Critically ill man is former Russian spy

[stevewinn]

Just now, Grey Area said:

I agree, and for the record I am not saying it wasn’t Russia, I just am not prepared to make a judgement on the information we have been given.

In parliament today May said there can be no other conclusion that it was the Russian state that committed this attack.

Two days ago May asked the Russian Ambassador if it was them or if they had lost control of any stockpiles.  Russia has not responded, so clearly then there are other conclusions that can be drawn.

If this was being prosecuted in a court of law it would need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and given the potential outcome of this episode I think that it is important to be sure.

Russia denied its troops annexed Crimea. both at home and at the United Nations, hands up who believed them then and who still believes them now.

If the Russian state wasn't behind the attack Putin would have been on the phone talking directly to the British Prime Minister denying its involvement, knowing the serious  repercussions and Putin would be launching his own investigation at home. all this playing games just look at the Russian Ambassador to the UN yesterday saying we need a Sherlock Holmes, clearly making light of the situation.

Today the British Govt released a joint statement from UK, US , Germany and France calling on Russia to explain itself and provide full details of Novichock programme to OPCW, chemical weapons watchdog.

Russia is not playing by the rules, we were warned about this new asymmetric threat with Russia's involvement in Ukraine,  I keep repeating it, but which other Permanent UN security Council member who should be promoting and holding the highest regard for International peace and Law sends its forces into a sovereign state, with no insignia and denies any involvement, and lets not forget the shooting down of passenger plane over Ukraine with a Buk Missile system  and people still refuse to believe Russia's involvement in this nerve agent attack.

Russia as scored an own goal.

[Phaeton80]

9 minutes ago, bee said:

 

I don't think the perpetrators of this madness care how silly or transparent it all is.... the juggernaut heading towards a serious conflict  with Russia
possibly leading to WW3 - is pressing on regardless --- Brexit and the Trump presidency and the rise of 'populism' in various
countries has probably speeded it all up - the media owned by and in cahoots with the New World Order is running the script.... 

Order out of chaos - a big cull - a One World Government / economy / military ....arising out of a shattered World...

What the hell indeed - we could be heading for hell and there may be little we can do to stop the nutters getting it all together --

I think Teresa May is just a puppet in all this and going along with the Big Bad Russia narrative because she can make political
capital out of it and she probably doesn't have a choice...

I just have a really bad feeling about where all this is heading...

 

 

 

Well that more or less depends on 'us' doesnt it. If were silly enough to subscribe to and/or cheer on the present course (ie. swallow this sort of shallow nonsense), were heading for war. Seems a pretty safe bet.

Such a war, given present circumstances, specifically nuclear circumstances ('small tactical nukes'), will make Einsteins prophecy reality sooner than youd think. We will be fighting eachother with sticks & stones not too long from now. I like oldschool, but this one Ill gladly pass.

 

[RoofGardener]

50 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

This whole thing is just another episode of crazy like we have been witnessing in the West the last couple of months. I can hardly take it serious, can hardly take May serious. Its comical; because this is a supposed Russian chemical agent developed during the cold war.. 'There is no other conclusion possible'.......

Well.. OK... but please bear ONE thing in mind, @Phaeton80

I suspect that while you may struggle to take it "seriously", Sergie and Yulia Skipal may view if differently. If they ever recover. If they don't have brain damage. SOMEBODY poisoned them, with an artificially created chemical. This was not accidental food poisoning, for petes sake. !

This was MURDER... or at least attempted murder.. using... and I'm suprised that nobody has picked up on this yet... a weapon of mass destruction (or at least, on component thereof). 

This IS serious. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[RAyMO]

1 minute ago, ExpandMyMind said:

That's if you don't consider the rather obvious motive behind the method: it was a statement both to the west and other collaborators

The statement could be made by his assassination in such a way that we all knew it was Russia but had absolutely nothing to throw in that direction - also without the collateral damage to individuals firstly in Salisbury including the mans daughter and secondly politically to Russia. 

As it turns out it sends a message alright - but one that includes, to a degree, sloppy incompetence amongst other things.

[Space Commander Travis]

Quote

 

Following this suspected poisoning, the bumbling foreign secretary, Boris “BoJo” Johnson, was summoned to parliament to answer questions on Blighty’s relations with Russia après the events in Salisbury.

BoJo managed stick to his foreign-ministerial brief (“be diplomatic and judicious until the police investigation is concluded”) for a couple of minutes, but being the inveterate show-off he is, BoJo had to cut loose and find a way to put his big foot in his equally big mouth, by declaring to the startled parliamentary committee that Blighty was now at war with Russia.

 

Another amusing article .. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/03/14/hms-blighty-shipping-water-badly/

 

[Phaeton80]

11 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

That's if you don't consider the rather obvious motive behind the method: it was a statement both to the west and other collaborators.

