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Black Red Devil

Italian elections on the 4th March

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Black Red Devil

The populist theme in Italy at the moment is anti-immigration and the current state of the economy with large unemployment among the young. Polls are indicating a massive move towards the right populist parties. If the coalition of these parties win, they're promising the deportation of over 600,000 illegal immigrants and maybe, possibly an Italexit (?) if the EU doesn't change their stance (on immigration and the economy).  I doubt they will (exit Europe) but if this doesn't awaken Brussels' policies on immigration, there will be BIG trouble.  Other EU member nations have already shifted right and the east refuse to accept migrants from the ME and NA.  Two videos that summise what's happening in the oncoming elections in Italy and touch on what's happening in Europe in general.

 

 

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keithisco

It is extremely frustrating that the BBC offers almost zero coverage on the upcoming Italy election. Even on the BBC Europe page there has been almost nothing except a bizarre focus on Silvio Berlusconi. I guess the BBC just doesn't like reporting on anything that doesnt fit with their left-wing luvvie agenda...

There is a real prospect of Italy leaving the Euro which would fast-track that currency's demise, the Italian opposition parties are strongly pro-UK, and of course, the outside, but increasingly `popular idea of leaving the EU altogether (largely driven by the mass youth who are still facing huge unemployment).

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, keithisco said:

It is extremely frustrating that the BBC offers almost zero coverage on the upcoming Italy election. Even on the BBC Europe page there has been almost nothing except a bizarre focus on Silvio Berlusconi. I guess the BBC just doesn't like reporting on anything that doesnt fit with their left-wing luvvie agenda...

There is a real prospect of Italy leaving the Euro which would fast-track that currency's demise, the Italian opposition parties are strongly pro-UK, and of course, the outside, but increasingly `popular idea of leaving the EU altogether (largely driven by the mass youth who are still facing huge unemployment).

Yeah, changes are happening under their noses and the lefty/liberal establishment isn't even batting an eyelid.  As the guy in the second video said and I agree, the two most populist themes at the moment are the economy (no brainer here) and immigration.  When a nation struggles with the economy, people tend to blame the authorities but also the new arrivals/migrants.  Both issues go hand in hand.  To add insult to injury you have a culture (Islamic) and people that struggle to adapt and integrate into western culture.  The left is failing to read the danger signs and they're totally oblivious to the fact the world as they knew it is crumbling under their feet.

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stevewinn

The definition of the word populist is 'a member or adherent of a political party seeking to represent the interests of ordinary people'.  - what's wrong with seeking to represent the interests of ordinary people? - Its about time we have political parties representing the interests of ordinary people. oh, but these are far right parties, who are racists, as opposed to the left who are free loving liberals, the socialists who represent the views of themselves and no-one else. we've seen it time and time again, oppose the lefts views and your instantly a racists and need eliminating, we've seen their actions whenever free speech is aired, here they are at a University where Jacob Rees Mogg was giving a speech. Rees Mogg the populist to his credit challenges his opponents to a debate but all they have is incoherent shouting. because they fail to win their own argument. then follows violence.

Personally i think centre right is the right balance, allows people to be liberal but also at the same time offers freedom of thought.- anything left of centre results in a nanny state, political correctness and restricted freedom especially individual freedom of speech or thought. I'd argue the left politically are more dangerous to a country, people seem to forget the far left = communism, as witnessed in such places as Former soviet Union, N.Korea, China, Vietnam, Cuba, and we've all seen Venezuela, socialist utopia's.

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keithisco

I would further add that Populism is the purest expression of a Representative Democracy. Most of the media use the term "Populist" to disparage how people feel about certain subjects, but only if those subjects to do not hold with their personally held beliefs. I was a "Populist" when I voted "Leave" and I wear that epithet with pride!!

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Grey Area

Populism becomes a problem when you have a party or persons adopting a popular stance purely to win an election.

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stevewinn
17 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Populism becomes a problem when you have a party or persons adopting a popular stance purely to win an election.

In a mature democracy those parties usually don't last long and are voted out. - which fatally damages the party as a result.

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RoofGardener

When the media use the term "populist", I believe it is actually a "dog whistle" pejorative term to suggest demagogery ... a trait that does NOT usually end well ? 

