years is heart breaking.  In 200 years, St Peter’s will be the grandest mosque since the Hagia Sophia.  People may some day go visit the Eiffel Minaret.  We lose the 2nd, and people will travel to the capital city of Mohammed to see Washington’s Minaret and go pray in the Capitol Mosque.

 

It's like you have a default mode that automatically goes to worst case scenarios.

It’s because human nature always goes to worst case scenarios.  It is rarely a gush but one little step at a time.  That awareness is what the Founding Fathers gave us.  We’re not about to betray that trust.

 

What's wrong with better firearms education? Whats wrong with mandatory firearms education classes.

Nothing wrong with this at all.  I’ve been proposing this.  It is true that most of us do not practice the full 2nd Amendment.  And our natural rights are like muscles and all muscles need to be exercised.  I’ve based my proposal on Washington’s quote.  That basically everyone should offer some kind of obligation back to society for living in a nation that protects our rights.  As I’ve stated before, education can begin in elementary school where children learn to respect life and guns.  Then in junior high, they begin gun safety courses and learn to shoot in PE.  Then by high school they are exercising their rights and proficiency (getting stronger).  Learning about our history and the Constitution and what it all means.  Finally, offering a two year obligation after graduation in a militia or as I’ve termed it, a Peace Corps with teeth.  To deal with domestic disaster and need (“the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency”).  While in this Corps, they will further their education and learn discipline, first aid plus, rescue, building, even be used for border patrol.  The possibilities are endless.  When they complete their term of service, they can go on to college or the military, or even vocational.  They might have been influenced by saving lives, they go into the health profession.  Or construction, etc.  But by engaging the youth in such a way, we reduce suicides and destructive escapism.  And they learn patriotism and duty.

 

What's wrong with universal mental background checks?

You want to know what is wrong with that.  It is subjective.  We all blow off steam and it can be verbally intense at times, but that doesn’t mean we are going to go out and kill someone.  Obamacare would have been very insidious about this.  Doctors are always asking their patients “how are you feeling?”  A person is supposed to feel comfortable enough to tell the doctor what is on their mind.  If it is negative, doctors were required to codify the response.  These reports would have been sent to the department of health, where they would be culled, looking for trends, etc.  It would be determined that a certain few would be considered a danger to themselves and others, strictly on nothing more than a subjective coding.  And that info would end up on a ban list somewhere.  The thing is, is that eventually everyone would end up on that list.  Then the government under the guise of public health would make periodic raids to remove guns.  It would all be legal.  The only course of action for the people would be an armed revolt.  The thing is, is that it would be all too subtle.  The people wouldn’t be aware of the con being foisted on them.  Well, they did this time.  That is why Trump was elected.  It was the same reason for Brexit.  Socialism and social engineering can only push the people so far before they fight back.

 

What’s needed is that when someone starts to act out in aggression to pull them aside and evaluate them.  No need to do universal background checks for mental stability.  A person who is losing it will give off signs long before they decide to start shooting.  One way to prevent someone from acting out is having a moral nation.  We are falling away from GOD and when a people do that, they begin to lose hope.  And that eggs on the hypocrisy.  We lose perspective.  Over a million children die per year in this country from all causes.  That means over a million lives do not reach their potential.  Perhaps 100 or a bit more die from mass shootings?  We are wasting our time trying to attack the 2nd Amendment to prevent such a small number compared to other causes of death.  Teen suicide is far worse and yet here, if they didn’t have a gun, they would still seek other means to kill themselves.  Hanging and OD are getting to be more popular than guns.  These kids have lost hope.  They have no moral guidance.  When you bring in the millions that are killed by abortion every year, kids see that.  They see millions that aren’t allowed to reach their full potential.  And they end up with survivor’s guilt.  Why should they get to live?  More children are killed from abortion than mass shootings.  Then the Progressives exploit their pain and confusion to grab guns.  Kids intuitively understand that they are being used and that doesn’t help with the outcome.  The Progressives are running a full-press and they need to be resisted at all costs.  They will never give up and so our resolve should be just as intense.

