Jump to content
Unexplained Mysteries uses cookies. By using the site you consent to our use of cookies as per our Cookie Policy.
Close X
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Mr Guitar

Where Is Heaven?

304 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Mr Guitar

Went to a southern baptist 'celebration of life' (funeral) yesterday and it was just like all the rest I've observed - just the name of the departed changed. These folks try to make it seem to be 'fun' to be dead - sheesh! I, for the life of me, cannot figure out why people can't just accept the fact that they die and go in the ground and rot like other biological entities like squirrels and rabbits and leaves and stuff - that is a proven FACT. Heaven and creators and all are just wishful thinking and not factual. If someone could demonstrate where 'heaven' is and what goes on there, it would make things much clearer.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)

Since Heaven is a theological concept, there are no factual answers, only religious ones predicated on Faith. According to one of the Gnostic scriptures, Jesus is quoted as saying: "The Kingdom of Heaven is spread out upon the face of the Earth, but men do not see it."  You're not likely to get any better answer than that, I fear.

Edited by Hammerclaw
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, Mr Guitar said:

Went to a southern baptist 'celebration of life' (funeral) yesterday and it was just like all the rest I've observed - just the name of the departed changed. These folks try to make it seem to be 'fun' to be dead - sheesh! I, for the life of me, cannot figure out why people can't just accept the fact that they die and go in the ground and rot like other biological entities like squirrels and rabbits and leaves and stuff - that is a proven FACT. Heaven and creators and all are just wishful thinking and not factual. If someone could demonstrate where 'heaven' is and what goes on there, it would make things much clearer.

I used to think that the universe was created by the big bang until I found out about quantum mechanics.

Now my view is that there is this weird potential multi-verse thing from which any possibility can come into existence. The act of diverting our conscious awareness outside of ourselves is the mechanism which brings into existence one reality out of all the possibilities contained in the multi-verse. And that reality which comes into existence does so not at the beginning but in the present moment. For the present moment to exist then there must be a history before it and future after it. Therefore the present moment retroactivity selects a past from the multi-verse and sets a future. The past part has the big bang in it.

For me all direction of conscious awareness outside of ourselves results in us existing as human beings in a reality living a life. Hence, until the mind ceases such activity we live and keep being reincarnated. Reincarnation is brought to an end when we detach from our need to direct our conscious awareness outside of ourselves. In essence, we attain a state where we are perfectly satisfied just being a mind. There is no longer any need to find out what we are, where we are, what is going on, why we exist, what else there is, etc.

That end state to me is God or heaven.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
papageorge1
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mr Guitar said:

Went to a southern baptist 'celebration of life' (funeral) yesterday and it was just like all the rest I've observed - just the name of the departed changed. These folks try to make it seem to be 'fun' to be dead - sheesh! I, for the life of me, cannot figure out why people can't just accept the fact that they die and go in the ground and rot like other biological entities like squirrels and rabbits and leaves and stuff - that is a proven FACT. Heaven and creators and all are just wishful thinking and not factual. If someone could demonstrate where 'heaven' is and what goes on there, it would make things much clearer.

Well, after decades of studying the paranormal and advanced spiritual teachers,  I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that we are entangled with realms/dimensions/planes not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments. The physical-only worldview is untenable after all I have heard and experienced.

So, my studies have made me believe there is something akin to a Baptist heaven in the astral plane and that we even now have an interpenetrating astral body that disconnects from the physical body permanently at death. All other 'living' things have aspects beyond the physical too, which differentiate them from inanimate objects.

So heaven is in planes/dimensions/realms not detectable by our physical senses and instruments designed to give us information about the physical plane. This is quite the universe I would say.

Edited by papageorge1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, after decades of studying the paranormal and advanced spiritual teachers,  I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that we are entangled with realms/dimensions/planes not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments. The physical-only worldview is untenable after all I have heard and experienced.

So, my studies have made me believe there is something akin to a Baptist heaven in the astral plane and that we even now have an interpenetrating astral body that disconnects from the physical body permanently at death. All other 'living' things have aspects beyond the physical too, which differentiate them from inanimate objects.