From Wikepedia: .... A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ (from Greek δημαγωγός, a popular leader, a leader of a mob, from δῆμος, people, populace, the commons + ἀγωγός leading, leader)[1] or rabble-rouser is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation.[1][2][3][4] Demagogues overturn established customs of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so...

Edited by RoofGardener
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and then
28 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

When the media use the term "populist", I believe it is actually a "dog whistle" pejorative term to suggest demagogery ... a trait that does NOT usually end well ? 

From Wikepedia: .... A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ (from Greek δημαγωγός, a popular leader, a leader of a mob, from δῆμος, people, populace, the commons + ἀγωγός leading, leader)[1] or rabble-rouser is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation.[1][2][3][4] Demagogues overturn established customs of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so...

Another reason for a democratic republic to value educated citizens, I'd say.

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itsnotoutthere
11 hours ago, keithisco said:

It is extremely frustrating that the BBC offers almost zero coverage on the upcoming Italy election. Even on the BBC Europe page there has been almost nothing except a bizarre focus on Silvio Berlusconi. I guess the BBC just doesn't like reporting on anything that doesnt fit with their left-wing luvvie agenda...

There is a real prospect of Italy leaving the Euro which would fast-track that currency's demise, the Italian opposition parties are strongly pro-UK, and of course, the outside, but increasingly `popular idea of leaving the EU altogether (largely driven by the mass youth who are still facing huge unemployment).

Indeed Steve. I've started changing the channel every time the Beeb mentions Brexit, simply to avoid having to listen to another one of their slanted biased news items.

Somebody should remind them that the people who voted to leave the E.U. also pay their wages.

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RoofGardener

If you listen to radio 4, every one of their comedy panel game programs, or sketch shows, is ferociously anti-Brexit. Urbane trendy "with-it" comedians all sneering away. Listeners have even written in to the weekly complaints show about it. But the BBC denied any problem and sneered at the complainers. (I'm not kidding). 

Oh.. and Donald Trump. Every other sentence. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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itsnotoutthere
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

If you listen to radio 4, every one of their comedy panel game programs, or sketch shows, is ferociously anti-Brexit. Urbane trendy "with-it" comedians all sneering away. Listeners have even written in to the weekly complaints show about it. But the BBC denied any problem and sneered at the complainers. (I'm not kidding). 

Oh.. and Donald Trump. Every other sentence. 

I know, I used to listen to radio 4 comedy a lot but now it's just predictably tedious.

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Black Red Devil
11 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The definition of the word populist is 'a member or adherent of a political party seeking to represent the interests of ordinary people'.  - what's wrong with seeking to represent the interests of ordinary people? - Its about time we have political parties representing the interests of ordinary people. oh, but these are far right parties, who are racists, as opposed to the left who are free loving liberals, the socialists who represent the views of themselves and no-one else. we've seen it time and time again, oppose the lefts views and your instantly a racists and need eliminating, we've seen their actions whenever free speech is aired, here they are at a University where Jacob Rees Mogg was giving a speech. Rees Mogg the populist to his credit challenges his opponents to a debate but all they have is incoherent shouting. because they fail to win their own argument. then follows violence.

Personally i think centre right is the right balance, allows people to be liberal but also at the same time offers freedom of thought.- anything left of centre results in a nanny state, political correctness and restricted freedom especially individual freedom of speech or thought. I'd argue the left politically are more dangerous to a country, people seem to forget the far left = communism, as witnessed in such places as Former soviet Union, N.Korea, China, Vietnam, Cuba, and we've all seen Venezuela, socialist utopia's.

In most western countries there is a constant swing of Parliamentary power between centre right and centre left parties at every election.  Centre right politics tend to benefit the major corporations, institutions, richer, but overall their parties work within the guidelines of the Democratic process.  The last time the far right took power in Europe was over 60 sixty years ago and we know what happened then.  During this time the only ones who would follow policies of far right party leaders were skinheads and racists. Now the fourth economy in Europe is going to have a significant number of Parliamentary seats with far right views. 

