Where Is Heaven?

[+joc]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

I think that because I understand what evidence is.  Apparently you are quite uniformed on this topic, and therefore are completely unaware how much actual scientific study has been done in this regard and the tremendous volume of actual evidence that does exist, much of which speaks directly against the points you continually repeat which are not factual.  Are you familiar with the term EEG?

EEG is a term that refers to medical devices which are able to record the electrical activity in the brain.  It is well known and accepted by science as a valid means of measurement in this regard, having been in use for nearly a hundred years now.  link

An EEG is such a sensitive medical device that it can record when a person dies, referred to as brain death. link

When a persons heart and brain function have completely ceased and they no longer have electrical activity in their body - they are dead.  They are dead as a doornob, they are as dead as dead ever is.  You claim that it is impossible for a person to return to life from the dead.  Yet, in the over 3,500 cases that have been studied in the NDE phenomenon, this has occurred on more than one occasion.  

So, a person has been in a clinical setting, died - the record of their death captured on medical devices which do in fact measure "life" as we know it, and they have occasionally returned to describe the experience they have had.  There is no problem with the data, the data is real.  There is a problem with the interpretation of the data, which leaves the phenomenon an "unknown" or unexplained event, with "possible" explanations of the phenomenon being offered by those scientists who study the cases.  

So, to say that there is no evidence of this is simply incorrect.  The fact is that you are mistaken.  

 

Definitions....nothing more...did it ever occur to you that if people keep popping back up that maybe there is something wrong with the definition?  There are those who are known as beating heart cadavers...brain dead, as you say, but their hearts are still beating.    The actual definition of death isn't as constant or cast in stone as you think.  I am not arguing that people who were thought to be dead weren't in fact.  But you arguing they were...I don't believe it.  Believe whatever you wish....I choose to believe that dead is in fact dead...and if you appear to be dead and then spontaneously begin breathing again and regain consciousness....then you really were not dead...only seeming to be dead.  There is an explanation within the laws of physics as to why nde occurs.  But when you are dead....you ain't coming back to life.   It is as simple as that...and I am not really going to argue a false premise such as yours any longer.

[Guyver]

9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Near death experience (clinical death) the brain stops functioning and a life can still be saved at this point depending on other factors of course, but it is not the equivalent of biological death, in biological death, the body goes through the death process which is the organs/ bodily systems begin to shut down and it is at this point there is no turning back. 

Another caveat is at this state in our human development there is no evidence that the soul is transmigratory let alone an actual thing this has not been established beyond subjective opinions. 

I think there is a lot more to be worked out before we can make the leap to there is life after death, or that the stories told are anything more than subjective phenomenon and how does one weed out that these type of occurrences are not just hearsay? How do we control for this? 

I understand your points and have no criticism.  I just want to go on record and be clear that I’m not suggesting life after death is proven, or angels, or heaven or even God for that matter.  I admit these things are not only not proven, they are not provable - most likely.  I’m just expressing the fact that evidence for it does exist.  

So, I don’t really want to throw down the semantics card, but it should be played.  People have to define terms in any endeavor, but especially when precision is necessary.  For example, what do you think proven even means?  What can be proven?  It’s a difficult thing to begin with, but especially when people have different ideas about what it means.  I’m not sure there’s really any proving anything really, and obviously, there’s reason in my mind for this.  You may have a different opinion than I do about what it means to prove something.

We can choose the common usage and apply that, and even add the scientific method to it, and say that proving something is possible because we can control parameters and test for it.  Something that is reliable, and consistent can be considered proven.  But this is a somewhat illusory view because in reality there’s no absolutes.

Maybe the only absolute is that there really are no absolutes. 

 

[psyche101]

On 05/03/2018 at 7:52 AM, Mr Guitar said:

Yes, but there must be some factual basis for this belief or, in my eyes, it is flawed. There are a lot of people making themselves feel better by believing in something that may or may not be. I, personally, feel that the spirit (soul, if you will) is the conscious essence of the person and ceases to exist when the neurons quit functioning and there is no more electrical energy. I just can't put any stock into believing in something until it's discovered and proven to exist - until then, it's an invention of the mind along with all the creators of all the human religions that have been put forth  to explain things that are/were 'scary'. It would be cool if dragons existed but until somebody finds one, I treat their existence as a myth, the same as I feel about religion. Probably never find out, though - not sure why we worry so much about it.