So heaven is in planes/dimensions/realms not detectable by our physical senses and instruments designed to give us information about the physical plane. This is quite the universe I would say.

Extra dimension, other realms, the multi-verse, I see them all as an attempt to explain the same thing.

I see my reality as deriving from it and the reality in store for me is based on the work remaining that needs to be done to my mind.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guyver
5 hours ago, Mr Guitar said:

Went to a southern baptist 'celebration of life' (funeral) yesterday and it was just like all the rest I've observed - just the name of the departed changed. These folks try to make it seem to be 'fun' to be dead - sheesh! I, for the life of me, cannot figure out why people can't just accept the fact that they die and go in the ground and rot like other biological entities like squirrels and rabbits and leaves and stuff - that is a proven FACT. Heaven and creators and all are just wishful thinking and not factual. If someone could demonstrate where 'heaven' is and what goes on there, it would make things much clearer.

It is a fact that the body dies, and decays.  Yes.  It is not a fact that heaven is an invention of the mind.  That is an opinion.  The Baptist people you encountered were celebrating because their religious belief is that when the body dies, the spirit goes to heaven with God.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pallidin
Posted (edited)

Heaven is in a much higher quantum dimension, I would guess.

Edit: Without specific knowledge, of course.

 

Edited by pallidin
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Guitar
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

It is a fact that the body dies, and decays.  Yes.  It is not a fact that heaven is an invention of the mind.  That is an opinion.  The Baptist people you encountered were celebrating because their religious belief is that when the body dies, the spirit goes to heaven with God.  

Yes, but there must be some factual basis for this belief or, in my eyes, it is flawed. There are a lot of people making themselves feel better by believing in something that may or may not be. I, personally, feel that the spirit (soul, if you will) is the conscious essence of the person and ceases to exist when the neurons quit functioning and there is no more electrical energy. I just can't put any stock into believing in something until it's discovered and proven to exist - until then, it's an invention of the mind along with all the creators of all the human religions that have been put forth  to explain things that are/were 'scary'. It would be cool if dragons existed but until somebody finds one, I treat their existence as a myth, the same as I feel about religion. Probably never find out, though - not sure why we worry so much about it.

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
9 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

I used to think that the universe was created by the big bang until I found out about quantum mechanics.

Now my view is that there is this weird potential multi-verse thing from which any possibility can come into existence. The act of diverting our conscious awareness outside of ourselves is the mechanism which brings into existence one reality out of all the possibilities contained in the multi-verse. And that reality which comes into existence does so not at the beginning but in the present moment. For the present moment to exist then there must be a history before it and future after it. Therefore the present moment retroactivity selects a past from the multi-verse and sets a future. The past part has the big bang in it.

For me all direction of conscious awareness outside of ourselves results in us existing as human beings in a reality living a life. Hence, until the mind ceases such activity we live and keep being reincarnated. Reincarnation is brought to an end when we detach from our need to direct our conscious awareness outside of ourselves. In essence, we attain a state where we are perfectly satisfied just being a mind. There is no longer any need to find out what we are, where we are, what is going on, why we exist, what else there is, etc.

That end state to me is God or heaven.

All I can say is that you don't really know anything about quantum physics and you have fallen for a bunch of crap that has been postulated for the masses.   There is no 'possibility of anything'.  There is a possibility of some things.  And those things are defined within the laws of physics.   However the Universe came into being...it is within the confines of physics...not 'the possibility of anything'.  Otherwise it is just a fluke that the Universe doesn't consist of a bunch of fluffy giraffes.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
5 hours ago, Guyver said:

It is a fact that the body dies, and decays.  Yes.  It is not a fact that heaven is an invention of the mind.  That is an opinion.  The Baptist people you encountered were celebrating because their religious belief is that when the body dies, the spirit goes to heaven with God.  

it is indeed a fact that Heaven and Hell are inventions of the mind.  NOT an opinion...fact!  No one has ever seen heaven and no one has ever seen hell.  Why?  Because dead people ....dead anything...does not come back to life.  That also is an invention of the mind.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guyver
16 minutes ago, joc said:

it is indeed a fact that Heaven and Hell are inventions of the mind.  NOT an opinion...fact!  No one has ever seen heaven and no one has ever seen hell.  Why?  Because dead people ....dead anything...does not come back to life.  That also is an invention of the mind.