I mean it already happened for those exact reasons in 2006, so I'm not sure why some people find this event to far fetched.

the scenario itself is not far fetched. The provided logic, evidence is laughable. Unwillingness to share said evidence, while blasting definitive accusations, seems typical these days. Subsequently adding 'there is no other conclusion possible', upgrades the whole thing to comical status.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Phaeton80

[RoofGardener]

6 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

The statement could be made by his assassination in such a way that we all knew it was Russia but had absolutely nothing to throw in that direction - also without the collateral damage to individuals firstly in Salisbury including the mans daughter and secondly politically to Russia. 

As it turns out it sends a message alright - but one that includes, to a degree, sloppy incompetence amongst other things.

Yes, it is baffling isn't it ? Unless we assume that the Russian government doesn't CARE about the political ramifications., or the human consequences of "collateral damage" (a HORRIBLY cold an inhumane term) .. it just wanted to send out a fascist message that ".. if you betray us, we will kill you, and anyone who happens to be around you". 

That sort of philosophy hardly seems typical of Vladimir Putin ! 

Oh... wait.... 

(No... I don't actually believe that .. YET.... but they HAVE assasinated people on UK soil before, and they have used poisons to do it. )

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[bee]

11 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I live between Faslane and the Grangemouth plant 

 

If the S hits the fan big time - nowhere in the UK would be safe.....   from destruction + social breakdown -

so maybe we should have a little think about that before encouraging the warmongers who are doing their very
best to provoke, demonize and isolate Russia...

a surprise escalation could pop out of nowhere... 

 

[Phaeton80]

7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Well.. OK... but please bear ONE thing in mind, @Phaeton80

I suspect that while you may struggle to take it "seriously", Sergie and Yulia Skipal may view if differently. If they ever recover. If they don't have brain damage. SOMEBODY poisoned them, with an artificially created chemical. This was not accidental food poisoning, for petes sake. !

This was MURDER... or at least attempted murder.. using... and I'm suprised that nobody has picked up on this yet... a weapon of mass destruction (or at least, on component thereof). 

This IS serious. 

 

Yeah well, serious things happen every day, especially in the Mid East. Whats your point here, we should take May's rhetoric seriously because two people may die?

You cheer on Israel bombing the hell out of Palestine, but suddenly you are concerned about two Russian nationals that may perish by way of poison. What a curious mode of ethics you have.

[LV-426]

2 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Russia denied its troops annexed Crimea. both at home and at the United Nations, hands up who believed them then and who still believes them now.

If the Russian state wasn't behind the attack Putin would have been on the phone talking directly to the British Prime Minister denying its involvement, knowing the serious  repercussions and Putin would be launching his own investigation at home. all this playing games just look at the Russian Ambassador to the UN yesterday saying we need a Sherlock Holmes, clearly making light of the situation.

Exactly.

The pattern is clear to see; disinformation, denial, scorn, play the offended party, don't show weakness (if the agent was from a rogue element.)

He might as well be one of Vlad the Mighty's Cold War Bond villains

[RoofGardener]

Just now, Phaeton80 said:

 

Yeah well, serious things happen every day, especially in the Mid East. Whats your point here, we should take May's rhetoric seriously because two people may die?

You cheer on Israel bombing the hell out of Palestine, but suddenly you are concerned about two Russian nationals that may perish by way of poison. What a curious mode of ethics you have.

What an incomprehensible - and offensive - post ? 

Cite the post where I "cheer on Israel bombing the hell out of Palestine,.... "

I know that I am as guilty as anyone of making the occasional "intemperate" post, but... well.. that was as nasty as it was irrelevant. 

[bee]

11 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

This was MURDER... or at least attempted murder.. using... and I'm suprised that nobody has picked up on this yet... a weapon of mass destruction (or at least, on component thereof). 

This IS serious. 

 

what did I just say about escalation..... 

so now you're saying that Russia attacked Britain with a WMD - 

so

we're leaving the EU AND maybe going to war with Russia - - - - great !!!

don't you think it would just be better to calm it all down --- 

[RoofGardener]

Just now, bee said:

 

what did I just say about escalation..... 

so now you're saying that Russia attacked Britain with a WMD - 

so

we're leaving the EU AND maybe going to war with Russia - - - - great !!!

don't you think it would just be better to calm it all down --- 

Not a bad plan at ALL, @bee  

[Phaeton80]

14 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

What an incomprehensible - and offensive - post ? 

Cite the post where I "cheer on Israel bombing the hell out of Palestine,.... "

I know that I am as guilty as anyone of making the occasional "intemperate" post, but... well.. that was as nasty as it was irrelevant. 

 

I apologize, I have a tendency to be intemperate towards people who support the Israeli state (in her policies). One of my achillesheels.
In my defence, my irrelevant was a reaction to yours.  

[ExpandMyMind]

24 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

the scenario itself is not far fetched. The provided logic, evidence is laughable. Unwillingness to share said evidence, while blasting definitive accusations, seems typical these days. Subsequently adding 'there is no other conclusion possible', upgrades the whole thing to comical status.