 

There's no factual basis at all. It strikes me as an embarrassing aspect of culture that we seem to adopt without question. Having imaginary tea parties into adulthood, or pretending the Easter Bunny is real despite actually knowing better so one can get chocolate eggs for life. This vengeful jealous God has been personified as some sort of gatekeeper to the afterlife and demands his minions jump upon command, and for many who just do more understand science, this simple fairy tale is the easiest option to ensure this adult imaginary gatekeeper remains sated and will personally recognise (and this is where insecurities about not being important kick in) the faithful minion and grant access to this afterlife. 

It takes effort to understand the Cutting edge of science, not only that but so many disciplines cover this subject. Chemistry, biology, physics and astronomy all hold aspects to understanding this universe and all that is in it. The average person is not inclined to pursue those studies in earnest and indeed, specislists in those fields devote entire lifetimes to just one subject to understand it as well as one possibly can. And many seem to be greatly offended that these people in fact do have real answers which successfully fill these voids of ignorance - pride,  stupid pride. So many go with what is easy for them to grasp  and having religion indoctrinated via upbringing or the permeating aspects of society  billboards, TV, money, pledges of God save whatever. Its an easy out in short,  and some find that attractive. 

Some even claim to be authorities in spiritual or religious matters, I'm sure you've met people and posters 'who know' or rather claim that is the case. I'm sure you can see why they would hate science with a passion for removing their elevated status as religious and or spiritual 'experts' when all that is really happening is their BS is being called out. 

Its one giant appeal to authority. If we had not experienced religion and just one person on earth or even just ten were to suddenly start ranting on about some man who is the offspring of a deity and makes fishes and loves of bread appear or could walk on water, that person would be psychiatricly evaluated just like someone today claiming to be Napoleon. 

Because millions of people do it nobody bats an eyelid, but the absurdity remains to perplex many such as you and I. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

Where Is Heaven?

 

I always thought it was where the tops of her thighs meet.....

[+Sherapy]

45 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I understand your points and have no criticism.  I just want to go on record and be clear that I’m not suggesting life after death is proven, or angels, or heaven or even God for that matter.  I admit these things are not only not proven, they are not provable - most likely.  I’m just expressing the fact that evidence for it does exist.  

So, I don’t really want to throw down the semantics card, but it should be played.  People have to define terms in any endeavor, but especially when precision is necessary.  For example, what do you think proven even means?  What can be proven?  It’s a difficult thing to begin with, but especially when people have different ideas about what it means.  I’m not sure there’s really any proving anything really, and obviously, there’s reason in my mind for this.  You may have a different opinion than I do about what it means to prove something.

We can choose the common usage and apply that, and even add the scientific method to it, and say that proving something is possible because we can control parameters and test for it.  Something that is reliable, and consistent can be considered proven.  But this is a somewhat illusory view because in reality there’s no absolutes.

Maybe the only absolute is that there really are no absolutes. 

 

In this case, brain dead is considered clinical death, you can be clinically dead brain dead and still be biologically alive. I think when we are speaking of evidence of near death experiences we are speaking about clinical death. Those that come out of ccomas or induced comas or pass out, or have strokes, or lose consciousness, lose oxygen ...

Under the UDDA guidelines brain dead is also a cause of death if you don't wake up, or don't get saved, but in biological death no such possibility exists. Once the process of death begins biologically it is a matter of how fast the body shuts down. We can predict this based on certain things that happen to us all if  we don't get lucky and get a instantaneous death. 

Speaking of near death experience, I do not have an issue that the brain goes into a dream like state and hallucinates white lights etc. but in biological death there is no come back to life. 

I think the distinction lies here. 

That yes, folks being labeled clinically dead get revived, or being near death and being resurrected. Of course this happens. 

But one will not find this in biological death. 

"Death is the cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism."

I have worked as a Hospice caregiver two of my patients died, I have seen the process of death up close and personal. It is final.

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

5 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

Where Is Heaven?

 

I always thought it was where the tops of her thighs meet.....

Well well well look at what the cat dragged in.

Great to see you Joe!

