Critically ill man is former Russian spy

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

that's because they're making it up, as they are about everything else. 

Really ? So Sergei Skripal and Yulia aren't ACTUALLY in hospital in a virtual coma ? And the combined medical experts in that hospital have NOT diagnosed a nerve  poison ? And a policeman wasn't taken ill as well ? (but recovered). It's ALL made up ? Phew.. what a relief  

1 hour ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

^ Besides, according to the above, this Russian Chemical Weapons Whistleblower may be a complete fraud, since not even the experts of Porton Down - who I'd put more faith in than the blitherings of politicians - seem to doubt that the whole alleged "program" actually existed at all.

Then how come the diagnosed the 'substance' as being part of the Novachock family ? That seems an AWFULLY specific analysis, for a substance that didn't exist  

Now, my original puzzlement was this; how could Putin authorise such an OBVIOUS and BLATANT assassination attempt, knowing full well that it would be obvious that the Russian State was involved. But now I'm starting to understand why he thought he could get away with it. 

Because the "Left" in this country will blame it on the Americans, the British, the Israeli's... ANYONE but on the Russians. Look at the smokescreen of conspiracy theories that are being spun here already. what more do you need ? A fur hat and an empty bottle of vodka ? Sheesh. 

[bee]

1 minute ago, Setton said:

@Vlad the Mighty and @bee, let's entertain for a moment this conspiracy that the British government is responsible. Why would they leave the Skripals alive? If the aim is to paint Russia as the villain, what benefit would botching the assassination bring? 

The British Govt itself might not be responsible - but they could be making political capital over it all and furthering the demonizing
and isolating of Russia - if someone else did it..... ? .... that's one possibility if elements of the establishment aren't behind it -

it is curious that with the nerve agent said to be so deadly and military grade - that it didn't even kill anyone... 

 

[bee]

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Really ? So Sergei Skripal and Yulia aren't ACTUALLY in hospital in a virtual coma ? And the combined medical experts in that hospital have NOT diagnosed a nerve  poison ? And a policeman wasn't taken ill as well ? (but recovered). It's ALL made up ? Phew.. what a relief  

 

yeah phew......   

how do we know they're not sitting in bed in a private hospital somewhere eating strawberry jelly - reading magazines and 
looking forward to spending all the money they have made by volunteering for a political drama where they get a bit poorly
but are in no danger of dying.... 

 

[RoofGardener]

15 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Britain's Prime Minister Ms.May and her blustering little spittle-flying, hair-flying-wildly tame poodle Boris have been lying through their teeth, it seems.

Not so Vlad. The chemical may have been originally developed in Uzbekistan, but it was moved to Krasnoarmeysk near Moscow just before the break up of the Soviet Union. 

So - against the odds -  Theresa and Boris might be telling the truth after all. Sorry if that doesn't match up with the liberal anti-Western dialectic narrative.  

[Space Commander Travis]

8 minutes ago, Setton said:

@Vlad the Mighty and @bee, let's entertain for a moment this conspiracy that the British government is responsible. Why would they leave the Skripals alive? If the aim is to paint Russia as the villain, what benefit would botching the assassination bring? 

Let's think about that from another angle; if it was Putin's Assassin, with a Terror Poison of an unprecedented scale of effectiveness, which only the Russians could have made, why would this ex-spook still be alive? It seems either a pretty inept assassin, or this Terror Poisson isn't actually all it's made out to be. Would they be likely to run the risk of him being able to describe his attacker, if indeed there ever was one? Has any suggestion  been made of anyone being identified as the possible would-be Assassin? Has anyone been reported skulking furtively around anywhere this fairly low-level ex-spook had been? Why leap to the assumption that it must have been an agent of a malign foreign government based purely on the very flimsy assumption that, well, he was a former Russian spook so therefore obviously, well, it must have been Putin mustn't it. Because there's nothing the governments of the West would like than to further sabotage relations with Russia? Because that reinforces the narrative they've been trying so hard to push for years now that Russia is the Great Enemy that's to blame for everything? It's extremely handy to have a great big scapegoat , and by staging a botched assassination of a fairly unimportant ex-spook that you can pin on them, that serves their aims very nicely indeed? So that even reasonable and rational people can be provoked into working themselves up into a tizzy of  outraged patriotic indignation, very much à la 1914?

