Critically ill man is former Russian spy

[Phaeton80]

On 2-4-2018 at 0:32 PM, hetrodoxly said:

Bee do you have personal reasons for supporting Russia, family etc.

 

Do you have personal reasons for supporting GB, family etc? Im going to go on a limb here and suppose you in fact do.

Think you got this a bit twisted to be honest hetro. Lets be real here; as of yet no definitive proof has been supplied, yet definitive accusations have been made, sanctions employed. Sure; the argument on your side of the table is: 'there certainly is definitive evidence, it simply has not been disclosed to us'. This, mind you, while there has been no official explicit statement confirming that assumption, and even if it is (I might have missed it); its certainly not irrational to not join the 'Russia is guilty' party untill such evidence has been provided. Even if that results in hatchet jobs from your environment.

So for us regular folk, we need to value this incident on the evidence that has been.. well, 'disclosed', actually provided. And such evidence is gravely lacking, such evidence would not stand even a single day in any court of law. I hope we can all agree to this. What we are left with, is a rationalization of the legitimacy of these definitive accusations based on a supposed body of evidence which has not been provided yet.

Now tell me, which side of the table is serving themselves of subjectivity, bias, emotion.. If the tables were turned, you would surely acquire my position (and rightly so); that GB can only be held responsible, culpable for such accusations if the necessary proof is established, as the case with any judicial process. For you to lable those that adhere to this very fundament of rule of law (pending the supposed upcoming 'explosive proof') as 'biased', while maintaining the 'undisclosed evidence' position yourself - which you have no knowledge of as regards to veracity or legitimacy - is turning reality up side down. Objective fact.

For the rest of us, who obviously are Russian stooges - with family ties to Russia - in the eyes of the other side of the table, innocence until proven guilty still stands, as does the burden of proof residing with the plaintiff, not the accused.

[stevewinn]

Russia needed 28 votes at the UN, - they got six. no one is falling for Russia's little games.

[hetrodoxly]

54 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Do you have personal reasons for supporting GB, family etc? Im going to go on a limb here and suppose you in fact do.

Think you got this a bit twisted to be honest hetro. Lets be real here; as of yet no definitive proof has been supplied, yet definitive accusations have been made, sanctions employed. Sure; the argument on your side of the table is: 'there certainly is definitive evidence, it simply has not been disclosed to us'. This, mind you, while there has been no official explicit statement confirming that assumption, and even if it is (I might have missed it); its certainly not irrational to not join the 'Russia is guilty' party untill such evidence has been provided. Even if that results in hatchet jobs from your environment.

So for us regular folk, we need to value this incident on the evidence that has been.. well, 'disclosed', actually provided. And such evidence is gravely lacking, such evidence would not stand even a single day in any court of law. I hope we can all agree to this. What we are left with, is a rationalization of the legitimacy of these definitive accusations based on a supposed body of evidence which has not been provided yet.

Now tell me, which side of the table is serving themselves of subjectivity, bias, emotion.. If the tables were turned, you would surely acquire my position (and rightly so); that GB can only be held responsible, culpable for such accusations if the necessary proof is established, as the case with any judicial process. For you to lable those that adhere to this very fundament of rule of law (pending the supposed upcoming 'explosive proof') as 'biased', while maintaining the 'undisclosed evidence' position yourself - which you have no knowledge of as regards to veracity or legitimacy - is turning reality up side down. Objective fact.

For the rest of us, who obviously are Russian stooges - with family ties to Russia - in the eyes of the other side of the table, innocence until proven guilty still stands, as does the burden of proof residing with the plaintiff, not the accused.

I support Britain because i'm British the land of my fathers father and if Britain was involved in these attempted murders (whitch i don't believe for one second to be true) i'd still support Britain knowing they must have a good reason for doing so, why do you think these Russians come to the UK (they like the beer) their live were in danger and Putin showed them no mater where you are you're not safe.

[Phaeton80]

19 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I support Britain because i'm British the land of my fathers father and if Britain was involved in these attempted murders (whitch i don't believe for one second to be true) i'd still support Britain knowing they must have a good reason for doing so, why do you think these Russians come to the UK (they like the beer) their live were in danger and Putin showed them no mater where you are you're not safe.