[Mr Walker]

On 05/03/2018 at 1:32 AM, Mr Guitar said:

Went to a southern baptist 'celebration of life' (funeral) yesterday and it was just like all the rest I've observed - just the name of the departed changed. These folks try to make it seem to be 'fun' to be dead - sheesh! I, for the life of me, cannot figure out why people can't just accept the fact that they die and go in the ground and rot like other biological entities like squirrels and rabbits and leaves and stuff - that is a proven FACT. Heaven and creators and all are just wishful thinking and not factual. If someone could demonstrate where 'heaven' is and what goes on there, it would make things much clearer.

Well most people would prefer to be having fun, than to be no longer self aware. Why would anyone choose a belief that death meant non existence, when they can chose one that creates a glorious eternal life, where one fights enemies all day, preparing for the final battle,  and drinks ale, surrounded by busty wenches, all night ?  I know which I prefer  

[Jodie.Lynne]

Its good to see you too Sheri! I'm glad someone remembers me.

[psyche101]

13 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

Where Is Heaven?

 

I always thought it was where the tops of her thighs meet.....

I imagine it being some nightclub in the clouds, God being a DJ and all. 

[psyche101]

57 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I understand your points and have no criticism.  I just want to go on record and be clear that I’m not suggesting life after death is proven, or angels, or heaven or even God for that matter.  I admit these things are not only not proven, they are not provable - most likely.  I’m just expressing the fact that evidence for it does exist.  

So, I don’t really want to throw down the semantics card, but it should be played.  People have to define terms in any endeavor, but especially when precision is necessary.  For example, what do you think proven even means?  What can be proven?  It’s a difficult thing to begin with, but especially when people have different ideas about what it means.  I’m not sure there’s really any proving anything really, and obviously, there’s reason in my mind for this.  You may have a different opinion than I do about what it means to prove something.

We can choose the common usage and apply that, and even add the scientific method to it, and say that proving something is possible because we can control parameters and test for it.  Something that is reliable, and consistent can be considered proven.  But this is a somewhat illusory view because in reality there’s no absolutes.

Maybe the only absolute is that there really are no absolutes. 

 

The plural of anecdote is not 'evidence'

[Mr Walker]

On 05/03/2018 at 0:36 PM, joc said:

it is indeed a fact that Heaven and Hell are inventions of the mind.  NOT an opinion...fact!  No one has ever seen heaven and no one has ever seen hell.  Why?  Because dead people ....dead anything...does not come back to life.  That also is an invention of the mind.

There are many things in the universe which humans have never seen or experienced, and yet exist.  Lack of experience in anything, and hence lack of evidence for its existence,  is not proof of its non existence.

  Molecules and atoms  have always existed, yet humans knew nothing about them for most of our existence. 

A dead person could be brought back to life, in every practical sense, if their body had been cloned, and their mind stored in a computer, prior to their death.

What are "we" but bodies and consciousness, and even the body is not as essential as the conscious self awareness, for our existence.

My thoughts are, that human consciousnesses might be stored on death, in a giant artificial intelligence, thus potentially enabling their restoration in the future. I do not believe in heaven and hell, except as states of mind we generate for ourselves.  And, if such stored memories existed, they would be existing as fixed memories of their past lives, maybe not even aware that they were dead.  It is more likely that they are simply stored, without self awareness, ready to be put into a new host and switched back on, some time in the future  .      

[psyche101]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

There are many things in the universe which humans have never seen or experienced, and yet exist.  Lack of experience in anything, and hence lack of evidence for its existence,  is not proof of its non existence.

  Molecules and atoms  have always existed, yet humans knew nothing about them for most of our existence. 

A dead person could be brought back to life, in every practical sense, if their body had been cloned, and their mind stored in a computer, prior to their death.

What are "we" but bodies and consciousness, and even the body is not as essential as the conscious self awareness, for our existence.

My thoughts are, that human consciousnesses might be stored on death, in a giant artificial intelligence, thus potentially enabling their restoration in the future. I do not believe in heaven and hell, except as states of mind we generate for ourselves.  And, if such stored memories existed, they would be existing as fixed memories of their past lives, maybe not even aware that they were dead.  It is more likely that they are simply stored, without self awareness, ready to be put into a new host and switched back on, some time in the future  .      

Just because someone can imagine a thing does not mean its likely or possible. 