Interesting times ahead for you guys in Europe. If Italy's economy picks up and if they successfully adopt measures to stop illegal immigrants from entering Europe, other PIGS nations may follow.  Golden Dawn in Greece has a significant political presence and the Catalonian right wing party is also strong and pushing for independence from Spain.  Who knows, even Le Pen may benefit in the long run and if Macron doesn't subdue radicalism in France, she may even win the next elections. It would definitely be the EU's swansong and reduce an Islamic presence in Europe but at what cost?

 

Edited by Black Red Devil
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stevewinn
16 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

In most western countries there is a constant swing of Parliamentary power between centre right and centre left parties at every election.  Centre right politics tend to benefit the major corporations, institutions, richer, but overall their parties work within the guidelines of the Democratic process.  The last time the far right took power in Europe was over 60 sixty years ago and we know what happened then.  During this time the only ones who would follow policies of far right party leaders were skinheads and racists. Now the fourth economy in Europe is going to have a significant number of Parliamentary seats with far right views. 

Interesting times ahead for you guys in Europe. If Italy's economy picks up and if they successfully adopt measures to stop illegal immigrants from entering Europe, other PIGS nations may follow.  Golden Dawn in Greece has a significant political presence and the Catalonian right wing party is also strong and pushing for independence from Spain.  Who knows, even Le Pen may benefit in the long run and if Macron doesn't subdue radicalism in France, she may even win the next elections. It would definitely be the EU's swansong and reduce an Islamic presence in Europe but at what cost?

 

The Italians have their own style of politics - they've had 46 Prime ministers since the end of the second world war, compared to the UK's 15, or 10 French Presidents. So, Italy will continue to be Italy, no influence beyond its own borders and internal politics suited and influenced to its mafia style.

When it comes to the Political left they've had a good run, and as result have become drunk on power thinking their way is the only way. multiculturalism, Political correctness are all systematic of this. the danger signs were there when anyone who disagrees with their worldly view was classed as a racist that's okay if they were actually dealing with the very, very very small minority who are racists in any given population but the problems start when ordinary people who are the vast, vast vast majority of any population are labelled as such aswell, Its at this point when the ordinary peoples genuine concerns are not listened to and worse dismissed out of hand, The best example is here in the United Kingdom, we couldn't talk about immigration, we even had the revelation of the Labour Party, "The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair. Then we had The Gordon Brown incident will Gillian Duffy. calling her a bigot because she raised concerns about her grandchildren getting a job.

The European Union as a lot to answer for with their policies -  whenever EU elections have been held the Result time and time again was centre right and far-right parties gaining ground, The response, the mantra from the EU was and is always the same "the people have spoken and we will listen" and they never did, the arrogance believing their way was the way and the only way, all that mattered was their views. it happened in 2004, 2009, and again in 2014. its happening all over the continent why? because ordinary people are not stupid they can see they are being dragooned and the mainstream parties have betrayed them, the Left have to look in the mirror and ask how and why THEIR policies and ideologies are turning the very very very small minority into ever increasing majority. many see voting for fringe parties as a protest vote as there is no alternative and awake up call, but still the left don't listen and they themselves are veering more and more to the Far left.

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itsnotoutthere
Posted (edited)
On 2/25/2018 at 5:39 PM, stevewinn said:

The Italians have their own style of politics - they've had 46 Prime ministers since the end of the second world war, compared to the UK's 15, or 10 French Presidents. So, Italy will continue to be Italy, no influence beyond its own borders and internal politics suited and influenced to its mafia style.

When it comes to the Political left they've had a good run, and as result have become drunk on power thinking their way is the only way. multiculturalism, Political correctness are all systematic of this. the danger signs were there when anyone who disagrees with their worldly view was classed as a racist that's okay if they were actually dealing with the very, very very small minority who are racists in any given population but the problems start when ordinary people who are the vast, vast vast majority of any population are labelled as such aswell, Its at this point when the ordinary peoples genuine concerns are not listened to and worse dismissed out of hand, The best example is here in the United Kingdom, we couldn't talk about immigration, we even had the revelation of the Labour Party, "The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair. Then we had The Gordon Brown incident will Gillian Duffy. calling her a bigot because she raised concerns about her grandchildren getting a job.