 

I have stated on several occasions that our natural rights are more precious than our lives.  To which, the response is to think that we love our guns more than our children.  And that is the complete opposite.  Our rights are a precious gift.  It is up to us to pass them on to our children.  That is hardly an act of someone who loves their guns more than their children.  No, that response is from the mindset that simply does not understand what it means.  Freedom is not something that is passed on through the bloodstream, but each generation must fight for it and sacrifice in order to preserve it for their children.  That is what the world does not understand.  For generations, they have lived under governments that take their rights from them, one little piece after another without realizing it.  The day is coming when perhaps not their grandchildren but their grandchildren’s grandchildren will stand up and say “enough!”  Then they will realize why their rights are more important than their lives and will do everything in their power to achieve freedom.  Then they will institute a new government with proper limitations and will fear for their descendants and hope and pray they do not forget the lesson.

 

You don't just want your cake, you want the whole damm bakery.

You’re damn right!

 

It's going to happen sooner or later whether you like it or not. You are a minority and last time I checked majority rules.

We are not a democracy.  We are a ConstitutionalRepublic, ruled by law, not the mob.  It is true that especially at local levels, we use democratic principles but it is designed to control mob rule via the representative.  That way, if he doesn’t do what the people want then only he needs worry about being tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.  We had an event where the mob ruled and the 18th Amendment was passed.  After about 13 years, they saw the folly of it and appealed it in the 21st Amendment.  This gave us a very good lesson in the extremes of democracy.  That is why it takes ¾ of states to ratify an Amendment.  That’s why a direct modification of the 2nd or any other will not happen.  But we can’t sit back and always assume that will be the case.  That is why the Progressives have not quit trying other methods.  They have tried to control academia, the MSM, and immigration and yet there will always be enough Patriots that will step forward to thwart their conspiracy.

 

So try and keep my capped statement lodged in your brains so that we can move foreward because this stalemate is really stupid.

We don’t keep such statements in our brains, we keep ideas.  We keep meaning and intent.  And purpose.  We keep Freedom alive.  Anything that takes one iota from our rights is not a move forward, but backward into darkness and tyranny.  But of course, you do not understand that.  How could you?  You’ve never tasted true freedom.

 

If wheat were planted in the furrows you fellows make digging in your heels, there would be a glut of bread on the market.

You have the right idea, but it’s not wheat but Freedom.

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2 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

We are wasting our time trying to attack the 2nd Amendment to prevent such a small number compared to other causes of death. 

Same argument I make about the war on terror. 

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1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Interesting to hear this coming from NPR (National Public Radio) which is normally more left-leaning:

“On March 15, NPR noted the heinous nature of Florida’s Parkland school shooting but quickly added that claims school shootings are at epidemic levels are false.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/16/npr-florida-school-shooting-heinous-no-epidemic/

If one person a year dies from whatever, then in the next year, there where 2, that would be a 100% increase.  That would be an epidemic.  That is what these Progressives are trying to do.

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8 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Same argument I make about the war on terror. 

Except, every teenager isn’t using a gun to mow down their peers.  At least 74% of Muslims are waging this battle of terror at some level.  And for most, it really isn’t the Muslim but the doctrine that drives the fight.  It is a leaderless cause.  Just as most Europeans are not aware that they really don’t have true freedom (just the freedom their government grants them), most Muslims are not aware that they are carriers of a bad degenerative ideology.  This is the norm for them.  I’m not saying that we are immune, but we are aware.  All that means is that we are going to sit here and watch this madness engulf the world and at some point we are going to get dragged into it.  We had an opportunity to quell it, but politics lost the initiative.  We await the Coq to ruin the Camel.  I’ve been waiting for a European to rise up to that role, but perhaps it is the American Eagle this time?  Could the symbology be that close?  But after this, we will all live in peace for a time, until the next time.  Until then everyone will freely hang their firearm on the mantle above the fireplace.  And one in each closet.  And one in each car.  And one under each bed, etc.  And everyone will learn and know the importance of faith and respect.  And when people violate those, they will be severely punished.  But for that to happen, things are going to have to get very ugly before we learn the lesson.

