Let's talk mummies

[Piney]

19 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

It seems to have evolved that way socially. Originally people were just placed in pits in the desert floor, sometimes wrapped in skins and mats and sometimes not. The arid environment often dried out the bodies naturally.

Eventually the elite started to construct tombs and coffins, which separated the body from the environment and led to complete decay. This led to artificial means to preserve the body, and originally only the wealthy could afford this time and expense.

 

The Elite probably evolved by monopoly of trade and monopoly of crops. Like the "Big Man" system of North America at the beginning of the Adena Complex

[Harte]

19 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Movies are mostly nonsense, but a lot of fun. I love the Brendan Fraser movies.

But far more interesting:

Compared to:

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

35 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Who is the oldest, period wise, Egyptian Pharaoh whose mummy has been found and who is the youngest? 

cormac

Depends if you mean in part or in whole. If we're talking chunks, there's the mummified arm found by Petrie's men in the tomb of Djer at Abydos. Some say it is the arm of that king, some say it belonged to his queen. In any case, that's Dynasty 1. If you're interested in something more than an arm, off the top of my head I'd say it's the poorly preserved mummy of Senebkay, whose tomb was discovered at Abydos in 2014 by Josef Wegner. Senebkay's skeleton is robust and powerful, so he was a big man, but he's mostly just bones now. He was a minor regional king who was unknown in the historical record prior to Wegner's discovery. I wrote an article about it on my blog.

I'd wager the last kings to be found were those in the unplundered royal tombs of Tanis, found by Montet in 1939. There were two or three of them connected together, but I can't recall which king was the last to be found. They date to the Third Intermediate Period. Off the top of my head I can't think of a king's remains that post-date that. 

[kmt_sesh]

35 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Elite probably evolved by monopoly of trade and monopoly of crops. Like the "Big Man" system of North America at the beginning of the Adena Complex

Very much so.. The elite emerged from the village chieftains and elders of the tribal systems that occupied the Nile Valley prior to state formation (3,100 BCE). This would've included priests and other figures of authority.

[Piney]

My people, The Nanticoke and the Southern Unami (Lenape) of Southern New Jersey and Delaware created a sort of Mummy by smoking the bodies in a Death House (Chiikoniison). then every ten years held a "Feast of the Dead" where the bodies were picked clean wrapped in a bundle and buried in the community ossuary or under the floor of the wigwams owned  by their families. One sub-tribe of the Southern Unami was actually named after the "smoke house" by the Swedish. (The Sicconese). They lived in both Southern New Jersey and Northern Delaware and are known to archaeologists as the Riggins Complex. 

[DebDandelion]

3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Sorry, almost missed this. Historians have divided ancient Egypt into chunks of time to make it easier to discuss events and identify certain periods. Here's a good chart on the timeline of ancient Egypt:

https://www.historyonthenet.com/timeline-ancient-egypt/

So the Old Kingdom is one of the earliest periods of their history; according to the chart in the link, from 2575 BCE to 2150 BCE. This is the Early Bronze Age. In Egypt it's also called the Pyramid Age because that's when the really big pyramids were made, although smaller and less well-made pyramids were still being erected for quite some time after that.

Interesting. Thank you!

 

[Djedi]

10 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Depends if you mean in part or in whole. If we're talking chunks, there's the mummified arm found by Petrie's men in the tomb of Djer at Abydos. Some say it is the arm of that king, some say it belonged to his queen. In any case, that's Dynasty 1. If you're interested in something more than an arm, off the top of my head I'd say it's the poorly preserved mummy of Senebkay, whose tomb was discovered at Abydos in 2014 by Josef Wegner. Senebkay's skeleton is robust and powerful, so he was a big man, but he's mostly just bones now. He was a minor regional king who was unknown in the historical record prior to Wegner's discovery. I wrote an article about it on my blog.