[Mr Walker]

22 hours ago, joc said:

No...there is not any 'evidence'.   He said/she said/they said....is not evidence.  There is the same 'evidence' that some people can bend spoons with their mind...and levitate objects in mid air.  They can't.  How do I know that?  It's called Gravity!  Listen to yourself!  You honestly think that dead people...come back to life?   I mean, You sure seem to think that, but thinking you’re right and actually being right are two different things.   I live in the real world.  Probably not as fun as your fantasy world but...I'll stick with the real world, thanks.

Its easy to levitate things into the air. We lift whole trains using electro magnetics, and whole planes using  Bernouli's theories and the effect of a curved wing.  I've watched people levitate using jet  back packs and water propulsion  

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Just because someone can imagine a thing does not mean its likely or possible. 

Doesn't mean it is impossible, either. All human science and technology begins with the  human capacity to imagine and extrapolate.  My point is that, what we often think of as miracles, are actually applications of science, and as human science progresses, what would once have been thought miraculous, becomes merely mundane  . 

To me, after a lifetime of reading,I can't think of a single thing that  i can imagine which would be physically  IMPOSSIBLE, given enough science and technology.

  Some things might take a century to achieve like human teleportation. Others might take longer like terraforming a solar system  and it might take  a millennia or two for other things like exploration of the local galaxy.   Human immortality, through the storage and transfer of consciousness, is achievable in quite a short time span,  like 100 years or so, given current progress in the area, as is matter transfer. 

All we have to do is ensure the survival of our species, and its technological base, and there is no  practical or theoretical limit to the potential of beings like humans  Given enough time, we will be travelling through wormholes and shaping the universe itself. However, our physical forms might no longer be recognisable as human, as we genetically modify, and shape, our bodies to other environments .   

[Hre2breal]

On 3/5/2018 at 3:06 PM, joc said:

it is indeed a fact that Heaven and Hell are inventions of the mind.  NOT an opinion...fact!  No one has ever seen heaven and no one has ever seen hell.  Why?  Because dead people ....dead anything...does not come back to life.  That also is an invention of the mind.

Now these are more beliefs than your so called Fact..How do you know no ones been to heaven or hell?? Where is your facts...where is your edvidence of this.

[psyche101]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Doesn't mean it is impossible, either. All human science and technology begins with the  human capacity to imagine and extrapolate.  My point is that, what we often think of as miracles, are actually applications of science, and as human science progresses, what would once have been thought miraculous, becomes merely mundane  . 

To me, after a lifetime of reading,I can't think of a single thing that  i can imagine which would be physically  IMPOSSIBLE, given enough science and technology.

  Some things might take a century to achieve like human teleportation. Others might take longer like terraforming a solar system  and it might take  a millennia or two for other things like exploration of the local galaxy.   Human immortality, through the storage and transfer of consciousness, is achievable in quite a short time span,  like 100 years or so, given current progress in the area, as is matter transfer. 

All we have to do is ensure the survival of our species, and its technological base, and there is no  practical or theoretical limit to the potential of beings like humans  Given enough time, we will be travelling through wormholes and shaping the universe itself. However, our physical forms might no longer be recognisable as human, as we genetically modify, and shape, our bodies to other environments .   

Science and technology don't lend themselves to superstition 

If I asked you to grow wings and fly to the sun with them and take a stroll on the surface today, that would be impossible. If I asked you to post my little brothers middle name in the next hour, you couldn't do that either. 

Realising limitations is not a bad thing. 

[Hre2breal]

38 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

In this case, brain dead is considered clinical death, you can be clinically dead brain dead and still be biologically alive. I think when we are speaking of evidence of near death experiences we are speaking about clinical death. Those that come out of ccomas or induced comas or pass out, or have strokes, or lose consciousness, lose oxygen ...

Under the UDDA guidelines brain dead is also a cause of death if you don't wake up, or don't get saved, but in biological death no such possibility exists. Once the process of death begins biologically it is a matter of how fast the body shuts down. We can predict this based on certain things that happen to us all if  we don't get lucky and get a instantaneous death. 

Speaking of near death experience, I do not have an issue that the brain goes into a dream like state and hallucinates white lights etc. but in biological death there is no come back to life. 

I think the distinction lies here. 

That yes, folks being labeled clinically dead get revived, or being near death and being resurrected. Of course this happens. 

But one will not find this in biological death. 

"Death is the cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism."