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Just now, RavenHawk said:

Except, every teenager isn’t using a gun to mow down their peers. 

As Vegas and the TX church massacre have shown teenagers aren't the only ones mowing folks down.

Hell we have a serious problem with the rise of white supremacists which unfortunately are often embedded with the militia movement and 2nd amendment type folks so its of course not getting any media coverage from those who usually hyperventilate on TV about "terrorism" 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

As Vegas and the TX church massacre have shown teenagers aren't the only ones mowing folks down.

And yet, it is but a fraction of all deaths from all causes.  We would do better to ban cancer.

 

Hell we have a serious problem with the rise of white supremacists which unfortunately are often embedded with the militia movement and 2nd amendment type folks so its of course not getting any media coverage from those who usually hyperventilate on TV about "terrorism" 

We don’t have a rise of white supremacy.  We have a rise in hateful anti-white male and anti-Constitution types that push the fantasy of White Privilege.  Not getting any media coverage??  What do you think the MSM does day in and day out, when they are attacking Trump?!

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7 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

We don’t have a rise of white supremacy.  We have a rise in hateful anti-white male and anti-Constitution types that push the fantasy of White Privilege.  Not getting any media coverage??  What do you think the MSM does day in and day out, when they are attacking Trump?!

Dude you sir are an awesome wingman. Look at you swooping in and making my point for me. 

 

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2 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Here's the thing.

I think we should be doing what we can to keep guns out of schools and keeping them away from crazy people. 

That's a given.

However, it does make me nervous when you have a situation where a hostile foreign power is sitting on our power grid, our nuclear power plants, and our water. 

If they wanted to, they could make the **** hit the fan right quick. 

In that sort of scenario, it would be good to be armed. And maybe even with an AR-15.

It's just a thought.

It could be true what they say...you don't need them until you need them. 

Sigh... Getting real sick and tired of the whole 'Russia' paranoia on the left. Now it's spilling over into gun control. It's turning democrats even more conservative such as with issues like this. I realize this might be better suited in the Russia thread, but now this issue sorta ties in here so I think I'll respond here for the time being.

Here's the real thing.

Did Russia create troll farms so as to influence the outcome of our election for their own political gain? Yes. Could there possibly be some sort of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia? Yes there could. How much collusion and to what extent? I don't know. That's up to Bob Mueller to decide. And to be honest, I really don't care.

In my personal opinion, I think the idea that Trump is a straight-up Russian Manchurian candidate is most likely an exaggeration. If anything, there's likely some kind of business dealings he has in Russia which would influence his actions in the oval office. That's a serious issue no doubt, but I don't think that's on the level of outright treason.

Don't get me wrong, that is undoubtedly a major issue. But it's an issue that if it did truly happen, then there really isn't much we could do about it apart from essentially starting World War III by going to war with the second largest super power in the world. We already have pretty much the maximum amount of sanctions the US can have against Russia. What do so many democrats expect us to do when they keep saying "something has to be done about this?" Do what? Go to war? Now you're suggesting that we should maybe allow AR-15's so as to protect against a potential fallout due to the Russian threat. Do you not see how this is becoming more and more conservative here?

The way I see it is, this Russia investigation is being handled by Bob Mueller, and for the most part we the American people know little to no details regarding the investigation, as it should be. That's how an FBI investigation works. We have very few details and it's being handled by the FBI, so there's not much sense in arguing about it on either side.

