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Gun Control ?


docyabut2

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14 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

The common link is the desire to kill the weak.  It doesn't have to be guns and if it's not a gun, it will be something else?  The increase of attacks isn't because guns are accessible.  Guns have always been accessible.  What it is, is that society has gotten sicker because we have drifted from GOD.  If you don't like GOD, then try morals, or even spirituality.  When people have that sense of respect, there is no desire to kill others.

Firstly, it isn't people killing the weak. It's people killing the innocent.

I would even go as far as saying the weaker members in society often become the shooter. It's a power grab.

Secondly countries with higher levels of Athiesm don't have these issues. So this is not about God.

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14 hours ago, Why not said:

I own many guns and I'm very pro 2nd Amendment. I also believe there shoul be stricker laws on buying guns. To a point.

The big problem in all this is mentally unstable kids wanting attention and trying to one up each other. The TV media and social media play a HUGE part of this problem. If kids were running cars into crowds of school kids and the media reported it the way they do with guns, you would have mentally unstable kids trying to one up the last one for the (glory).

We didn't have this problem back in the 70's, 80's and much of the 90's because of the media attention. Don't get me wrong, there have always be problems here and there but, this incident happened because this little b****** wanted the media hype and social media attention.

I have said to my wife for many years that if the media did not plaster the picture of these Demond's all over TV for weeks and refused to give their name (just age and other problems they may have had) some of this would not have happened. This atrocities is a prime example of copy cat  attention wanting.

I hope rotting in an isolation cell is what it's all cracked up to be for this kid.

I agree this is part of the problem. Personally I will always refer to the shooter as the shooter. That is as much as I am willing to give them. They are not human enough to be worthy of a name in my eyes.

I will mention the names of victims, talk about thier age, thier dreams, thier unfulfilled potential.

But the shooter is nothing and deserves nothing.

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14 hours ago, Why not said:

They need to blame someone and the NRA is always their target.

Why is a gun lobbying group even involved in Government? I have the same question as to Why is a pharmaceutical group involved in government?

To me having a gun lobbying group that can and does influence policy to the point where the cdc is not allowed to do research on the effectiveness of gun control. (Which to me looks like a political entity with an obviois conflict of interest) is ludicrous. 

From where I am, seeing the influence of a gun lobby group is as damaging to the true structure of politics as religious influence, and pharmacutical company influence.

The role of government is the protection of the people for the people. To ensure health safety and prosperity for as many as they can. Not to submit to groups who hold power.

 

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8 hours ago, Setton said:

 

Simple question for both of you then:

Why don't people use these other weapons in countries where guns are controlled? 

I think a better question is why don't people use these weapons in countries where gun control is vilified?

Simple answer is, because they like guns.

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3 hours ago, aztek said:

you are not gonna have your gun checked ever if no one knows you have one, just like it is the case with millions of gang members and felons who have them illegally

Guns that are found on properties where illegal activities are taking place, or involved in crimes, or are unregistered are siezed and destroyed. This means that legal and responsible gun ownership goes up and illegal irresponsible ownership goes down.

I understand I am simplifying the issue and it bigger than that.

But seriously, limit gun sales, simplfy the rules around purchase. If a person is registered as too mentally ill to work. Then they shouldn't get a gun. Make the background checks universal with an easy to use system that red flags people properly.

Make sure Doctors, schools and mental health proffesionals have the correct protocols in place to add information to the register.

The solution to the problem is more good guys with guns and less bad guys with guns. Start identifying the good guys(register) and don't let the bad guys get or keep guns. This way you have more good guys with guns.

 

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Just now, Kismit said:

Guns that are found on properties where illegal activities are taking place, or involved in crimes, or are unregistered are siezed and destroyed. This means that legal and responsible gun ownership goes up and illegal irresponsible ownership goes down.

 

 

lol, no it absolutely does not mean that,  it is very naive to think so,.  think drug trade, 1 shipment busted 50 more get in somewhere, so the bust did nothing to usefully decrease amount of drugs on the streets,. same with guns,.

there are many gun laws in usa and i'm sure every aspect you claim needs new law, is already covered.  people who follow laws, and do not commit crimes do not need to be subjected to more restrictions. 

Edited by aztek
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7 minutes ago, aztek said:

lol, no it absolutely does not mean that,  it is very naive to think so,.  think drug trade, 1 shipment busted 50 more get in somewhere, so the bust did nothing to usefully decrease amount of drugs on the streets,. same with guns,.

there are many gun laws in usa and i'm sure every aspect you claim needs new law, is already covered.  people who follow laws, and do not commit crimes do not need to be subjected to more restrictions. 

There is a big difference between ilegally manufactured drugs and legally manufactured guns, which are traceble from build to sale and on sale.

They are different issues.

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Just now, Kismit said:

There is a big difference between ilegally manufactured drugs and legally manufactured guns, which are traceble from build to sale and on sale.

They are different issues.

there is absolutely nothing different about them as far as black market goes, as far as supplying criminals goes.  serial gets filed off, and gun becomes untraceable , some guns do not have serials to begin with

Edited by aztek
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6 minutes ago, aztek said:

lol, no it absolutely does not mean that,  it is very naive to think so,.  think drug trade, 1 shipment busted 50 more get in somewhere, so the bust did nothing to usefully decrease amount of drugs on the streets,. same with guns,.