I have worked as a Hospice caregiver two of my patients died, I have seen the process of death up close and personal. It is final.

 

Braian dead people are just that zero activity in the brain..Body still functioning as in they still have a pulse....NDE..can have no pulse, heart stopped ,body functiion Zero.. clinically an biologically dead...the only thing that differs is how long they are in this state...

 

[+joc]

10 minutes ago, Hre2breal said:

Now these are more beliefs than your so called Fact..How do you know no ones been to heaven or hell?? Where is your facts...where is your edvidence of this.

Have you ever known anyone personally who died?   Have you ever known anyone who died and then came back to life?   I'm sure you have heard stories of those who have...but have you ever known anyone who died and was resurrected in the very real sense of the word?   

Dead is dead.  You cannot be living and dead at the same time.  You are either living or dead.  There is no 'sweet spot' between the two.  It is just a belief I seem to have that dead people don't come back to life.  My Uncle died...didn't come back to life.  My best friend died...didn't come back to life.   Nor did a large number of people who I knew that died.  In fact...no one I have ever known has ever come back to life.  In fact...no one I know has ever known anyone who has ever come back to life.   Therefore...it isn't hard to conclude that dead people don't come back to life...despite what the NDE crowd says.  So...if no one has ever died and come back....how could we know such a place exists?  It is a manmade concept.  And....Hell is a relatively new concept....it isn't even mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible.

Edited March 6, 2018 by joc

[+joc]

46 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

In this case, brain dead is considered clinical death, you can be clinically dead brain dead and still be biologically alive. I think when we are speaking of evidence of near death experiences we are speaking about clinical death. Those that come out of ccomas or induced comas or pass out, or have strokes, or lose consciousness, lose oxygen ...

Under the UDDA guidelines brain dead is also a cause of death if you don't wake up, or don't get saved, but in biological death no such possibility exists. Once the process of death begins biologically it is a matter of how fast the body shuts down. We can predict this based on certain things that happen to us all if  we don't get lucky and get a instantaneous death. 

Speaking of near death experience, I do not have an issue that the brain goes into a dream like state and hallucinates white lights etc. but in biological death there is no come back to life. 

I think the distinction lies here. 

That yes, folks being labeled clinically dead get revived, or being near death and being resurrected. Of course this happens. 

But one will not find this in biological death. 

"Death is the cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism."

I have worked as a Hospice caregiver two of my patients died, I have seen the process of death up close and personal. It is final.

 

Thank you!  Beautifully stated.

[Mr Walker]

Just now, psyche101 said:

Science and technology don't lend themselves to superstition 

If I asked you to grow wings and fly to the sun with them and take a stroll on the surface today, that would be impossible. If I asked you to post my little brothers middle name in the next hour, you couldn't do that either. 

Realising limitations is not a bad thing. 

The limitations of modern science do not apply to future science.  History  shows us this  

One day humans will do the equivalent of "strolling on the surface of the sun"  even though it has no actual surface. All it would take is a powerful energy shield  and a means of propulsion   This really only requires compete understanding of and control over the nature of energy and matter, combined with a sufficiently powerful energy source  (which the sun itself would potentially supply )   

it is a bit hard to accurately project when such a thing might be possible, but again, given the progress in current work on energy fields and shielding,  I don't think it would be more than 2-300 years before humans will be physically able to visit the surface of the sun  However, it also possible that  science might advance in other  ways, which mean this is no longer required, such as the projection of consciousness so a human could remotely view the sun.   

[psyche101]

Just now, joc said:

Have you ever known anyone personally who died?   Have you ever known anyone who died and then came back to life?   I'm sure you have heard stories of those who have...but have you ever known anyone who died and was resurrected in the very real since of the word?   

Dead is dead.  You cannot be living and dead at the same time.  You are either living or dead.  There is no 'sweet spot' between the two.  It is just a belief I seem to have that dead people don't come back to life.  My Uncle died...didn't come back to life.  My best friend died...didn't come back to life.   Nor did a large number of people who I knew that died.  In fact...no one I have ever known has ever come back to life.  In fact...no one I know has ever known anyone who has ever come back to life.   Therefore...it isn't hard to conclude that dead people don't come back to life...despite what the NDE crowd says.  So...if no one has ever died and come back....how could we know such a place exists?  It is a manmade concept.  And....Hell is a relatively new concept....it isn't even mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible.