The European Union as a lot to answer for with their policies -  whenever EU elections have been held the Result time and time again was centre right and far-right parties gaining ground, The response, the mantra from the EU was and is always the same "the people have spoken and we will listen" and they never did, the arrogance believing their way was the way and the only way, all that mattered was their views. it happened in 2004, 2009, and again in 2014. its happening all over the continent why? because ordinary people are not stupid they can see they are being dragooned and the mainstream parties have betrayed them, the Left have to look in the mirror and ask how and why THEIR policies and ideologies are turning the very very very small minority into ever increasing majority. many see voting for fringe parties as a protest vote as there is no alternative and awake up call, but still the left don't listen and they themselves are veering more and more to the Far left.

Exactly this.

Indeed Steve. Now that Brexit is on the horizon UKIP seem like a spent force & have faded away, but.....if the referendum result is ignored as those on the left want & Brexit is 'derailed' then there would be a massive backlash and i'm quite sure UKIP would soon become the party in power and I think the Tories are savvy enough to know this (the left not so much). 

So all those lefties crying in their beer about the Brexit result should be very careful what they wish for.

If Brexit is in any way 'fudged' I for one will do all I can to bring them to government.

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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stevewinn
4 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Exactly this.

Indeed Steve. Now that Brexit is on the horizon UKIP seem like a spent force & have faded away, but.....if the referendum result is ignored as those on the left want & Brexit is 'derailed' then there would be a massive backlash and i'm quite sure UKIP would soon become the party in power and I think the Tories are savvy enough to know this (the left not so much). 

So all those lefties crying in their beer about the Brexit result should be very careful what they wish for.

If Brexit is in any way 'fudged' I for one will do all I can to bring them to government.

woe betide any Govt who tries to fudge Brexit. - I still think the Govt and those in Westminster are caught in their little Westminster bubble and haven't fully grasped the backlash if they try to circumvent the democratic decision.

 

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stevewinn

 

Quote

 

Italy election: Populist surge prompts political deadlock

The Eurosceptic, anti-establishment Five Star Movement has won the lion's share of the vote.

But ex-PM Silvio Berlusconi's right-wing coalition, which includes the far-right League, looks set to win the most seats in the lower house of parliament.

Forming a government may now take weeks of negotiation and coalition-building.

Alternatively, fresh elections could be held in a bid to produce a more decisive result - though there is no guarantee that would happen.

Provisional results show Five Star garnering 31.6% of the vote, while the League received 18.2% of the vote and Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia 13.8%.

Matteo Renzi's ruling Democratic Party (DP) only got 19.1% of the vote, which La Repubblica newspaper says is a psychological blow to the party, as it has failed to win more than a fifth of the votes.

Broadly, support for the League came from votes in the north, while Five Star saw its strongest show of support in the south of the country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43272700

 

Oh dear the populists are at it again. winning were the Liberal left are losing. already being compared to " populist outfits " has been compared with Brexit and the election of Donald Trump in the US.

euro-skeptic government in Italy?

Lets look at the EU.

Economic troubles continue.

Ukraine Conflict still on going.

Russia at the Door.

Brexit.

Trump trade war.

Anti-Eu parties gaining momentum. France, Denmark, Austria, Poland, Hungary etc..

Italian election result...

Interesting times... problems mounting and mounting.

 

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LV-426
42 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 

Oh dear the populists are at it again. winning were the Liberal left are losing. already being compared to " populist outfits " has been compared with Brexit and the election of Donald Trump in the US.

euro-skeptic government in Italy?

Lets look at the EU.

Economic troubles continue.

Ukraine Conflict still on going.

Russia at the Door.

Brexit.

Trump trade war.

Anti-Eu parties gaining momentum. France, Denmark, Austria, Poland, Hungary etc..

Italian election result...

Interesting times... problems mounting and mounting.

 

Meanwhile, the Italian election doesn't even make front page news on the BBC.

Obviously, stories concerning which luvvy was promoting "inclusion riders" at the Oscars - yeah... I had to look that one up too - is more important :rolleyes:

There's going to be hell to pay somewhere down the line. They don't seem to grasp that the rise of populism is largely down to media agencies such as themselves, and their relentless campaign to liberalize society.