[RoofGardener]

4 minutes ago, bee said:

 

yeah phew......   

how do we know they're not sitting in bed in a private hospital somewhere eating strawberry jelly - reading magazines and 
looking forward to spending all the money they have made by volunteering for a political drama where they get a bit poorly
but are in no danger of dying.... 

 

And the Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters in the hospital never noticed ? And the hundred detectives involved in investigating the case didn't notice ? 

Well then, now we KNOW that the Russians are involved. Only THEY have - historically - been able to pull off a Maskirovka on THAT scale. Never mind a Potemkin village - they've done an entire Potemkin Hospital ! (but in reverse.. making things look worse than they really are, rather than better). 

Awesome !

[bee]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

And the Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters in the hospital never noticed ? And the hundred detectives involved in investigating the case didn't notice ? 

Well then, now we KNOW that the Russians are involved. Only THEY have - historically - been able to pull off a Maskirovka on THAT scale. Never mind a Potemkin village - they've done an entire Potemkin Hospital ! (but in reverse.. making things look worse than they really are, rather than better). 

Awesome !

 

 

where are they anyway..... do you know what hospital... and if they are in strict isolation ....

and if there are a hundred detectives involved.... at least that would be a step in the right direction... to do some detecting...
before condemning -

 

[Space Commander Travis]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

And the Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters in the hospital never noticed ? And the hundred detectives involved in investigating the case didn't notice ? 

and any of them have found any evidence whatsoever that there were any Shadowy Russian Assassins involved, have they? For that matter, if it really was this Super Russian Nerve Agent on a scale never heretofore seen, would they allow all these Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters to run any risk of coming into contact with it? Have any of these Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters reported any ill effects that might be related to Super Russian Nerve Agent on a scale never heretofore seen? You really don't think there's at the very least a slight whiff of fish to all this? 

[RoofGardener]

12 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Let's think about that from another angle; if it was Putin's Assassin, with a Terror Poison of an unprecedented scale of effectiveness, which only the Russians could have made, why would this ex-spook still be alive? It seems either a pretty inept assassin, or this Terror Poisson isn't actually all it's made out to be.......

Hmm... a Terror Fish ? 

Noooooooooo... the Japanese have sent LobZilla to assassinate us....  

Jesting apart, you do touch on an interesting thing, @Vlad the Mighty

A lot will (I hope) be revealed by the Police investigation.. and it has a LOT of investigators. The question of HOW they where poisoned, rather than what the poison WAS, may be MOST revealing.

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Space Commander Travis]

Another pertinent comment:

Quote

 

Theresa's May claims that the Skripals were poisoned with 'Novichok' agents is highly questionable. Her claim that only Russia could be responsible for the Skripal incident is obviously b*****s.

The existence of the substances as described by Vil Mirzanyanov is in serious doubt. But if he is right then any state or company with a decent laboratory and competent personnel can produce these substances from the formulas and descriptions he provides in his book. That is at least what Mirzanyanov himself says.

But most disturbing about the case are not the false claims Theresa May makes. She is in deep political trouble over the Brexit negotiations and other issues and needs any political diversion that she can get. Blaming Russia for 'something' is en vogue and might help her for a while.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Vlad the Mighty

[ExpandMyMind]

I'm not sure why so many people have a hard time believing that this was Russia. This situation isn't an outlier. This is just the latest in a long line of assassinations, ordered by Moscow, carried out on British soil. They have been acting with impunity for decades but this time they went too far. A ****ing chemical weapon unleashed on our shores all just to make a statement? 

Our leadership was left with no option other than to react appropriately this time, rather than the usual turning the other cheek in order to prevent stressing Russian relations.