The establishment democratic corporate media outlets such as CNN and MSNBC, etc. are only showing non-stop coverage of this Russia investigation primarily because they refuse to tackle the real core issues that affect the lives of the American people. You'll never see them tackling any issues such as increased levels of poverty in the US, a broken healthcare system where tens of thousands of people die every year due to lack of coverage and millions more go sick or bankrupt, how millionaires and billionaires and big corporations are able to legally bribe politicians for political influence through massive 'campaign contributions', extreme income and wealth inequality where the top one-tenth of 1% of people posses more wealth then the entire rest of the US population, why we spend more on the military than then the next 12 largest military countries combined, and how we're currently bombing 8 different countries with literally no direct threat to the US homeland (and therefore essentially we're attacking them for no reason)... I mean the list here could go on and on.

There are a million and one different things the establishment democratic media could go after Trump on, but they don't, and they won't, because they themselves are beholden to the same corrupt corporations that buy out politicians and who pay their bill through advertisements. The corporate media doesn't want these issues addressed, because it hurts their profits. They'd rather just focus on Trump saying insulting remarks and using foul language here and there, and otherwise play non-stop incessant coverage of this Russia investigation to which they have very little details over.

I genuinely like and respect you for your ability to see through the Trump BS Rose, but it's sad that half the time I see you on here commenting on something political, it has to do with this Russia investigation paranoia. :hmm: And now with this latest comment on arming ourselves with AR-15's so as to protect ourselves from a foreign power, I'm starting to think all of this Russia stuff is getting to people's heads. As someone who sees Trump for who he truly is, you could be making so many stronger arguments against Trump on here, other than "He colluded with Russia", such as how literally his first military strike as president killed an 8 year old American girl, or how his Republican tax bill raises taxes on the middle class steadily over the span of ten years all while giving a massive tax cut on the wealthiest individuals, etc. etc.

The fact is, this argument about whether or not Trump colluded with the Russians just doesn't resonate with the working class worker who's factory job was shipped overseas, or the middle class mother who's child died because they couldn't afford basic healthcare, or the minimum wage worker who works two full time jobs with no vacations and barely any sleep just to barely squeeze by to put food on the table for their kids. Whether Russia is a serious issue or not, if that's our main argument against Trump, then we're gonna lose the next election. I guarantee it.

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4 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

 

We don’t have a rise of white supremacy.  We have a rise in hateful anti-white male and anti-Constitution types that push the fantasy of White Privilege.  Not getting any media coverage??  What do you think the MSM does day in and day out, when they are attacking Trump?!

 

My God, how will we survive?

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6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

I have stated on several occasions that our natural rights are more precious than our lives.  

And I demonstrated that "natural" rights are a figment of your imagination and that there is no such thing. 

 

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

You’ve never tasted true freedom.

 

And you repeatedly mention this, claiming you are allowed to do things that I for example can't.  I'm really curious to know what these things are...

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8 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Sigh... Getting real sick and tired of the whole 'Russia' paranoia on the left. Now it's spilling over into gun control. It's turning democrats even more conservative such as with issues like this. I realize this might be better suited in the Russia thread, but now this issue sorta ties in here so I think I'll respond here for the time being.

Here's the real thing.

Did Russia create troll farms so as to influence the outcome of our election for their own political gain? Yes. Could there possibly be some sort of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia? Yes there could. How much collusion and to what extent? I don't know. That's up to Bob Mueller to decide. And to be honest, I really don't care.

In my personal opinion, I think the idea that Trump is a straight-up Russian Manchurian candidate is most likely an exaggeration. If anything, there's likely some kind of business dealings he has in Russia which would influence his actions in the oval office. That's a serious issue no doubt, but I don't think that's on the level of outright treason.

Don't get me wrong, that is undoubtedly a major issue. But it's an issue that if it did truly happen, then there really isn't much we could do about it apart from essentially starting World War III by going to war with the second largest super power in the world. We already have pretty much the maximum amount of sanctions the US can have against Russia. What do so many democrats expect us to do when they keep saying "something has to be done about this?" Do what? Go to war? Now you're suggesting that we should maybe allow AR-15's so as to protect against a potential fallout due to the Russian threat. Do you not see how this is becoming more and more conservative here?