Senses shutting down individually well explain the NDE claims IMHO. Hearing being one of the last to go. People can still record what's going on around them in this state. 

[Hre2breal]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

Have you ever known anyone personally who died?   Have you ever known anyone who died and then came back to life?   I'm sure you have heard stories of those who have...but have you ever known anyone who died and was resurrected in the very real since of the word?   

Dead is dead.  You cannot be living and dead at the same time.  You are either living or dead.  There is no 'sweet spot' between the two.  It is just a belief I seem to have that dead people don't come back to life.  My Uncle died...didn't come back to life.  My best friend died...didn't come back to life.   Nor did a large number of people who I knew that died.  In fact...no one I have ever known has ever come back to life.  In fact...no one I know has ever known anyone who has ever come back to life.   Therefore...it isn't hard to conclude that dead people don't come back to life...despite what the NDE crowd says.  So...if no one has ever died and come back....how could we know such a place exists?  It is a manmade concept.  And....Hell is a relatively new concept....it isn't even mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible.

You didnt answer the question..you just asked me another five or six...to answer your question the answer is Yes...I do know someone who was dead an had a nde an was resuccitated...Now can you answer my question...

[Guyver]

2 hours ago, joc said:

Definitions....nothing more...did it ever occur to you that if people keep popping back up that maybe there is something wrong with the definition?  There are those who are known as beating heart cadavers...brain dead, as you say, but their hearts are still beating.    The actual definition of death isn't as constant or cast in stone as you think.  I am not arguing that people who were thought to be dead weren't in fact.  But you arguing they were...I don't believe it.  Believe whatever you wish....I choose to believe that dead is in fact dead...and if you appear to be dead and then spontaneously begin breathing again and regain consciousness....then you really were not dead...only seeming to be dead.  There is an explanation within the laws of physics as to why nde occurs.  But when you are dead....you ain't coming back to life.   It is as simple as that...and I am not really going to argue a false premise such as yours any longer.

Well, see that’s what it comes down to - believing.  That’s what people do - they believe.  Everyone believes.  Some people just believe that their thinking is right.  It’s easy to convince oneself of things; even when one doesn’t know it.  

In any event, I’m not saying I believe it or don’t believe it.  I’m saying that there is evidence for it, because there is.  Now, you may not like the evidence, or you may not believe it, and that is your right....everyone interprets, that’s what we do - we interpret our reality.  But to say there’s no evidence is just not real.  I don’t really care, and I’m not that interested in debating it...cause I don’t really give a rip about whatever other people believe.  I consider it the basic right that a person can believe whatever they want to.

My own belief is that one should question everything, but actually look into what your questioning objectively.  And that is difficult, it’s hard to be completely objective because it’s so natural to be influenced by ones surroundings.  Anyway, I do believe there is something to it and I’m open because of my own experiences.  I saw a guy die firsthand.  I watched him take his dying breath.  We die with our eyes open.

I don’t deny that death is real.  But I think it possible that there is another form of existence, and maybe it’s expressed in religion in the form of the afterlife.  Whatever it is, it’s the perpetuation of consciousness.  At least how I see it as potentially existing.....but what the hell do I know?  I only know what I have experienced and what I think.

that, and sometimes my golf game sucks.

[+joc]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Senses shutting down individually well explain the NDE claims IMHO. Hearing being one of the last to go. People can still record what's going on around them in this state. 

I agree...and it comes to my mind how I have been in a very deep sleep and suddenly...for no apparent reason woke up.

How can one be in REM and suddenly wake up without any outside interference...noises, touches, etc.?  Whatever causes that...I presume something similar is responsible for 'waking' these individuals out of the death phase.

[+joc]

16 minutes ago, Hre2breal said:

Now these are more beliefs than your so called Fact..How do you know no ones been to heaven or hell?? Where is your facts...where is your edvidence of this.

 

3 minutes ago, Hre2breal said:

You didnt answer the question..you just asked me another five or six...to answer your question the answer is Yes...I do know someone who was dead an had a nde an was resuccitated...Now can you answer my question...

No one has ever died and come back to tell us about heaven or hell.  That is pretty darn strong evidence..since these are both places that one has to 'die' to experience.  So what is your evidence that there is such a place?