I understand that, but lets not 'suppose' those that demand to see real proof before condemning, criminalizing a whole country are in any way 'pro Russian' because of that. Especially given the (potential) ramifications, possible conflict, and especially given earlier gleaned results (where wars were based on sheer lies.. talk about betrayal, treason against your nation, you and your fellow Britons).

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Novichok agent is broad term and still we haven't got precise designation of exactly which type was used which can be linked to Russia.

Knowing how widely spread and brutal Soviet spy network was before breakup of Soviet Union i can't disregard accusations by Britain as they do hold some weight but, so far, only allegations are available, no evidence and it's hard to find motive which Russia might have to do this.

Also, this comes at the time of increasing tensions between East and West, especially evident and increasing since events in Ukraine and Syria. I would not go so far as some who describe everything with 'Rusophobia' but some parts of sanctions and actions taken by the West so far do point to adoption of such narratives which are not grounded in fact.

What was funny to me was statement made by Jonathan Allen, ''This was no ordinary crime. It was an unlawful use of force a violation of UN charter, the basis of international legal order''. The Guardian article from which quote is taken, link.

Now, UN charter is supposed to be respected and called upon. Despicable.

This is not about the law but this is merely probing and testing, Russia under Putin has grown, sanctions actually helped to promote domestic produce and, after Russia manage to hasten defeat of terror in ME, bmo time has came to test political strength of Russia on one side and USA and EU on the other.

Fact is that neither of involved parties cares about poisoned people and what really happened will never be revealed to public. This might be good bargaining chip for USA and Britain and it will be exchanged behind the curtains.

[Grey Area]

39 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I support Britain because i'm British the land of my fathers father and if Britain was involved in these attempted murders (whitch i don't believe for one second to be true) i'd still support Britain knowing they must have a good reason for doing so.

I support Britain, but I’m sorry, my blind patriotism disappeared with Tony Blair’s credibility.  That is a clear example that the state can and will lie to the public to further an agenda.  Also I think the UK is better than this, we aspire to be world leaders and the standard of evidence which we wield as a diplomatic sword should be more than assumptions.  That said I would not even entertain the suggestion that the UK is itself the aggressor in this business.

46 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

why do you think these Russians come to the UK (they like the beer) their live were in danger and Putin showed them no mater where you are you're not safe.

I think we need to be clear here.  Certain choices were made by these people that put them in danger, not least of which their choice of profession.

In Skripal’s case, he chose to turn traitor, name any country in the world that would not want to harm a spy that stole secrets and gave them to a rival power?

[Van Gorp]

10 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

I support Britain because i'm British the land of my fathers father and if Britain was involved in these attempted murders (whitch i don't believe for one second to be true) i'd still support Britain knowing they must have a good reason for doing so

In other words: you don't believe Britain was involved, but IF they were involved you would still support Britain in their accusations towards Russia?

Exactly was is going on :-)

British people, can we trust you more than your govment?

[Van Gorp]

9 hours ago, Grey Area said:

 I would not even entertain the suggestion that the UK is itself the aggressor in this business.

Then al the rest is blabla.

[hetrodoxly]

9 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

In other words: you don't believe Britain was involved, but IF they were involved you would still support Britain in their accusations towards Russia?

Yes.

 

9 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

Exactly was is going on :-)

Putin settling old scores warning off others and giving the middle finger to the west.

 

9 hours ago, Van Gorp said:

British people, can we trust you more than your govment?

We don't speak as one, there's a guy i work with who i wouldn't trust as far as i could throw him, me, well of course you could.

[aztek]

 

[Phaeton80]

22 hours ago, Grey Area said:

I support Britain, but I’m sorry, my blind patriotism disappeared with Tony Blair’s credibility.  That is a clear example that the state can and will lie to the public to further an agenda.  Also I think the UK is better than this, we aspire to be world leaders and the standard of evidence which we wield as a diplomatic sword should be more than assumptions.  That said I would not even entertain the suggestion that the UK is itself the aggressor in this business.

