Critically ill man is former Russian spy

[bee]

14 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

all war is sad. and there is no nice way to kill someone. country's don't have feelings and morals, they have interests and use their strengths to secure them. shadowy and clandestine intelligence units make this happen so the politicians can sleep well at night not aware of who really is the bad guy. depleted uranium is just another example. asbestos on old warships another. chemical agents to kill forests in Vietnam. collateral damage.

 

I'm not religious in the traditional sense, but the words ' where there is darkness let there be light ' came into my mind when I 
read your post --- and it turns out it's from a prayer of Saint Francis... 

Peace Prayer of Saint Francis

 

goodnight to you too - 

 

[Phaeton80]

16 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Report by the OPCW as been released, and - The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.  The OPCW said it received information about the medical conditions of the Skripals and Det Sgt Nick Bailey, it collected their blood samples, and it gathered samples from the site in Salisbury.

So the UK was correct that it was Novichok and of a high quality grade. only possible by a top state Scientific Laboratory made by experts. 

Who has this Capability, (Russia)  Who was known to have a Novichok programme? (Russia) Who was targeted with the Nerve Agent (Ex-Russian KGB/FSB Agent) 

But according to the Conspiracy theorists. it wasn't Russia it was someone else, but they cant tell us who.

 

Oh dear.. if you cant see this changes ab so lutely nothing, if you cannot see there are numerous other nations that would have this capability besides Russia, and quite possibly have a far better motive than Russia, you are deluding yourself. Which is convenient, especially given you have been passionately grasping unto supposed upcoming unequivocal proof your government has secretly based its agressive and definitive accusations on, but that doesnt make it reality, rational, true. At all.

Nonetheless, we will be here waiting for your government to get 'all their ducks in a row', regarding May's Skripal case / Russian hostility, as well as her intention on Syrian military action without parlementiary approval - both based on an as of yet complete lack of evidence. The guilty party has, in both cases, been established without due process, without due evidence. Clearly, this is all fine and well for you and those like you, which is a unsettling trend leading to an extremely unWestern / unlawful and precarious, volatile situation - the effects of which will certainly find its way home. Be careful what you wish for (against others), because you might just get it (yourselves).

[RoofGardener]

29 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Oh dear.. if you cant see this changes ab so lutely nothing, if you cannot see there are numerous other nations that would have this capability besides Russia,  and quite possibly have a far better motive than Russia , you are deluding yourself. .....

Name one ? 

[Phaeton80]

Here we have Britain selling their arms to Saudi Arabia - the very heimat of the ISIS ideology mind you - which in turn uses those weapons to leave a trail of civilian death & destruction in Yemen.

..Some dead children count more than others, and some weapons of mass destruction (chemical ornaments) count more than others (mass employ of exlosive ornaments).. while the deathrate of the latter seems a wee bit more prominent.

Double measures? Oh please, dont be a Jerem.. I mean, Russian Stooge.

[Phaeton80]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Name one ? 

Pure motive wise, Id almost say name one (of the main chessboard players) that doesnt. As commented earlier, Russia employing this method (bearing its 'signature') against this (meaningless, formally exchanged) individual at this (volatile) point in time at this particular (British, in broad daylight) location, with this endresult (complete failure) is excessively illogical, irrational.

Unless ofcourse she wants to incite all out conflict with the main powerplayers, which does not fit the pattern of her behaviour up until this point - and does not serve her interests, that profile befits the USA like a glove, not Russia. Unless you subscribe to the myriad of hyped and unfounded tendentious accusations coming from the USA, GB or EU, targetting thesame for some time now.

[stevewinn]

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Oh dear.. if you cant see this changes ab so lutely nothing, if you cannot see there are numerous other nations that would have this capability besides Russia, and quite possibly have a far better motive than Russia, you are deluding yourself. Which is convenient, especially given you have been passionately grasping unto supposed upcoming unequivocal proof your government has secretly based its agressive and definitive accusations on, but that doesnt make it reality, rational, true. At all.

