To the Atheists

[Miikee]

Honestly, it's sad to see that some atheists are so insanely addicted to facts. I could learn everything we now know about the universe, I could read a thousand books about life, atoms, outer space, the Big Bang, human consciousness, emotions, etc. But that will not take me any closer to atheism, if anything, it would just take me further away from it...

When you observe the world, and think deeply about it, you realize how absurd it really is. The fact that us humans are even here to be able to question it, learn about it, ponder on it, just makes it even more absurd. It makes you ask why? Why did anything at all come into existence in the first place? Why did that something that came into existence create another thing to come into existence? And that thing another? And another? Etc. which ultimately lead to the world as we know it today. What/Who is creating this randomness or these non-random processes? Why is this even possible anyway? You'll probably say something along the lines of ''Oh well it's just quantum mechanics'', but how come quantum mechanics even exist in the first place? Who/what created quantum mechanics? Please try to be a little open-minded and and you'll see where I'm coming from, as I defenitely see where you're coming from.

I don't mind if you tell me that our universe is just the way that it is and we simply do not know why. I have absolutely no problem with agnosticism, in fact the world would probably be much better off if everyone was agnostic instead of everyone believing in a bunch of different things (yes that includes atheism, as atheists believe that there is no God). It's just really mind-boggling when some atheists make believers look stupid, ignorant or sometimes even insane for believing, when it's in my opinion just as sane (if not more sane) than to believe that nothing greater exists and that the entire universe and everything in it was just a fluke...

As I said before however, I can only believe, just as you can only believe. No one can (and perhaps ever will) be able to prove or disprove that there is something greater, and this is the beauty of the mystery of life. What makes it beautiful isn't the mystery itself, but the fact that we are here and are able with our intellect and consciousness to ponder on it or even better, try to figure out that mystery 

And for the record, I don't believe in something greater because it feels good/gives me comfort. I understand that many people around the world do and that's why religions are so popular. You see my atheist friends, I am just really, really amazed by this incredible, awe-inspiring world that we live in that the only logical belief for me to have, is that it didn't come from nothing. Does this make sense to you? If not I might as well give up with this post. And if you just can't believe in something greater, well at the very least, be a smart and sensible person (like Einstein for instance) and be agnostic... It's okay not to know, no one knows. What is not okay though, is pretending you do know and then belittle anyone who doesn't believe in what you pretend to know. Peace and love. <3

 

The reason I made a new thread is because I'd rather have everyone who replied to me earlier gather and read this here, instead of me having to reply to each of you separately. I am open to discussion and debate, but if you belittle and demean my beliefs without actually coming with a constructive argument, then I will just ignore you, FYI. Also, I made a poll, because why not. 

[Essan]

Some of us anthropocentricise nature. Some don't.    Some need order in chaos, some accept that chaos is the norm and has no reason.

[Miikee]

Just now, Essan said:

Some of us anthropocentricise nature. Some don't.    Some need order in chaos, some accept that chaos is the norm and has no reason.

Hmm, when you observe the universe, do you really see chaos? If it's chaos, it's gotta be some fine-tuned chaos!

[XenoFish]

Science wants to know how it all works, religion assumes it has all the answers. 

As an apatheist, I do not know nor do I care if god exist.

[Miikee]

14 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Science wants to know how it all works, religion assumes it has all the answers. 

As an apatheist, I do not know nor do I care if god exist.

Why do you have to involve religion in the matter? Religion has nothing to do with this... I do agree with you though, religion assumes the answers, like I've mentioned before, I am quite certain all religions are 100% man-made. And yes, science wants to know how it all works, personally I love science, and I really do hope science can somehow one day answer ''the big question''

I like that you're an apatheist, it shows you are smart enough to realize you do not know. And even though you do not care,you have got to admit, it's one of the most interesting things for humans to talk about

[GoldenWolf]

I believe in the Golden Rule, not a might is right abomination.

[XenoFish]

12 minutes ago, Miikee said:

you have got to admit, it's one of the most interesting things for humans to talk about

Not really. It's more annoying that anything. Every discussion on the topic of belief devolves into petty squabbles. 

[Miikee]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Not really. It's more annoying that anything. Every discussion on the topic of belief devolves into petty squabbles. 