I think we need to be clear here.  Certain choices were made by these people that put them in danger, not least of which their choice of profession.

In Skripal’s case, he chose to turn traitor, name any country in the world that would not want to harm a spy that stole secrets and gave them to a rival power?

 

Refreshingly objective..

[Mr.United_Nations]

I will not support Russia, if you like Russia then go live there where racism is ten times worse than the UK 

[aztek]

Just now, Mr.United_Nations said:

I will not support Russia, if you like Russia then go live there where racism is ten times worse than the UK 

have you visited Russia? i have more than once, and i also speak Russian pretty good, so i understand everything they say.   just because they are accustomed to calling people by nationality does not mean they hate you because of it, or use it to belittle you, they have a lot of jokes based on that.  sure some racism exists there. but not as much as you think, rudeness, unfriendliness, that is common.   

most "racist" part of population is middle aged or old drunks, even thou there are not many old drunks, they die young. but they "hate" everyone.  in a building i used to stay, there were few of those types hanging around, idk how they found out i was an american, but they did, (another thing about Russia  most people  too nosey, they want to know everything about you)  first few days they talked sht about me and usa, then a neighbor said, take a bottle of vodka, go to them drink with them and they will be your friends, and i did just that,  after that i was an american friend, they greeted me every time they saw me, , and even showed up the day we were leaving, even got my wife flowers., so it was not genuine hate, was not really hate at all.

  i would be worried about racism if it comes from someone who is not drunk,  lives in poverty, and basically nobody with no power, you need to worry about those who say those things in right mind, with all seriousness, and nothing can change their mind. and people like that are very few there,

 

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by aztek

[Grey Area]

2 hours ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

I will not support Russia, if you like Russia then go live there where racism is ten times worse than the UK 

Awesome, Russia is racist, that’s worth another 10 diplomats surely?

[bee]

 

Has Boris Johnson pulled in his horns after the Deleted Tweet business....?

Could he be worried now that he has effed up his ambitions to become PM ..... after recklessly morphing into an unashamed warmonger - 

And Corbyn saying....

“Boris Johnson seems to have completely exceeded the information that he had been given and told the world in categorical terms what he believed had happened. And it’s not backed up by the evidence he claimed to have got from Porton Down in the first place. Boris Johnson needs to answer some questions.

He added that Johnson had been left with “egg on his face” over his interview.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/04/skripal-poisoning-deleted-foreign-office-tweet-leads-to-awkward-questions

However, it emerged on Wednesday that the Foreign Office had earlier deleted a tweet claiming the British scientists had concluded that the nerve agent was “produced in Russia”.

In an awkward development for the Foreign Office, the Russian embassy’s Twitter feed pointed out that the 20 March tweet on a presentation by Britain’s ambassador to Moscow on the Salisbury attack had disappeared.

[bee]

 

And who would want to be in Yulia Skripal's shoes right now..... recovering (nicely) from the alleged attack using the most
deadly nerve agent known to man... but at the centre of a diplomatic crisis that actually threatens World Peace and a return to 
the cold war... or even military conflict..... if the madness continues to escalate...

random link on the subject

The plot thickens with the introduction of Yulia Skripal's cousin to the drama and the (said to be unverified) phone conversation -

Russian state television earlier aired an unverified recording of a phone conversation between Yulia Skripal and her cousin who lives in Moscow.

In the call, a woman introducing herself as Yulia Skripal said she was expecting to be discharged from hospital soon and that her father Sergei was "fine".

The hospital where the pair are being treated said in their latest update last week that Sergei remained in a critical condition.

 

[Phaeton80]

22 hours ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

I will not support Russia, if you like Russia then go live there where racism is ten times worse than the UK 

 

Yeah; 'If you dont like it here, you can ****'. Also, 'I support GB in its as of yet unsubstantiated blamegame against Russia because.. racism.'

Yay!

[stevewinn]

Any one watch the UN security council meeting? The UN is not being fooled and OPCW report will be out next week.