That statement is illogical, and possibly completely wrong.  Your statement is illogical because you have projected your own personal experiences on everyone who's ever lived on this planet.  It's not completely dissimilar from saying, well, I can't climb Everest so it can't be climbed.  Just because you can't climb Everest doesn't mean that no one can.  Some people have climbed it more than once.  

PS.  There is evidence that indicates some people have actually died, experienced the afterlife, and returned to life again in this realm.  So, to just dismiss such a thing with a hand waive is also not logical, IMHO.  FWIW.  If after examining ALL the documented cases of near death experiences, and found them all to be cases of misdiagnosis, then you beliefs would be less illogical.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
2 hours ago, Guyver said:

That statement is illogical, and possibly completely wrong.  Your statement is illogical because you have projected your own personal experiences on everyone who's ever lived on this planet.  It's not completely dissimilar from saying, well, I can't climb Everest so it can't be climbed.  Just because you can't climb Everest doesn't mean that no one can.  Some people have climbed it more than once.  

PS.  There is evidence that indicates some people have actually died, experienced the afterlife, and returned to life again in this realm.  So, to just dismiss such a thing with a hand waive is also not logical, IMHO.  FWIW.  If after examining ALL the documented cases of near death experiences, and found them all to be cases of misdiagnosis, then you beliefs would be less illogical.  

The Truth is logical.  No one has ever died and gone to heaven or hell and come back to tell us all about it.  Some people have been close to death and had experiences...but they were not dead.  If in fact they had been dead, they would not have come back to life...and to believe such, and to believe that is logical....THAT is an illogical belief.   I just don't know man, how some people get their heads screwed on so bassackwards!? smh

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guyver
13 minutes ago, joc said:

The Truth is logical.  No one has ever died and gone to heaven or hell and come back to tell us all about it.  

How do you know?  I mean, there is no way for you to know that.  You sure seem to think that, but thinking you’re right and actually being right are two different things.  As I said, there is evidence that contradicts your claims.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
1 minute ago, Guyver said:

How do you know?  I mean, there is no way for you to know that.  You sure seem to think that, but thinking you’re right and actually being right are two different things.  As I said, there is evidence that contradicts your claims.  

No...there is not any 'evidence'.   He said/she said/they said....is not evidence.  There is the same 'evidence' that some people can bend spoons with their mind...and levitate objects in mid air.  They can't.  How do I know that?  It's called Gravity!  Listen to yourself!  You honestly think that dead people...come back to life?   I mean, You sure seem to think that, but thinking you’re right and actually being right are two different things.   I live in the real world.  Probably not as fun as your fantasy world but...I'll stick with the real world, thanks.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guyver
9 hours ago, joc said:

No...there is not any 'evidence'.   He said/she said/they said....is not evidence.  There is the same 'evidence' that some people can bend spoons with their mind...and levitate objects in mid air.  They can't.  How do I know that?  It's called Gravity!  Listen to yourself!  You honestly think that dead people...come back to life?   I mean, You sure seem to think that, but thinking you’re right and actually being right are two different things.   I live in the real world.  Probably not as fun as your fantasy world but...I'll stick with the real world, thanks.

I think that because I understand what evidence is.  Apparently you are quite uniformed on this topic, and therefore are completely unaware how much actual scientific study has been done in this regard and the tremendous volume of actual evidence that does exist, much of which speaks directly against the points you continually repeat which are not factual.  Are you familiar with the term EEG?