Well, maybe that's because you've had too many of them 

[Guyver]

8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Not really. It's more annoying that anything. Every discussion on the topic of belief devolves into petty squabbles. 

Maybe people just like to argue.  They like to fight.  Maybe most people are just a bunch of ignorant savages?  IDK.  But, if you will attack a man taking his son to the football game because he has the wrong team jersey on, you’re a disgusting flea bag in my book.  I mean, not you....just any general idiot.

Anyway, it doesn’t have to be God, it could be politics or Bigfoot.  Anytime peoples opinions and beliefs are involved, people get uppity.

[ShadowSot]

1 hour ago, Miikee said:

Who/what created quantum mechanics?

Dunno. See, that's the thing. atheists generally are satisfied recognizing where we know and don't know something. And the theists tend to see that lack of knowledge and put in a God. 

 Personally I tend to think we are limited to how far we can examine the world, but both historically and in my lifetime those limits have been broken. 

 I was banking on the LHC proving the standard model wrong, to some degree, and for high scale tests of Einstein theories to show flaws in his work. I expected some more screwy stuff at the quantum level. But so far those have held up. 

1 hour ago, Miikee said:

, I am just really, really amazed by this incredible, awe-inspiring world that we live in that the only logical belief for me to have, is that it didn't come from nothing

The Christian point of view is creation ex nihlo. Science gets us to the big bang, but we still don't have much beyond hypothesis before that. 

 I don't believe in a God. Personal incredulity at the universe doesn't get me there. 

I am agnostic in the sense I don't claim to believe there is no God or some greater "thing" that could be considered one. 

But I am an Atheist in the sense that I don't see a reason to believe in one either. 

[Miikee]

14 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

Dunno. See, that's the thing. atheists generally are satisfied recognizing where we know and don't know something. And the theists tend to see that lack of knowledge and put in a God. 

 Personally I tend to think we are limited to how far we can examine the world, but both historically and in my lifetime those limits have been broken. 

 I was banking on the LHC proving the standard model wrong, to some degree, and for high scale tests of Einstein theories to show flaws in his work. I expected some more screwy stuff at the quantum level. But so far those have held up. 

The Christian point of view is creation ex nihlo. Science gets us to the big bang, but we still don't have much beyond hypothesis before that. 

 I don't believe in a God. Personal incredulity at the universe doesn't get me there. 

I am agnostic in the sense I don't claim to believe there is no God or some greater "thing" that could be considered one. 

But I am an Atheist in the sense that I don't see a reason to believe in one either. 

Why do so many atheists make such a big fuss out of us believers wanting to believe, EVEN IF all we are really doing is trying to find reasons to believe (which is not the case, I have enough of a good reason to believe)? Like, it's been 13.7 billions of years of evolution, and now we are here and a human life lasts for what? 130 years max? I think I'll defenitely question my existence while I still can.

Question for you: Isn't our universe a pretty damn good reason to believe in something greater? If not believe, at least acknowledge that it is very possible?

[Crazy Horse]

13 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

o. See, that's the thing. atheists generally are satisfied recognizing where we know and don't know something. And the theists tend to see that lack of knowledge and put in a God. 

 Personally I tend to think we are limited to how far we can examine the world, but both historically and in my lifetime those limits have been broken. 

 I was banking on the LHC proving the standard model wrong, to some degree, and for high scale tests of Einstein theories to show flaws in his work. I expected some more screwy stuff at the quantum level. But so far those have held up. 

The Christian point of view is creation ex nihlo. Science gets us to the big bang, but we still don't have much beyond hypothesis before that. 

 I don't believe in a God. Personal incredulity at the universe doesn't get me there. 

I am agnostic in the sense I don't claim to believe there is no God or some greater "thing" that could be considered one. 

But I am an Atheist in the sense that I don't see a reason to believe in one either. 

Just out of interest, for all the atheists and agnostics, is there anything, any kind of miracle that would change your minds? Or, maybe some kind of personal revelation, or some extraordinary experience, or something...?

Is there anything that would change your minds?

Perhaps some kind of spontaneous healing, or perhaps you became so desperate about something that you just cried out in anguish, some kind of prayer without even thinking, and that prayer got answered?