The way I see it is, this Russia investigation is being handled by Bob Mueller, and for the most part we the American people know little to no details regarding the investigation, as it should be. That's how an FBI investigation works. We have very few details and it's being handled by the FBI, so there's not much sense in arguing about it on either side.

The establishment democratic corporate media outlets such as CNN and MSNBC, etc. are only showing non-stop coverage of this Russia investigation primarily because they refuse to tackle the real core issues that affect the lives of the American people. You'll never see them tackling any issues such as increased levels of poverty in the US, a broken healthcare system where tens of thousands of people die every year due to lack of coverage and millions more go sick or bankrupt, how millionaires and billionaires and big corporations are able to legally bribe politicians for political influence through massive 'campaign contributions', extreme income and wealth inequality where the top one-tenth of 1% of people posses more wealth then the entire rest of the US population, why we spend more on the military than then the next 12 largest military countries combined, and how we're currently bombing 8 different countries with literally no direct threat to the US homeland (and therefore essentially we're attacking them for no reason)... I mean the list here could go on and on.

There are a million and one different things the establishment democratic media could go after Trump on, but they don't, and they won't, because they themselves are beholden to the same corrupt corporations that buy out politicians and who pay their bill through advertisements. The corporate media doesn't want these issues addressed, because it hurts their profits. They'd rather just focus on Trump saying insulting remarks and using foul language here and there, and otherwise play non-stop incessant coverage of this Russia investigation to which they have very little details over.

I genuinely like and respect you for your ability to see through the Trump BS Rose, but it's sad that half the time I see you on here commenting on something political, it has to do with this Russia investigation paranoia. :hmm: And now with this latest comment on arming ourselves with AR-15's so as to protect ourselves from a foreign power, I'm starting to think all of this Russia stuff is getting to people's heads. As someone who sees Trump for who he truly is, you could be making so many stronger arguments against Trump on here, other than "He colluded with Russia", such as how literally his first military strike as president killed an 8 year old American girl, or how his Republican tax bill raises taxes on the middle class steadily over the span of ten years all while giving a massive tax cut on the wealthiest individuals, etc. etc.

The fact is, this argument about whether or not Trump colluded with the Russians just doesn't resonate with the working class worker who's factory job was shipped overseas, or the middle class mother who's child died because they couldn't afford basic healthcare, or the minimum wage worker who works two full time jobs with no vacations and barely any sleep just to barely squeeze by to put food on the table for their kids. Whether Russia is a serious issue or not, if that's our main argument against Trump, then we're gonna lose the next election. I guarantee it.

We already "allow" AR-15s.

And this isn't even really about Trump.

It's about DHS telling us that Russia hacked and could shut down our power grid, water, and mess with our nuclear power plants...at will.

Right now.

You know they announced that, right? 

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12 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

We have a rise in hateful anti-white male and anti-Constitution types

You know what? As a white male, I could give a care less. I just keep doing my best at what I do, and I get recognized for it. If I get held down by legislation, or bias, or quotas... What am I going to do? I'm going to try harder and beat that ****. I have no need to demand help from the government, because I believe in myself and I make what I want happen. That isn't white privilege, it is believing in yourself, and having good self esteem. Something those who demand protection don't always have. Some say having good self esteem is white privilege. To which I say, tough. Grow up and make your life happen, don't sit and wait for it to be made to happen for you. (not to be taken as attacking Raven, but as attacking the stupid "baby sitter" mentality of today.)

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18 hours ago, aztek said:

no, we actually worry about people living today,  they are removing guns now for years, slowly , type by type. location by location,  those who do not live here have no idea it happens, those who do and own no guns have no idea about either, it's not in the news

True, but they are not calling that a Ban, they are calling Restrictions. Eventually they will get to using the word Ban. That is when we will start to have to fear Tyranny.