I'd wager the last kings to be found were those in the unplundered royal tombs of Tanis, found by Montet in 1939. There were two or three of them connected together, but I can't recall which king was the last to be found. They date to the Third Intermediate Period. Off the top of my head I can't think of a king's remains that post-date that. 

The oldest remains of a royal mummy that have been identified with any degree of certainty would be those of Neferefre from the 5th dynasty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neferefre#Mummy_of_Neferefre

Second oldest would be the more intact remains of Djedkare Isesi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djedkare_Isesi#Pyramid

The youngest mummy from the Tanis tombs was that of Shoshenq II of the 22nd dynasty (actually a skeleton since all soft tissue was dissolved due to water infiltration in his original tomb); however there is no consensus amongst egyptologists if Shoshenq II has been an actual king or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshenq_II#Death_and_Burial

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sheshonqii.htm

[Lord Harry]

I am in the process of conducting an investigation into the mummified remains discovered in the Red Pyramid in 1948. It is possible, though uncertain that the mummy found was the royal mummy of King Sneferu. Rainer Stadelmann seems to believe so.

Interestingly, the current whereabouts of this mummy is unknown. Even the professionals I have spoken to are uncertain where the mummy is currently located. Some sources say the al-Qasr collection in Cairo. Others claim the mummy was stolen soon after its discovery. I am conducting an in depth investigation into this cold case file. If anyone has any information at all regarding the possible fate or current whereabouts of this mummy please let me know.

Even tracking down the official archaeological field report for the 1948 excavation is proving to be elusive.

[rashore]

What mummy looks like a tasty roast beef sandwich and why? 

Just joking there, that was answered in another thread. Just wanted to post to keep in the thread....

Though if folks other than kmt come up with the answer to that trivia, bonus!

[Piney]

Just now, rashore said:

What mummy looks like a tasty roast beef sandwich and why? 

Just joking there, that was answered in another thread. Just wanted to post to keep in the thread....

Though if folks other than kmt come up with the answer to that trivia, bonus!

Well, If my tribe still practiced what I described above, granny would be "beef jerky"

[kmt_sesh]

On February 26, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Piney said:

My people, The Nanticoke and the Southern Unami (Lenape) of Southern New Jersey and Delaware created a sort of Mummy by smoking the bodies in a Death House (Chiikoniison). then every ten years held a "Feast of the Dead" where the bodies were picked clean wrapped in a bundle and buried in the community ossuary or under the floor of the wigwams owned  by their families. One sub-tribe of the Southern Unami was actually named after the "smoke house" by the Swedish. (The Sicconese). They lived in both Southern New Jersey and Northern Delaware and are known to archaeologists as the Riggins Complex. 

Smoking of the remains was done in the Orient and elsewhere. Your post reminded me of Catalhöyük in Anatolia. They didn't really have a death house, per se, but the archaeologists found evidence of rooms used as interments. The rooms were then walled off. Other cultures have used the dwellings of the deceased for interment, after which they would burn the dwelling so it could not be used again. Did your people ever do something like that?

Prehistoric burials in the Nile Valley often involved the disarticulation of the body with the bones neatly arranged in a pit; sometimes a pit might contain an assortment of numerous people's bones. That practice seems to have ended in the early Old Kingdom. It's thought that in Roman Egypt a sort of ancestor cult developed in which mummies of loved ones were propped inside cabinets that stood in a courtyard. The cabinets have been excavated and have large, double-leaf doors that could be opened so as to view the deceased inside. This seems to have been in the early centuries CE, during the practice of portrait mummies. Sometimes these mummies show an unusual wear pattern to the ankles, as though they had been stood up for an extended period of time.

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, rashore said:

What mummy looks like a tasty roast beef sandwich and why? 

Just joking there, that was answered in another thread. Just wanted to post to keep in the thread....

Though if folks other than kmt come up with the answer to that trivia, bonus!

I'd forgotten about that Italian beef mummy. 