Russia already has its ducks lined up. the Russian foreign minister as said If the Russians are not allowed to have their ownn chemical weapons experts involved with the Independent OPCW investigation then they wont accept the reports findings. - it needs pointing out that if the Russians were involved or on the team in the OPCW investigation it would no longer be independent. the UK doesn't have British chemical weapons experts on the team so the UN-OPCW's report will be independent.

Another conspiracy spun by the Russians.that the UN-OPCW is not independent. 

The British Ambassador Karen Pierce made a very good speech in response to Russia's statement delivered by its Ambassador. The British Ambassador Karen Pierce pointed out as well the wording 'highly likely' which as been seized upon by pro-Russian supporters. She highlighted that under British law only the courts can finally determine culpability and so the wording 'highly likely' so not be misconstrued as to be casting doubt on Russia being responsible. 

Russia as come unstuck on this occasion. trouble is to many Russian double agents have spilled the beans in the past, and the UK was far more aware of Russian clandestine programmes. no wonder the Russians are assassinating these agents. Skripal for example spilled the beans, naming who the Russians spies were in Europe and were they where operating and thus putting these Russian spies lives at risk. no-wonder Putin and the FSB wanted pay back.

23 countries and over 200 Russian Diplomats/unregistered visitors expelled. damaging their ability for intelligence gathering and spy network.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by stevewinn

[Phaeton80]

13 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Any one watch the UN security council meeting? The UN is not being fooled and OPCW report will be out next week.

Russia already has its ducks lined up. the Russian foreign minister as said If the Russians are not allowed to have their ownn chemical weapons experts involved with the Independent OPCW investigation then they wont accept the reports findings. - it needs pointing out that if the Russians were involved or on the team in the OPCW investigation it would no longer be independent. the UK doesn't have British chemical weapons experts on the team so the UN-OPCW's report will be independent.

Another conspiracy spun by the Russians.that the UN-OPCW is not independent. 

The British Ambassador Karen Pierce made a very good speech in response to Russia's statement delivered by its Ambassador. The British Ambassador Karen Pierce pointed out as well the wording 'highly likely' which as been seized upon by pro-Russian supporters. She highlighted that under British law only the courts can finally determine culpability and so the wording 'highly likely' so not be misconstrued as to be casting doubt on Russia being responsible. 

Russia as come unstuck on this occasion. trouble is to many Russian double agents have spilled the beans in the past, and the UK was far more aware of Russian clandestine programmes. no wonder the Russians are assassinating these agents. Skripal for example spilled the beans, naming who the Russians spies were in Europe and were they where operating and thus putting these Russian spies lives at risk. no-wonder Putin and the FSB wanted pay back.

23 countries and over 200 Russian Diplomats/unregistered visitors expelled. damaging their ability for intelligence gathering and spy network.

 

 

Indeed, and Britain being part of the investigation ofcourse doesnt impact the independency of said effort, at all. But Russia being involved - especially given there has been no proof of her involvement - does.

Boris Johnson, after claiming 'the guy at Porton Down told him the source of the toxin was Russian', which is a complete lie.. continues to slander Russia with further unsubstantiated claims:

Johnson said: “The purpose of Russia’s ludicrous proposal at The Hague was clear - to undermine the independent, impartial work of the international chemical weapons watchdog.” British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said in a statement.“

“Russia has had one goal in mind since the attempted murders on U.K. soil through the use of a military-grade chemical weapon: to obscure the truth and confuse the public.”

So not only are the earlier definitive accusations continued like Russia has already been proven guilty, this clown actually adds to it by assuming - again definitively, leaving no room for other possibilities what so ever- their malicious intent. If any party falls into that category 'obscuring truth and confusing the public' (ie. see proven lie / deception of our lovely Boris Johnson regarding 'the Porton Down Guy'), its GB. In addition, Russia's desire to be involved in the investigation is ofcourse not strange at all, given earlier instances of 'intelligence reports' used as a pretext for political action being faulty, or simply falsifications ('the end justifies the means').