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4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

True, but they are not calling that a Ban, they are calling Restrictions. 

they will never call it a ban, or confiscation,  but restriction, some limitation, certain condition, so this way little by little, until there is nothing left, .............that is how they will solve gun crime, lol at least that is what they think, but not all guns are registered, many are not so those gun will not be restrictd out of existence, illegal guns will stay, more black market guns will come in to compensate for lost ones to laws, people will always care more for their safety, than a law, most try to follow law but when laws outright endanger them people will brake them. 

99% or more of those guns confiscated from aka restricted from,  law abiding citizens, would not be used in crimes anyway,  who exactly do they think they are disarming

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12 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

My God, how will we survive?

If it goes similar to the last time this type of Marxist ideology gained momentum, most of us wont.

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7 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

We already "allow" AR-15s.

And this isn't even really about Trump.

It's about DHS telling us that Russia hacked and could shut down our power grid, water, and mess with our nuclear power plants...at will.

Right now.

You know they announced that, right? 

Yep. This is brought to us by the same people who told us Saddam had nukes.

Its so obvious they want a war with Russia that its just sickening. They will say and do anything to make the public think we need to.  

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5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

You know what? As a white male, I could give a care less. I just keep doing my best at what I do, and I get recognized for it. If I get held down by legislation, or bias, or quotas... What am I going to do? I'm going to try harder and beat that ****. I have no need to demand help from the government, because I believe in myself and I make what I want happen. That isn't white privilege, it is believing in yourself, and having good self esteem. Something those who demand protection don't always have. Some say having good self esteem is white privilege. To which I say, tough. Grow up and make your life happen, don't sit and wait for it to be made to happen for you. (not to be taken as attacking Raven, but as attacking the stupid "baby sitter" mentality of today.)

Of course you will. For the most part that has been the spirit of our culture.

Personally I don't care much about what they say either, right up till they tell me my children should have been aborted, and that I am the cause of all earthy evil. When folks start talking like that, it usually isn't long before they see it as a moral obligation to exterminate. Its happened many times. It will happen again. That be the case I very much do care.

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3 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Yep. This is brought to us by the same people who told us Saddam had nukes.

Its so obvious they want a war with Russia that its just sickening. They will say and do anything to make the public think we need to.  

Here's the report.

You want to believe the Russians over our own Homeland Security, that's on you.

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A

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18 hours ago, Torchwood said:

And I demonstrated that "natural" rights are a figment of your imagination and that there is no such thing.

I don’t recall you did.  You’ll have to help me out with a reference?  If you think natural rights are a figment of imagination, you need to spend sometime researching the writers of the Age of Enlightenment.  They would put you to shame.

 

And you repeatedly mention this, claiming you are allowed to do things that I for example can't.  I'm really curious to know what these things are...

Well, the right to bear arms.  You can’t or it is highly restricted.  We can.  I can go to any gun store right now and purchase one without a back ground check and without someone giving me a weird look.  that would be the ultimate litmus test of how free one is.  You also have hate speech laws for things that are just someone’s opinion based in truth.  It’s worse than the PC police here.  At least here it is not the government doing it.  Not yet anyway.  But to my claim, I guess you didn’t catch my post??  It’s here #179.  It very clearly demonstrates the real main difference.

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4 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Here's the report.

You want to believe the Russians over our own Homeland Security, that's on you.

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A

I can show you the report that said Saddam had a mobile nuclear van that he was driving around making uranium with. Didn’t make it so, but there was all kinds of reports. 

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15 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

It's about DHS telling us that Russia hacked and could shut down our power grid, water, and mess with our nuclear power plants...at will.

And you don’t think we are capable of the same thing?  It’s called deterrence or MAD 2.0.

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15 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

We already "allow" AR-15s.

But my point is we shouldn't. You're arguing that we should, which goes against common sense progressive policies here.

My entire point is that this Russia paranoia is giving democrats like yourself incredibly conservative war-hawkish types of positions like the ones you've just described.

15 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

And this isn't even really about Trump.

It's about DHS telling us that Russia hacked and could shut down our power grid, water, and mess with our nuclear power plants...at will.

Right now.

You know they announced that, right? 