If one shipment gets busted...that is one less shipment...it does not equate to a  extra 50 shipments which were not going to try and get through initially. 

Eg: 51 shipments of drugs on it way, one gets busted, 50  get in. 

But that is still one less shipment. Although it has not stopped the drug trade, it is still one less. 

If the same is applied to guns, then it has not stopped all the guns getting through, but that one shipment stopped could still be saving lives. 

What do you suggest.....do not stop any illegal guns getting through? 

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3 minutes ago, aztek said:

there is absolutely nothing different about them as far as black market goes, as far as supplying criminals goes. 

Drugs can be manufactured in a motel room, guns can not.

That's the realism of the drug problem.

if border security is an issue tighten up those laws too.

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Just now, freetoroam said:

 

But that is still one less shipment. Although it has not stopped the drug trade, it is still one less. 

 

so what?, it has absolutely no impact on drug trade. 

 

Just now, Kismit said:

Drugs can be manufactured in a motel room, guns can not.

That's the realism of the drug problem.

actually they can be and very often are.

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My friend brought up a good point, in the 80's it was all about assassinations or assassination attempts. That's what the mentally ill, looking for notoriety person was doing. Seeing it on the news and in movies glorified it and they wanted to generate media attention. Ever since Columbine it's been school shootings...again exacerbated by media (And I include Hollywood and their ever growing need to pronounce their opinions) attention. 

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3 minutes ago, aztek said:

so what?, it has absolutely no impact on drug trade. 

 

actually they can be and very often are.

Built up from parts purchased legally or rebuilds? Because you shouldn't be able to make one of these 

https://goo.gl/images/QKQqy1

Out of stuff you can buy at the chemist.

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The vast majority of illicit drugs are imported.  The vast majority of guns are purchased legally.  And...the vast majority of people who commit mass murder with guns in America were...before their actions..law abiding citizens who purchased their guns legally.

Criminals have guns and for the most part are gangs.   But the gangs aren't going out and shooting up High Schools.  But let's say that guns are illegal...let's say you couldn't even get one if you tried very hard.  A person that wants to commit mass murder doesn't need a gun.  Gasoline and a lighter can do the job.   Various other ways to kill people.

So...banning guns isn't the issue.  Everyone knows this Cruz guy killed 17 people.  Try him quickly...and EXECUTE him publicly and quickly.  Quick trial.  Quick hanging.  Reality TV as it were.   And let's start doing that with ALL people who murder other people.  If we know they did it...hang them!

 

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Just now, Kismit said:

Built up from parts purchased legally or rebuilds? Because you shouldn't be able to make one of these 

 

does it really matter how,  there are few different ways, legal and not.  

shouldn't be as in moral aspect, or legal aspect??? yea it stops so many from committing crimes, lol it's such a strong argument,  you should not go into school and kill kids, but people still do it, we need more murder laws, i guess they did not get the memo that murder is against the law, ban murder

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1 minute ago, joc said:

The vast majority of illicit drugs are imported.  The vast majority of guns are purchased legally.  And...the vast majority of people who commit mass murder with guns in America were...before their actions..law abiding citizens who purchased their guns legally.

Criminals have guns and for the most part are gangs.   But the gangs aren't going out and shooting up High Schools.  But let's say that guns are illegal...let's say you couldn't even get one if you tried very hard.  A person that wants to commit mass murder doesn't need a gun.  Gasoline and a lighter can do the job.   Various other ways to kill people.

So...banning guns isn't the issue.  Everyone knows this Cruz guy killed 17 people.  Try him quickly...and EXECUTE him publicly and quickly.  Quick trial.  Quick hanging.  Reality TV as it were.   And let's start doing that with ALL people who murder other people.  If we know they did it...hang them!

 

I agree that if someone wants to commit a mass murder they will. We do still have issues in other nations.

It depends on your definition of what is mass murder as to wether or not those who do it with a gun are generally law abiding citizens that snap.

 

Domestic violence convictions have been linked to plenty of mass murdders, out of the recent 3 big ones all three had known mental health issues, 2 where known to police, and one had a dishonorable discharge from the army as well as domestic violence convictions. All three purchased thier guns legally. This shows that the current system is not working.

If you limit access to guns and really control that access, you make it harder for a person to plan a mass shooting.

Drugs are a seperate issue. Perhaps if you could limit gun violence more resources could be used securing the border.

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11 minutes ago, aztek said:

does it really matter how,  there are few different ways, legal and not.  

shouldn't be as in moral aspect, or legal aspect??? yea it stops so many from committing crimes, lol it's such a strong argument,  you should not go into school and kill kids, but people still do it, we need more murder laws, i guess they did not get the memo that murder is against the law, ban murder

You equate guns with murder.Why do  you view them so intrisicly connected?

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1 minute ago, aztek said:

i'm pointing out fails in your logic

And if you answered my question honestly you would see there where no fails in my logic.

Tell me why you decided to use an argument which equated guns with murder?

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Just now, Kismit said:

And if you answered my question honestly you would see there where no fails in my logic.

Tell me why you decided to use an argument which equated guns with murder?

i see what you trying to do, not gonna work on me,  you have my answer, if you do not like it, well, there is no other. 

and yes your logic is a fail as far as gun laws go

Edited by aztek
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