Quote

Lavish London mansions. A hand-painted Rolls-Royce. And eight dead friends. For the British fixer Scot Young, working for Vladimir Putin's most vocal critic meant stunning perks – but also constant danger. His gruesome death is one of 14 that US spy agencies have linked to Russia – but the UK police shut down every last case. A bombshell cache of documents today reveals the full story of a ring of death on British soil that the government has ignored.

To try to deny the realities of this situation is simply willful ignorance. And regardless of how sympathetic people here might be to Russia - for some inexplicable reason -  or how badly our own government acts abroad, it's an absolute disgrace to turn apologist for a country that attacks us, our citizens and our allies on such a regular basis.

Forget being 'patriotic'. Anyone who has read my posts over the years knows that I'm one of the most disillusioned people on here, with regards to my government and its actions. But I'll be damned if I'll stand by and watch my country being attacked by what is basically the Russian mafia (which is essentially what the Russian regime is). 

Supporting the Russians at this point, with regards to this issue, is borderline traitorous.

Edited March 15, 2018 by ExpandMyMind

[bee]

8 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Supporting the Russians at this point, with regards to this issue, is borderline traitorous.

I wonder if football fans who put little England flags on cars for the World Cup will get beaten up on their local supermarket
car park by ''''patriots'''' for being traitors...? 

It's interesting how quickly you have turned full establishment supporter... you all get flushed out sooner or later.... ....

    

[RoofGardener]

38 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

and any of them have found any evidence whatsoever that there were any Shadowy Russian Assassins involved, have they? For that matter, if it really was this Super Russian Nerve Agent on a scale never heretofore seen, would they allow all these Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters to run any risk of coming into contact with it? Have any of these Doctors and Nurses and Surgeons and Specialists and cleaners and administrators and porters reported any ill effects that might be related to Super Russian Nerve Agent on a scale never heretofore seen? You really don't think there's at the very least a slight whiff of fish to all this? 

Why the repetition of the phrase "a scale never heretofore seen" (or variations thereon).  Has anyone actually SAID this ?  

Methinks this is a Potemkin Strawman ?  You appear to be trying to diminish the seriousness of this murder attempt by applying unattributed superlatives to the poison, and to the likely perpetrators. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[RoofGardener]

 

23 minutes ago, bee said:

I wonder if football fans who put little England flags on cars for the World Cup will get beaten up on their local supermarket
car park by ''''patriots'''' for being traitors...? 

It's interesting how quickly you have turned full establishment supporter... you all get flushed out sooner or later.... ....

 Recognising that an "anti-establishment" argument is silly to the point of risibility (or even suspiciously partisan) is NOT the same as being an "establishment supporter".  

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Setton]

1 hour ago, bee said:

The British Govt itself might not be responsible - but they could be making political capital over it all and furthering the demonizing
and isolating of Russia - if someone else did it..... ? .... that's one possibility if elements of the establishment aren't behind it -

it is curious that with the nerve agent said to be so deadly and military grade - that it didn't even kill anyone... 

 

As I said, presumably made here and messed up the formula. 

And who else do you think has the knowhow and capability to make such a weapon? Do tell because apparently you know better than the man who created it. 

[bee]

22 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

 

 Recognising that an "anti-establishment" argument is silly to the point of risibility (or even suspiciously partisan) is NOT the same as being an "establishment supporter".  

 

ok I will give you that ---- and I should have said ...on this issue... 

I don't see what is silly and risible about wanting to take some care with throwing accusations around without proper evidence other than
'''it must have been'''' type arguments.. when we are already drowning in anti Putin + anti Russia propaganda --- because of Syria and the
Trump presidency.... ( and Brext.) -

all this feels dangerously close to a build up towards a military conflict with Russia and smacks of the UK general public being primed up for it - 
as I said somewhere.... the public didn't go for the Evil Russia Routine regarding Syria... they didn't go for the Trump / Russia collusion nonsense so now
we have this and...... bingo !!

 

 

[ExpandMyMind]

58 minutes ago, bee said:

I wonder if football fans who put little England flags on cars for the World Cup will get beaten up on their local supermarket
car park by ''''patriots'''' for being traitors...? 