What would it take?

 

[+and-then]

29 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Maybe people just like to argue.  They like to fight.  Maybe most people are just a bunch of ignorant savages?  IDK.  But, if you will attack a man taking his son to the football game because he has the wrong team jersey on, you’re a disgusting flea bag in my book.  I mean, not you....just any general idiot.

Anyway, it doesn’t have to be God, it could be politics or Bigfoot.  Anytime peoples opinions and beliefs are involved, people get uppity.

THIS^  It seems that religious belief is one of those trigger points where normally reasonable, even friendly, people, can just lose their ability to "live and let live"  ON BOTH SIDES.  MY beliefs are MINE and while I feel I am correct, I also am informed by them that it isn't my place to judge the beliefs of others.  I AM called to share them but not to harangue or demand anything from anyone.  Just the opposite, in fact.  "Shake off the dust of that town" is the command when faced with people who reject the word.  That doesn't sound like, "get in their face and demand they LISTEN!!"  

[ShadowSot]

3 minutes ago, Miikee said:

Why do so many atheists make such a big fuss out of us believers wanting to believe, EVEN IF all we are really doing is trying to find reasons to believe (which is not the case, I have enough of a good reason to believe)? Like, it's been 13.7 billions of years of evolution, and now we are here and a human life lasts for what? 130 years max? I think I'll defenitely question my existence while I still can.

I'm responding to a thread you created going at atheists. This is not a thread an Atheist created. 

I don't have much issues with theists who go with science on most matters, but morally I do end up opposed to the loudest factions. 

5 minutes ago, Miikee said:

Question for you: Isn't our universe a pretty damn good reason to believe in something greater? If not believe, at least acknowledge that it is very possible?

Not really. Incredulity isn't an argument. 

[Michelle]

3 minutes ago, Miikee said:

Why do so many atheists make such a big fuss out of us believers wanting to believe,

A lot of us don't care. You won't see us in these threads though, because we aren't going to spend lots of time trying to convince you you are wrong. We aren't going to study the Bible so we can contradict your beliefs.

Life is too short and it's frankly none of our business, as long as you aren't harming anyone else.

We are out there.  

[Miikee]

2 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

I'm responding to a thread you created going at atheists. This is not a thread an Atheist created. 

I don't have much issues with theists who go with science on most matters, but morally I do end up opposed to the loudest factions. 

Not really. Incredulity isn't an argument. 

Yes I am going at atheists. I did not create this thread just to start arguments. I actually want to learn how atheists think, perhaps I'll learn something new. Specifically, I want to know why atheists believe there is no God / a higher order. I get it, it might seem like there's no point in believing in something there is no evidence for, but like I mentioned in another post, what if we're just not meant to know? And how can you turn your back on the possibility of a God so easily? Just look at the world, if all of this is possible, then certainly a creator/designer of all of this is possible too, right? This is not science, religion or philosophy, this is pure logic and common sense...

[ShadowSot]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Just out of interest, for all the atheists and agnostics, is there anything, any kind of miracle that would change your minds? Or, maybe some kind of personal revelation, or some extraordinary experience, or something...?

Is there anything that would change your minds?

Perhaps some kind of spontaneous healing, or perhaps you became so desperate about something that you just cried out in anguish, some kind of prayer without even thinking, and that prayer got answered?

What would it take?

 

Sure there are things that would change my mind. Funny thing about prayer, it has been examined. Testing it shows people who don't know they're being prayed for don't do any different than those who aren't, and those who know they're being prayed for do worse. 

The US is very religious, but does worse in health outcomes in general, though not by much, than less religious countries with good safety nets and health systems. 

 Religion does help with community, which leads to better health outcomes. But that benefit tends to vanish when you have a functioning system. 

 Spontaneous recovery is a thing, it's something medical treatments have to account for when they're developed. And it doesn't seem to matter what belief is held. 

 As for "crying out in anguish and having it answered"., Random crap happens. I'm not a crime buff, but I dabble. Lots of people cry out in anguish. Every now and then someone gets lucky or their own personal fortitude gives them an option. I'd need something better than fortune of numbers. 