EEG is a term that refers to medical devices which are able to record the electrical activity in the brain.  It is well known and accepted by science as a valid means of measurement in this regard, having been in use for nearly a hundred years now.  link

An EEG is such a sensitive medical device that it can record when a person dies, referred to as brain death. link

When a persons heart and brain function have completely ceased and they no longer have electrical activity in their body - they are dead.  They are dead as a doornob, they are as dead as dead ever is.  You claim that it is impossible for a person to return to life from the dead.  Yet, in the over 3,500 cases that have been studied in the NDE phenomenon, this has occurred on more than one occasion.  

So, a person has been in a clinical setting, died - the record of their death captured on medical devices which do in fact measure "life" as we know it, and they have occasionally returned to describe the experience they have had.  There is no problem with the data, the data is real.  There is a problem with the interpretation of the data, which leaves the phenomenon an "unknown" or unexplained event, with "possible" explanations of the phenomenon being offered by those scientists who study the cases.  

So, to say that there is no evidence of this is simply incorrect.  The fact is that you are mistaken.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

I think that because I understand what evidence is.  Apparently you are quite uniformed on this topic, and therefore are completely unaware how much actual scientific study has been done in this regard and the tremendous volume of actual evidence that does exist, much of which speaks directly against the points you continually repeat which are not factual.  Are you familiar with the term EEG?

EEG is a term that refers to medical devices which are able to record the electrical activity in the brain.  It is well known and accepted by science as a valid means of measurement in this regard, having been in use for nearly a hundred years now.  link

An EEG is such a sensitive medical device that it can record when a person dies, referred to as brain death. link

When a persons heart and brain function have completely ceased and they no longer have electrical activity in their body - they are dead.  They are dead as a doornob, they are as dead as dead ever is.  You claim that it is impossible for a person to return to life from the dead.  Yet, in the over 3,500 cases that have been studied in the NDE phenomenon, this has occurred on more than one occasion.  

So, a person has been in a clinical setting, died - the record of their death captured on medical devices which do in fact measure "life" as we know it, and they have occasionally returned to describe the experience they have had.  There is no problem with the data, the data is real.  There is a problem with the interpretation of the data, which leaves the phenomenon an "unknown" or unexplained event, with "possible" explanations of the phenomenon being offered by those scientists who study the cases.  

So, to say that there is no evidence of this is simply incorrect.  The fact is that you are mistaken.  

 

Near death experience (clinical death) the brain stops functioning and a life can still be saved at this point depending on other factors of course, but it is not the equivalent of biological death, in biological death, the body goes through the death process which is the organs/ bodily systems begin to shut down and it is at this point there is no turning back. 

Another caveat is at this state in our human development there is no evidence that the soul is transmigratory let alone an actual thing this has not been established beyond subjective opinions. 

I think there is a lot more to be worked out before we can make the leap to there is life after death, or that the stories told are anything more than subjective phenomenon and how does one weed out that these type of occurrences are not just hearsay? How do we control for this? 

According to UDDA: 

"The Uniform Determination of Death Act (UDDA) is a model state law that was approved for the United States in 1981 by the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws, in cooperation with the American Medical Association, the American Bar Association, and the President's Commission for the Study of Ethical Problems in Medicine and Biomedical and Behavioral Research. The act has since been adopted by most US states and is intended "to provide a comprehensive and medically sound basis for determining death in all situations".[1] Brain death is a different condition than persistent vegetative state.[2] Due to better seat belt use, bicycle helmets, and the general decrease in violent crime, there are lower numbers of brain deaths now than historically. Donation after cardiac death (DCD) is a new protocol applied when there is severe neurologic injury but the patient does not meet the criteria for brain death.

The three sections of the Act proposed for enactment read as follows .[3]:"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Determination_of_Death_Act

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

Guyver

Whoever communicates physically has not yet died.

There are no communications from the dead that are accepted as genuine by the scientific community. Only communications from living people are accepted as genuine by the scientific community.

To characterize a living person's recollection of an experience as "near death" is argumentative, an attempt to gloss over by shrewdly chosen words that the informant has never actually experienced death.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
15 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Guyver

Whoever communicates physically has not yet died.

There are no communications from the dead that are accepted as genuine by the scientific community. Only communications from living people are accepted as genuine by the scientific community.