[Lysippos]

4 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Smoking of the remains was done in the Orient and elsewhere. Your post reminded me of Catalhöyük in Anatolia. They didn't really have a death house, per se, but the archaeologists found evidence of rooms used as interments. The rooms were then walled off. Other cultures have used the dwellings of the deceased for interment, after which they would burn the dwelling so it could not be used again. Did your people ever do something like that?

What? Please document above marked in bold.

Unless, of course, you are referring to the under floor burials. In that case, I would say above is a misleading description. 

Catalhöyük in Turkey is probably the most well known site to professionals in the world. 

[Piney]

9 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Your posting resembles a petulant (but bright) teenager far more than an adult with qualifications in history studies.

--Jaylemurph

I remember many years ago (over 10) I tore through all the Native forums ( and the ones that actually kept out the Bliss Bunnies and Newage wannabes)  which were always filled with uneducated morons and charged into here thinking my Quaker education and classes at Rutgers and Princeton were "all that".  I ran head first right into @Harte. who promptly cracked my intellectual skull with a  "experience hammer"......

[rashore]

15 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

I'd forgotten about that Italian beef mummy. 

Yeah.. I still find it kind of funny about poor Tuts beefy goodness

 

[Lysippos]

On 27/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, Lord Harry said:

Even tracking down the official archaeological field report for the 1948 excavation is proving to be elusive.

I doubt a field report would have been done. If you are referring to the excavation report, I can tell you it was never published. It’s a long shot, but try looking for the interim excavation reports.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Lysippos

[Lord Harry]

4 minutes ago, Lysippos said:

I doubt a field report would have been done. If you are referring to the excavation report, I can tell you it was never published. It’s a long shot, but try looking for the interim excavation reports.

Thank you sir. Will look.

[kmt_sesh]

40 minutes ago, Lysippos said:

Im not impressed by your false claims. 

Your claim is not backed up by any archaeological evidence. It’s pure nonsense.

Watch your attitude. You come across as a teenager. I'm serious that I don't want you in this thread. Note the blue bar in my avatar. Do I need to start removing your posts?

If you can't remain civil, mature, and level headed, there is no place for you in this discussion.

[rashore]

5 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Watch your attitude. You come across as a teenager. I'm serious that I don't want you in this thread. Note the blue bar in my avatar. Do I need to start removing your posts?

If you can't remain civil, mature, and level headed, there is no place for you in this discussion.

Agreed kmt. This thread was going along rather nicely, and does not need a downer attitude.

So let's get this thread back to beefy goodness. I'm right there with you on that.

What happened to all the mummies folks in the public sectors collected for a while? I know artifacts got scooped up and was popular for a while.

[kmt_sesh]

2 minutes ago, rashore said:

...

What happened to all the mummies folks in the public sectors collected for a while? I know artifacts got scooped up and was popular for a while.

I'd wager most of them were just destroyed. But some years back after a lecture I gave at the museum, a visitor came up to chat for a while. She was a very nice young woman from northern England. In her time at Manchester University she'd had the occasion to meet and spend time with an Egyptologist named Joyce Filer, who has forensic training. I have read a number of Filer's works and enjoy her material.

This woman I met said Filer had told her of her experiences traveling about England to examine people's private Egyptian collections. England was the hub of mummy unwrappings a hundred years ago, and it turns out some of the manors that hosted private unwrappings kept their mummies. Filer would examine them to determine if the human remains were authentic mummies. To this day mummies are kept in some of the manners, inside glass cases. Some of them now wear bowler hats and bow ties.

[rashore]

3 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I'd wager most of them were just destroyed. But some years back after a lecture I gave at the museum, a visitor came up to chat for a while. She was a very nice young woman from northern England. In her time at Manchester University she'd had the occasion to meet and spend time with an Egyptologist named Joyce Filer, who has forensic training. I have read a number of Filer's works and enjoy her material.