Dear mother of God, and you believe that nonsense? I mean seriously, this is some Alex Jones level conspiracy theory BS. (only reason Alex Jones doesn't believe that is cause he's all hot and bothered by Trump all the time anyway) I haven't heard that from anywhere in the slightest, so if the DHS truly did say that, then this Trump-Russia conspiracy stuff has undoubtedly gone completely off the rails.

I challenge you to actually back that up with something. Cite sources. Don't just say 'according to the DHS' or CIA or whatever other US intelligence agency. I honestly don't trust them worth a lick a salt. Do something to bolster your claim beyond 'the DHS/CIA/FBI etc. says so'.

It's like democrats want to forget that these are the same exact intelligence agencies that overwhelmingly concluded that Saddam was the mastermind behind 9/11, and that Iraq had Nuclear Weapons. They're the same agencies that have literally carried out torture and pushed for an illegal war against a country that didn't attack us which killed a minimum of 200,000 innocent civilians in the process. They have been objectively proven to have either cherry-picked, exaggerated, and/or flat-out lied about serious Intel numerous times in the past. Forgive me if I don't trust hardly a word they say.

Look, all we know so far, is that the Kremlin set up Russian internet troll farms that would use social media to try and bolster support for Trump, or rather, opposition against Hillary Clinton. Furthermore, according to the CIA (which again, I don't trust them worth a single s**t) the Russian government leaked information to Wikileaks, which then leaked the DNC emails between them and the Clinton campaign which reveals damaging info on Hillary Clinton.

The thing is though, that information should have been leaked. Those leaks contained facts that were damaging about the corrupt DNC colluding with the Clinton campaign to get her elected as opposed to Bernie Sanders, it's not like they were slanderous lies. Not to mention while it is true that Russia shouldn't be meddling in our election through troll farms on social media, that isn't the same thing as tampering with the vote tallies. (which btw, please don't tell me you believe that nonsense as well. There's absolutely no evidence of that conspiracy either)

What Robert Mueller has so far gotten Trump campaign officials on has to do with illegal financial dealings with the Russian government. I suspect the same is true with Donald Trump himself. If you want to argue that there's most likely some sort of corrupt business ties between Donald Trump and the Russian government, then by all means, I'd fully agree. I personally suspect that there's most likely some sort of corrupt money laundering or whatever else, which would influence Trump's political actions so as to benefit his personal businesses. That wouldn't surprise me at all. However to suggest that the Russian government has inserted a Manchurian candidate, and that we've essentially been fully taken over by the Russian government is nonsensical conspiracy theory fear mongering on the level of the illuminati.

I mean seriously, out of all the million and one strong and legitimate arguments to be made against Donald Trump, why do so many democrats insist on using this conspiracy crap? You have one of the most corrupt, idiotic, and immoral presidents in American history in the oval office, and you want to use some made up conspiracy as an argument against the dude? It all smells of establishment dems using any available arguments they can (even if that means blatantly making s**t up) so as to not address the real policy issues that make his presidency suck as much as it does. I hate that I'm actually appearing as though I'm defending Trump here, but for God sakes I actually give a damn about the facts as to why I despise Trump. I'm not just gonna use any ol' available argument against him like some partisan political hack. You're smarter than this Rose. It's truly a shame...

(Which btw, there's nothing personal here, you're still a good friend to me. Just a minor disagreement, I hope you know.)

Anyway, that's all I'll say here in this thread regarding the Trump-Russia debate. If you want to continue this then mention me using @Aquila King in the Russia thread.

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6 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Here's the report.

You want to believe the Russians over our own Homeland Security, that's on you.

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A

Thanks for linking the report. Just now seeing it after writing the book above.

I'll be sure to check it out more thoroughly at some point and get back to you on that.

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15 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Thanks for linking the report. Just now seeing it after writing the book above.

I'll be sure to check it out more thoroughly at some point and get back to you on that.

Yeah, I'm just saying that if someone was keeping a gun just in case of a SHTF event, that report does not indicate that they were being silly. 

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