 

You haven't seen the evidence while our government and intelligence agencies have.

Said evidence has also been sent to the UN - their chemical weapons watchdog - as far as I'm aware.

I know we were lied to regarding Saddam, but there is literally no benefit to them lying to us in this situation. None. And Russia's petulant response only further enforces our government's assessment.

[RoofGardener]

5 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

I apologize, I have a tendency to be intemperate towards people who support the Israeli state (in her policies). One of my achillesheels.
In my defence, my irrelevant was a reaction to yours.  

I feel we are similar in that regard  I accept your apology, and offer an apology of my own, if I was a bit... hasty. ?  

Lets move on ?  

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Phaeton80]

1 minute ago, ExpandMyMind said:

You haven't seen the evidence while our government and intelligence agencies have.

Said evidence has also been sent to the UN - their chemical weapons watchdog - as far as I'm aware.

I know we were lied to regarding Saddam, but there is literally no benefit to them lying to us in this situation. None. And Russia's petulant response only further enforces our government's assessment.

How can you say that.. There has been a clear pattern of demonization of anything Russian from where Im standing. Havent noticed that I take it? Most if not all acts of agression have come from the West, not Russia. NATO creeping into Russia's backyard is only one of them. The Syrian conflict alone, where Russia entered the game and changed its outcome to complete dismay of the usual suspects, is reason enough for them to lie to us in this situation.

[Phaeton80]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I feel we are similar in that regard  I accept your apology, and offer an apology of my own, if I was a bit... hasty. ?  

Lets move on ?  

 

Lets

[RoofGardener]

14 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

How can you say that.. There has been a clear pattern of demonization of anything Russian from where Im standing. Havent noticed that I take it? Most if not all acts of agression have come from the West, not Russia. NATO creeping into Russia's backyard is only one of them. The Syrian conflict alone, where Russia entered the game and changed its outcome to complete dismay of the usual suspects, is reason enough for them to lie to us in this situation.

Well, from where I'M standing (the Roofgarden), Russia has done things to deserve demonisation. They have assassinated people in the UK before, using chemical weapons. They have invaded neighbouring countries. They are an authoritarian state that kill dissenters. 

Sometimes, when something is "demonised", it is because their neighbors smell brimstone !

[Kismit]

This is a gentle reminder to all posters, to discuss the topic without attacking other posters.

Thank you.

[Space Commander Travis]

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-infuriates-house-of-commons-with-russia-response

"Corbyn infuriates Commons by asking some rational questions rather than standing up and waving his little Union Jack as Ms. May, Empress of Britain and All her Dominions, announces the Mobilization of the Fleet and that the March on Moscow will commence no later than Monday. Just as long as there hasn't been any snow.  "

[Phaeton80]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

Well, from where I'M standing (the Roofgarden), Russia has done things to deserve demonisation. They have assassinated people in the UK before, using chemical weapons. They have invaded neighbouring countries. They are an authoritarian state that kill dissenters. 

Sometimes, when something is "demonised", it is because their neighbors smell brimstone !

But that would mean you think the West deserves demonisation, in dazzling spades, wouldnt it Roofgardener. Also, painting Ukraine; the annexation of Krim, as a 'Russian invasion' scenario, is a bit onesided.. to say the least. Russia has mainly been reacting to Western (hostile) actions, not the other way around. And as of yet, she has been exceedingly succesful in it.

 

[RoofGardener]

Well then @Vlad the Mighty, lets see what the police investigation produces ? 

If it's North Koreans, or Hezbollah, then Corbyn is wise. 

If it is Russia, then he is a Useful Idiot, to quote Lenin. 

Care to place a wager ?  Here and now ?  

[RoofGardener]

5 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

But that would mean you think the West deserves demonisation, in dazzling spades, wouldnt it Roofgardener. Also, painting Ukraine; the annexation of Krim, as a 'Russian invasion' scenario, is a bit onesided.. to say the least. Russia has mainly been reacting to Western (hostile) actions, not the other way around. And as of yet, she has been exceedingly succesful in it.

 

Well, I'll refer you to my previous post above ? (the one about placing a wager ? ) 

Are you willing to gamble that Russia was NOT behind it, within reasonable evidence ? 

Are you ? 

Edited March 15, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Phaeton80]

12 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, I'll refer you to my previous post above ? (the one about placing a wager ? ) 

Are you willing to gamble that Russia was NOT behind it, within reasonable evidence ? 

Are you ? 

Oh most definitely. This is an unwise move in every sense of the word if 'Russia', that is Putin's admin, is behind it. That doesnt fit the pattern, Russian pieces were played brilliantly until now, in a defenise fashion, but highly effective. Most if not all offensive actions have come from the West, demonization efforts at full blast, for months now. Why would Russia throw oil on the already sprakling fire by enaging in this assassination with a weapon that has her fingerprints all over it?

Didnt you ever watch Columbo? Come on.