[Miikee]

6 minutes ago, Michelle said:

A lot of us don't care. You won't see us in these threads though, because we aren't going to spend lots of time trying to convince you you are wrong. We aren't going to study the Bible so we can contradict your beliefs.

Life is too short and it's frankly none of our business, as long as you aren't harming anyone else.

We are out there.  

I am not religious, if you would take some time to read before you reply, you would've known this. But nah, you'd rather respond with in a demeaning manner with a rather useless comment. So yeah, I'd rather not have someone like you in this thread anyway, bye bye Michelle!

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, Michelle said:

A lot of us don't care. You won't see us in these threads though, because we aren't going to spend lots of time trying to convince you you are wrong. We aren't going to study the Bible so we can contradict your beliefs.

Life is too short and it's frankly none of our business, as long as you aren't harming anyone else.

We are out there.  

Eventually some of us get to the point where we realize how pointless a discussion actually is. 

[Miikee]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Eventually some of us get to the point where we realize how pointless a discussion actually is. 

Just because it's pointless for you, doesn't mean it's pointless for me.  

[ShadowSot]

2 minutes ago, Miikee said:

Yes I am going at atheists. I did not create this thread just to start arguments.

There have been more threads having a go at atheists from sampling this forum than theists. 

 

3 minutes ago, Miikee said:

what if we're just not meant to know?

If a being is altogether indistinguishable from no existence, don't really see the use. 

 

4 minutes ago, Miikee said:

And how can you turn your back on the possibility of a God so easily?

I live in the most religious of the first world nations. I wouldn't say it is easy, though not as difficult as more theocratic developing nations. 

I've not said God is not possible. I've said I don't believe, and incredulity is not a good argument. 

7 minutes ago, Miikee said:

Just look at the world, if all of this is possible, then certainly a creator/designer of all of this is possible too, right?

Show your work. 

 

7 minutes ago, Miikee said:

This is not science, religion or philosophy, this is pure logic and common sense...

It isn't logic, so far you've just cited your sense of awe and wonder. Common sense isn't much of an argument, what was common sense years ago is now stupid. Common sense is just biases we're raised with. 

[ShadowSot]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Eventually some of us get to the point where we realize how pointless a discussion actually is. 

Some if us just get bored. 

[ChrLzs]

9 minutes ago, Miikee said:

Yes I am going at atheists. I did not create this thread just to start arguments.

Bwahahah!  Of course not.  And your available options are of course carefully worded and unbiased, and cover all possibilities.

Oh wait, no they don't ... and in fact my response above was entirely sarcasm.  When added to your lame (and cowardly) request for people to leave because you don't like what they have to say... well, good luck with your thread, Miikee...

[Miikee]

9 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

There have been more threads having a go at atheists from sampling this forum than theists. 

 

If a being is altogether indistinguishable from no existence, don't really see the use. 

I never said that. All I said was that we are perhaps not supposed to know who our creator is, or why we are created. Perhaps we are supposed to figure that out on our own. Perhaps this is just a test as many religions say. Perhaps God created us out of boredom. Perhaps God was lonely. The possibilities are endless as to why we are here. What baffles me with atheists, is how they automatically assume that there is no creator just because we haven't found evidence for one yet...

Ilive in the most religious of the first world nations. I wouldn't say it is easy, though not as difficult as more theocratic developing nations. 

I've not said God is not possible. I've said I don't believe, and incredulity is not a good argument. 

Show your work. 

 

It isn't logic, so far you've just cited your sense of awe and wonder. Common sense isn't much of an argument, what was common sense years ago is now stupid. Common sense is just biases we're raised with. 

So what exactly are you asking of me? To prove that God exists? Really? If that was somehow possible at this point in time, we wouldn't have had this discussion to begin with. Also, it goes both ways, is it logical to believe that trillions and trillions of things came into existence from nothing at all to begin with?

EDIT: Seriously, stop telling believers to come with evidence that God exists. We can use the exact same futile argument right back: Prove to us that God doesn't exist. Oh what's that? Impossible? Yeah that's what I thought.  

Edited February 28, 2018 by Miikee

[XenoFish]

12 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

There have been more threads having a go at atheists from sampling this forum than theists. 

Yep. Even when you ask theist questions about why they believe you get railroaded.

Edited February 28, 2018 by XenoFish