To characterize a living person's recollection of an experience as "near death" is argumentative, an attempt to gloss over by shrewdly chosen words that the informant has never actually experienced death.

Indeed Paul, it really is that simple.

Dead men do not talk. 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RabidMongoose
17 hours ago, joc said:

All I can say is that you don't really know anything about quantum physics and you have fallen for a bunch of crap that has been postulated for the masses.   There is no 'possibility of anything'.  There is a possibility of some things.  And those things are defined within the laws of physics.   However the Universe came into being...it is within the confines of physics...not 'the possibility of anything'.  Otherwise it is just a fluke that the Universe doesn't consist of a bunch of fluffy giraffes.

I completely disagree. With my own spiritual development I have realised my mind is the centre-piece and brings into existence reality wherever my conscious awareness is projected.

How do I know? Visualisation exercises. If I spend a hour picturing a place until picturing becomes automatic I can then sit back and let my mind run the show. And I know when it kicks in my mind projects my conscious awareness to that place and I experience being there. 

Its like your mind being wired up to two realities at the same time - here and the one where your mind is projecting your conscious awareness. Each is just as real as each other. The other reality is just as real as the once you are sat there experiencing right now.

Quantum Mechanics says all possible possibilities co-exist until wavefunction collapse. You could go to a planet in another star system as see woolly giraffes. They are possible, there will be realities where they exist.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
Posted (edited)

@eightbits

One more thing, I can understand the idea of something beyond death can be positive, maybe even personally empowering, maybe even create the climate on a personal level that mistakes can be learned from and growth is always possible.

For me, this is the golden yummy of the reincarnation idea. 

The Tibetan buddhists IMH subjective opine define reincarnation along the lines of the western idea of an old soul. Not that we really have souls that are old and come back, but it is a metaphor for those that just seem wiser and more enlightened than others, and it can seem like they are just born that way. 

Of course, this is my subjective take, but in the land of humans the idea can be viable in that  these folks seem to ego identify ( can set it aside a bit more effortlessly) than the rest of us. 

Just my two cents. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eight bits

Sheri

I've always liked what I'm told is a Tibetan Buddhist idea about dogs as vessels for those souls who have all but attained enlightenment in their previous incarnation, and now need only one last short tour earthside before being completely finished.

I could be persuaded :) .

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
14 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Sheri

I've always liked what I'm told is a Tibetan Buddhist idea about dogs as vessels for those souls who have all but attained enlightenment in their previous incarnation, and now need only one last short tour earthside before being completely finished.

I could be persuaded :) .

Awww, You got a big smile on that one.

For the love of our furry relatives. 

Especially rescues I have heard, they are little angels sent from a special doggy notch on the karmic wheel. 

Is it coincidence that a little white furry maltipoo found his way to a very grateful stressed out caregiver and gave her undying support and devotion and a sense of I have your back and will be by your side unconditionally. I think not. Lol 

I too could be persuaded, our little Zenny is quite the enlightened master in our home, subjectively of course. Winks. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw

Since we are musing, perhaps we live our lives, over and over again, until we finally get it "right" before moving on. As for what e b said about dogs, perhaps all dogs do go to heaven, but I've seen too many who's lives, here on earth, were hell.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Podo

At about 4:30, on a boat, fishing.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
5 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

I completely disagree. With my own spiritual development I have realised my mind is the centre-piece and brings into existence reality wherever my conscious awareness is projected.

How do I know? Visualisation exercises. If I spend a hour picturing a place until picturing becomes automatic I can then sit back and let my mind run the show. And I know when it kicks in my mind projects my conscious awareness to that place and I experience being there. 

Its like your mind being wired up to two realities at the same time - here and the one where your mind is projecting your conscious awareness. Each is just as real as each other. The other reality is just as real as the once you are sat there experiencing right now.

Quantum Mechanics says all possible possibilities co-exist until wavefunction collapse. You could go to a planet in another star system as see woolly giraffes. They are possible, there will be realities where they exist.

Back to reality...where ever you go in your mind...it is a mental journey...it is not 'real'.  It's called imagination...geeze.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.