Allthewhile ofcourse, Britain refuses to enter into dialog, refuses to supply a sample of the supposed toxin, and refuses Russia's access to one of their citizens, Yulia Skripal, while continuing to slander Russia with defnititive accusations before any results and or evidence has been established. Allthewhile ofcourse, this former spy was formally swapped 8 years ago, and Russia's motives for murdering him now, at this time, at this location, with this method, are just completely illogical, rather.. highly counterproductive, damaging. Especially given both are still alive. The whole narrative reads like a Fridaynight Hollywood comedy.

..After which another of the GB crew, Nick Heath; has the gall to state: "Russia had failed again in its attempts to frustrate the process of justice”. 'Justice', you know, where the accused is innocent until proven guilty, where the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff - not the accused, the accused is allowed to defend itself, and where countries are allowed access to their citizens, especially when involved in events like these. You just cannot make this stuff up.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Phaeton80

[Phaeton80]

"obscure the truth and confuse the public.. "

Lets revisit the UN Security Council discussion about the Skripal case for a moment..

The Russian UN representative made his presentation first, outlining their doubts about the case as expressed by the UK and the manner in which it is being handled. This was followed by the British UN representative and her attempt at a rebuttal to the Russian comments..

The UK representative said it was a reflection of the British judicial system in that “only a court can finally determine culpability.” (Can you believe it..)

However, she then goes on to argue that the lack of a court finding “should not be construed as casting doubt whatsoever on the likelihood of Russia being responsible.” In other words, we haven’t sent it to court yet, but Russia is obviously guilty anyway, without a doubt. (Yay!)

The UK rep. then continues arguing about Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson and his contradictory statements. According to her, Boris Johnson “was making clear that Porton Down was sure the nerve agent was Novichok, a point they have subsequently reaffirmed.” Which, ofcourse, is a grave misrepresentation of the facts, given Johnson explicitly stated the Porton Down information was: categorical the Salisbury attack came from Russia.

She then argued that "because there was a 'lack of alternate explanations' that is why we have reached the conclusion we have.” She then goes on to deride two alternate theories without considering the many questions that contradict the ‘official’ UK theory. Nor did she acknowledge the many other alternate explanations that could be arrived at from the information presented so far in public.


Thankfully, not all GB allies continue to fall for this crazed rhetoric..

 

..Instead of cheering on the character assassination of Jeremy Corbyn enmasse for asking inconvenient yet extremely logical questions, the Biritsh public would do well to call for the resignation of Johnson, who has a rich trackrecord of blatant deceit, lying to the public. In my homecountry, our ex foreign affairs minister got just that after blatantly lying, threateningly boasting about Russia's dark desire to re instate the former glory o/t USSR, 'Great Russia'.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Phaeton80

[Black Monk]

British security services have located the Russian lab behind Salisbury plot

Despite the blunders, the EU yesterday insisted it retained 'full confidence' in the UK's investigation of the Salisbury nerve agent attack and said Russia was to blame.

Brussels issued a strong statement in support of Britain as ministers scrambled to shore up the international coalition standing against the Kremlin.  

Britain branded the plea for an apology from Russia 'perverse' and ministers hit out at the Russian claims.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5580765/British-security-services-locate-covert-Russian-lab-Salisbury-poison-plot.html#ixzz5BywzX2e8
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Phaeton80]

Well well, the plot thickens.. Interesting input. Lets see what follows about this 'Russian laboratory which manufactured the nerve agent'. And why 'Anti Semite Jeremy Corbyn cannot be trusted with secret intelligence in case he leaks it.'

Given, ofcourse, he is 'a Russian Stooge' (as well as an 'Anti Semite'), based no doubt on him questioning the official narrative. Fascinating.. cant wait (for some real substance being forwarded based on this latest claim).

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

Indeed, and Britain being part of the investigation ofcourse doesnt impact the independency of said effort, at all. But Russia being involved - especially given there has been no proof of her involvement - does.

Boris Johnson, after claiming 'the guy at Porton Down told him the source of the toxin was Russian', which is a complete lie.. continues to slander Russia with further unsubstantiated claims:

Johnson said: “The purpose of Russia’s ludicrous proposal at The Hague was clear - to undermine the independent, impartial work of the international chemical weapons watchdog.” British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said in a statement.“

“Russia has had one goal in mind since the attempted murders on U.K. soil through the use of a military-grade chemical weapon: to obscure the truth and confuse the public.”