It's interesting how quickly you have turned full establishment supporter... you all get flushed out sooner or later.... ....

    

I'm not sure why think that I support the "establishment" simply because I don't support Russia or their actions.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by ExpandMyMind

[bee]

Just now, ExpandMyMind said:

I'm not sure how why think that I support the "establishment" simply because I don't support Russia or their actions.

 

 

you are supporting the Tories and Teresa May on this issue.... and they are in full support of the anti Russia stance of the
establishment and military...

let's hope all this doesn't help to bring Britain into direct military confrontation with Russia somewhere down the line...

because there is no guarantee  that the UK won't end up destroyed and / or destabilized. if we took this path... 

I know this sounds dramatic but before beating the war drums we should consider the consequences...

IMO

  

[bee]

26 minutes ago, Setton said:

As I said, presumably made here and messed up the formula. 

And who else do you think has the knowhow and capability to make such a weapon? Do tell because apparently you know better than the man who created it. 

 

apparently the man who allegedly created it said that - 

"Russia did it", says Mirzanyanov, "OR SOMEONE WHO READ MY BOOK".

 

 

[LV-426]

3 hours ago, bee said:

I'm kind of guessing that this is directed at me as well as hetrodoxly.......

Wasn't particularly aimed at anyone, bee. Just a general point on the limits of lies within politics.

I just have a habit of clicking Quote, as I'm too lazy to scroll to the bottom of the page

[LV-426]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Why the repetition of the phrase "a scale never heretofore seen" (or variations thereon).  Has anyone actually SAID this ?

To be fair, there have been some dramatic terms thrown around in the media, but based on the fact that it's the first time a chemical nerve agent has been used in Europe since WWII.

[LV-426]

4 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Those of you who are still blustering in patriotic fury ought to read this. You will of course, just treat it with disdain and derision, since you know the truth, but there's no point trying to reason with fanaticism,.

Honestly Vlad, you're the only one displaying any fanaticism here, with your colourful depictions of "Prime Minister May and her absurd little tinpot regime [leading] Operation Barbarossa II against the Demon, with Boris marching at their head, spluttering incoherently and spittle flying from his lips and hair flying wildly", comments on "blustering in patriotic fury" and "Russkiephobic hysteria", along with talk of "outraged patriotic indignation." All while refusing to entertain any notion that Putin and his cronies had any connection at all to these events.

Who else is using such language?

Almost the entirety of Parliament sees the connection, on both sides of the House, with the possible exception of Comrade Corbyn.

Almost everyone posting here - who are often at opposite ends of the political spectrum - sees the connection.

Evidence? Yes. But why do you have such a hard time seeing the negative in Putin; former KGB man, a man reputed to have amassed personal wealth of $200 billion while his nation is in economic crisis due to oil prices and sanctions, a man behind <insert long list of criticisms on Syria, Ukraine, state-sponsored doping in athletics, bribary in winning the 2018 World Cup, ad infinitum...>?

[Space Commander Travis]

"May Visits Scene of Russian Attack". Come on, even the most offended patriots must be amused at how Britain's risible leader is milking this absolutely to the maximum for publicity. And note as well that Auntie Been isn't even bothering any more with trivial little details like "alleged Russkie Attack", or "alleged poisoning incident the source of which has not been identified yet".

[Space Commander Travis]

And as if that wasn't enough, Bitter air from Russia is again set to sweep across the country and collide with a moist flow from the west turning into snow across the UK.

Now Russia's Vile Putin is turning his weather manipulation technology on plucky little Britain again!

[Farmer77]

5 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

"May Visits Scene of Russian Attack". Come on, even the most offended patriots must be amused at how Britain's risible leader is milking this absolutely to the maximum for publicity. And note as well that Auntie Been isn't even bothering any more with trivial little details like "alleged Russkie Attack", or "alleged poisoning incident the source of which has not been identified yet".

LOL yeah I have no doubt the KGB (yeah I said it) pulled off this assassination but I also have no doubt there is no benefit for May to visit the scene beyond political grandstanding.