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RoofGardener

I don't get it... Five Stars got 31.6% of the vote, while the League received 18.2% of the vote and Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia 13.8%.

So the League and Forza Italia got - between them - about the same proportion of the vote as Five Stars... and yet they are anticipated to have the bulk of the seats in parliament ?

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LV-426
4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I don't get it... Five Stars got 31.6% of the vote, while the League received 18.2% of the vote and Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia 13.8%.

So the League and Forza Italia got - between them - about the same proportion of the vote as Five Stars... and yet they are anticipated to have the bulk of the seats in parliament ?

I haven't looked too closely, but hey use some kind of first past the post/proportional hybrid system, which came into effct last year:

Italian electoral law of 2017

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Vlad the Mighty

Well, it is a turn up to see eighties UK pop/R&B groups making unexpected returns to prominence in the guise of a populist rightwing party in Italy, of all places. Five Star

Anyway, onto the topic,

Quote

 If there is a European election, and the anti-establishment parties score a stunning victory (as just happened in Italy, and a few months prior, in Austria), who’re you gonna blame? Vladimir Putin (of course)!

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/03/tyler-durden/a-stunning-anti-establishment-victory/

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Vlad the Mighty
Quote

In the past 2 years, Putin has won elections in the United States, Austria, Czechia & now Italy. He's also delivered Brexit & performed well in France & Germany. It's because there are no problems in the west & a large amount of people only vote to make Russia happy.

:yes: 

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stevewinn

Crickey it hasn't taken the Italians long, the main parties who will likely form the new Government are still talking about introducing a dual currency along side the Euro, in what is seen as the start of Italy leaving the Euro, and no surprise they have criticised the EU's handling over Brexit,  Matteo Salvini who looks set to become Prime Minister said, “Great Britain is a friendly country with a long tradition of trading with Italy, and as called for a radical change in the EU’s negotiating stance over Brexit, describing threats to restrict trade and punish Britain as ideological idiocy, a policy he wouldn't support"

The EU's problems mount further.

Economic woes still on going.

Ukraine conflict far from over.

Russia at the Door.

Spain/Catalonia Regional Breakaway (EU losing territory)

Poland, Hungary, Czech Rep, Austria. suspending Voting rights, Courts, Immigrants.

Brexit. (EU losing territory, border problem on the Island of Ireland. losing second biggest economy)

Trump trade war. (taking on the worlds largest economy and superpower)

Italy/Euro. (New problems, what pressures will the EU now face and from the 4th largest economy and founding member)

and who will be dealing with all this? a collection of failed politicians, like top of the Tree - EU President Juncker - former Prime minister of Luxembourg who has no experience of dealing with matters greater than a mayor of a major city. (Luxembourg population no greater than the City of Manchester)

 

 

 

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bee
21 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Crickey it hasn't taken the Italians long, the main parties who will likely form the new Government are still talking about introducing a dual currency along side the Euro, in what is seen as the start of Italy leaving the Euro, and no surprise they have criticised the EU's handling over Brexit,  Matteo Salvini who looks set to become Prime Minister said, “Great Britain is a friendly country with a long tradition of trading with Italy, and as called for a radical change in the EU’s negotiating stance over Brexit, describing threats to restrict trade and punish Britain as ideological idiocy, a policy he wouldn't support"

 

oh I wondered how the countries with the Euro would manage to leave and keep their economies intact....

so they would introduce a dual currency system as a starting point... interesting

 

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stevewinn
2 hours ago, bee said:

 

oh I wondered how the countries with the Euro would manage to leave and keep their economies intact....

so they would introduce a dual currency system as a starting point... interesting

 

Problem is the moment a single country introduces a parallel currency the rest of them still using the Euro will be in serious trouble. the money markets would react and i'd think the whole thing would collapse before the country who introduced the parallel currency had time to prepare. The Germans would be left holding the baby. it would be the second and final coming for the Euro. the Euro would then be consigned to the History books. and no-doubt at some point in the future when new empires are built they'll point to and reference the EU/Euro and say that's how not to do it. 

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