So not only are the earlier definitive accusations continued like Russia has already been proven guilty, this clown actually adds to it by assuming - again definitively, leaving no room for other possibilities what so ever- their malicious intent. If any party falls into that category 'obscuring truth and confusing the public' (ie. see proven lie / deception of our lovely Boris Johnson regarding 'the Porton Down Guy'), its GB. In addition, Russia's desire to be involved in the investigation is ofcourse not strange at all, given earlier instances of 'intelligence reports' used as a pretext for political action being faulty, or simply falsifications ('the end justifies the means').

Allthewhile ofcourse, Britain refuses to enter into dialog, refuses to supply a sample of the supposed toxin, and refuses Russia's access to one of their citizens, Yulia Skripal, while continuing to slander Russia with defnititive accusations before any results and or evidence has been established. Allthewhile ofcourse, this former spy was formally swapped 8 years ago, and Russia's motives for murdering him now, at this time, at this location, with this method, are just completely illogical, rather.. highly counterproductive, damaging. Especially given both are still alive. The whole narrative reads like a Fridaynight Hollywood comedy.

..After which another of the GB crew, Nick Heath; has the gall to state: "Russia had failed again in its attempts to frustrate the process of justice”. 'Justice', you know, where the accused is innocent until proven guilty, where the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff - not the accused, the accused is allowed to defend itself, and where countries are allowed access to their citizens, especially when involved in events like these. You just cannot make this stuff up.

 

 

 

In my post i said the UK is not part of the UN-OPCW investigation. There is no British involvement in their investigation. The UK has not asked to be part of that investigation, Unlike Russia.

Russia wanted in on the UN-OPCW investigation, They want their people on the investigating team, for no other reason but to feed information back to Moscow so they can prepare their next disinformation. because as it stands they don't know what's coming.  The fact the Russian Foreign minister as already come out and said they wont accept the report. unless Russian demands are met. Its such as shame Russia wont give unlimited access to the UN-OPCW investigators to their facilities within Russia.

It's just like when the UK gave Russia 24hours to reply to the British request. Russia responded with, The request is null and void. The Russians did not say, give us some time etc... but there we go.

The UN report is out next week, have you got your ducks lined up.

 

 

[Phaeton80]

23 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 

In my post i said the UK is not part of the UN-OPCW investigation. There is no British involvement in their investigation. The UK has not asked to be part of that investigation, Unlike Russia.

Russia wanted in on the UN-OPCW investigation, They want their people on the investigating team, for no other reason but to feed information back to Moscow so they can prepare their next disinformation. because as it stands they don't know what's coming.  The fact the Russian Foreign minister as already come out and said they wont accept the report. unless Russian demands are met. Its such as shame Russia wont give unlimited access to the UN-OPCW investigators to their facilities within Russia.

It's just like when the UK gave Russia 24hours to reply to the British request. Russia responded with, The request is null and void. The Russians did not say, give us some time etc... but there we go.

The UN report is out next week, have you got your ducks lined up.

 

 

Russia's proposal was a joint GB - Russia investiation, thats the proposal GB has responded to as being 'perverse'. You know, entering into constructive dialog, cooperation in establishing the facts, before any definitive accusations are made (well, tad bit too late for that isnt it)  Thats what I was referring to, not the UN-OPCW variant, which would be parallel to the proposed investiation regardless.

Ducks in a row you say..

'To become well-organized, prepared, and up-to-date.'

Seems to me GB should have had their ducks in a row before defnitively accusing Russia for this crime some weeks ago, directly after the incident happened no less. Also, my whole position in this thread has been none other than demanding these ducks be in a row before doing so. The latest input might - might - constitute as such, hence my eagerness to have access to the substance of said latest claims. This does not take away any thing I have stated in this thread, about the (lacking) process and penalties issued, about the hatchet jobs against people asking rational questions, and against blatant lies being told to the public by British government officials.

[bmk1245]

Haven't seen so much anglophobia since... well... ever. But, hey, what can you expect from Putinophiles...