This woman I met said Filer had told her of her experiences traveling about England to examine people's private Egyptian collections. England was the hub of mummy unwrappings a hundred years ago, and it turns out some of the manors that hosted private unwrappings kept their mummies. Filer would examine them to determine if the human remains were authentic mummies. To this day mummies are kept in some of the manners, inside glass cases. Some of them now wear bowler hats and bow ties.

Bowler hats and bow ties? That seems rather... undignified. It appeals to the Halloween humor in me but still. I suppose a better fate in a way than just being destroyed. So what qualifies a mummy for a museum then? I know some come from digs and such, but do people donate the stuff too?

[internetperson]

On 2/26/2018 at 6:15 PM, kmt_sesh said:

But why do it at all? 

This was my question. Is it possible that it's a bit more straightforward? Meaning instead of being a religious process (or whatever) that they just saw the process of decomposition and wanted to avoid it? Hell we do the same thing today with the cryofreezing. Some folks think they can freeze their body then when technology advances they can be brought back. 

Oh and damn you all for slowly ruining roast beef for me.

Regarding the trading thing: didn't egyptians export lots of pots/vases. I remember that-one-book I read talked about that as well as I think copper and flint. 

[kmt_sesh]

25 minutes ago, rashore said:

Bowler hats and bow ties? That seems rather... undignified. It appeals to the Halloween humor in me but still. I suppose a better fate in a way than just being destroyed. So what qualifies a mummy for a museum then? I know some come from digs and such, but do people donate the stuff too?

Some mummies have been donated from private collections. Over a century ago you could go to Egypt and buy mummies and pretty much anything else, much of which was sold at auctions in Cairo, Alexandria, Luxor, and other Egyptian cities. That's how our museum ended up with its large collection. We have forty Egyptian mummies in various states of preservation.

This is the Field Museum. Another museum where I infrequently work is the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. They have a few mummies and I'm pretty sure those were purchased, too. One of the most prominent is a woman named Meresamun, inside a beautiful cartonnage coffin. The founder of the Institute, J.H. Breasted, went to Egypt on his honeymoon at the beginning of the 1900s, and bought Meresamun's coffin and mummy. He kept the mummy under his martial bed while on honeymoon. 

[rashore]

1 hour ago, internetperson said:

This was my question. Is it possible that it's a bit more straightforward? Meaning instead of being a religious process (or whatever) that they just saw the process of decomposition and wanted to avoid it? Hell we do the same thing today with the cryofreezing. Some folks think they can freeze their body then when technology advances they can be brought back. 

Oh and damn you all for slowly ruining roast beef for me.

Regarding the trading thing: didn't egyptians export lots of pots/vases. I remember that-one-book I read talked about that as well as I think copper and flint. 

Don't mean to ruin the beef for you.. It's from another thread. I ran across a funny meme and posted it up here to get the 411 info behind the meme and thought it humorous to share with the history buffs of the subject here as a trivia question. Considering some of the delightful humor in the history threads.. though the hot beef injection here would only be mildly juicy.

And heheh, ok, I'll back off the pundits before anyone really cuts the mustard about the whole thing. (And yuck, mustard on a good Chicago beef)...

 

Back to properly dried and resin and not beefy mummies..

[Wistman]

Lovely topic.  I've not much to add, off-hand, except to say that during the nineteenth century, fine artists (oil painters) sought translucent brown pigments to use in glazing techniques and thereby could achieve wonderful effects.  Some experimental pigments, bitumen for instance (called asphaltum), were disastrous because the quality that made them translucent also kept them from entirely drying, thus eventually cracking the paint film after the overlying varnish dried.  Another translucent brown was called mummium, made basically from ground up mummies, easily acquired due to their plentiful supply.  Many, many mummies were destroyed this way.  It's all rather disgraceful and disrespectful, but the French Academics and British Victorians somehow didn't regard it as such, in spite of their declared Christian morality or their professed enlightened humanism.

I prefer the bowler hat and bowtie treatment; at least they're regarded as people.

Edited March 1, 2018 by The Wistman