Nonetheless, we will be here waiting for your government to get 'all their ducks in a row', regarding May's Skripal case / Russian hostility, as well as her intention on Syrian military action without parlementiary approval - both based on an as of yet complete lack of evidence. The guilty party has, in both cases, been established without due process, without due evidence. Clearly, this is all fine and well for you and those like you, which is a unsettling trend leading to an extremely unWestern / unlawful and precarious, volatile situation - the effects of which will certainly find its way home. Be careful what you wish for (against others), because you might just get it (yourselves).

changes absolutely nothing says the Conspiracy theorist - except the report totally confirms and verifies what the UK said all along was correct, and that's the important point the UN-OPCW's Independent investigation and findings were paramount. Its now officially confirmed at the United Nations. The British have called a meeting for Wednesday to discuss the findings of the OPCWs report.

- I bet if this OPCW report stated tests and analysis were inconclusive, and as such we cannot confirm the UK's findings; you for one would have been on this forum holding the report aloft. But thankfully we deal in facts just like the UN Independent body OPCW.

Conspiracy theories continue..........one question, do you accept the OPCW report?

 

[Phaeton80]

26 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

changes absolutely nothing says the Conspiracy theorist - except the report totally confirms and verifies what the UK said all along was correct, and that's the important point the UN-OPCW's Independent investigation and findings were paramount. Its now officially confirmed at the United Nations. The British have called a meeting for Wednesday to discuss the findings of the OPCWs report.

- I bet if this OPCW report stated tests and analysis were inconclusive, and as such we cannot confirm the UK's findings; you for one would have been on this forum holding the report aloft. But thankfully we deal in facts just like the UN Independent body OPCW.

Conspiracy theories continue..........one question, do you accept the OPCW report?

 

Sigh.. You are the one entertaining conspiracy theories based on lacking evidence, I am the one demanding actual proof of Russia's complicity. But you trying to brand me a conspiracy theorist from that backdrop fits nicely in the up side down pattern we are witnessing here. Obviously, the conclusions this was a military grade toxin, made by an advanced laboratory, does in no way constitute said Russian complicity.

Bet whatever you'd like Steve.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Phaeton80

[Grey Area]

21 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

and that's the important point the UN-OPCW's Independent investigation and findings were paramount.

Well not really, all this report does is confirm the type of agent used in the attack, and is evidently not so paramount as to wait for before taking decisive action.

25 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

But thankfully we deal in facts just like the UN Independent body OPCW.

Did you really just say that?  The only fact revealed here is that there is still no evidence that the Russian state ordered the use of the nerve agent.

[stevewinn]

47 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Sigh.. You are the one entertaining conspiracy theories based on lacking evidence, I am the one demanding actual proof of Russia's complicity. But you trying to brand me a conspiracy theorist from that backdrop fits nicely in the up side down pattern we are witnessing here. Obviously, the conclusions this was a military grade toxin, made by an advanced laboratory, does in no way constitute said Russian complicity.

Bet whatever you'd like Steve.

Do you accept the OPCW's findings, a simple Yes or No.

46 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Well not really, all this report does is confirm the type of agent used in the attack, and is evidently not so paramount as to wait for before taking decisive action.

Did you really just say that?  The only fact revealed here is that there is still no evidence that the Russian state ordered the use of the nerve agent.

The participation of the OPCW in the investigation was paramount; officially confirming the UK's findings, and yes we only deal in facts. No evidence you say. maybe not for public consumption, but the relevant authorities and bodies have been briefed. when you have 24 countries and over 100 Diplomats expelled by differing countries you know the evidence exists. - quite why people cannot see this, and your not going to get a play by play. - what happens when a court case is brought and all the evidence has been made public it would jeopardise the whole Police investigation and court case. - But don't confuse the two, IE; the Govt stating 'highly likely' as the UK Govt is separate from the Police and Courts. Only a British court can attribute blame, hence the 'highly likely' phrase which the conspiracy theorists wrongly jumped on like it somehow acquitted Russia of blame. - The UK is playing it by the rule book.

As it stands, the Police Investigation started, early evidence gathered, the use of a nerve agent now confirmed by the UN-OPCW (carried out their own investigation) and while this as all been going on the Police have quietly carried on with their investigation and like any crime when all the evidence is gathered it will be put to the Crown Prosecution Service. - and that's when you'll hear the evidence, and not before then. I suspect when Mi5/6 give evidence in a closed court due to sensitive information the Conspiracy theorists will jump to all sorts of conclusions. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phaeton80]

56 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Do you accept the OPCW's findings, a simple Yes or No.

Yes Steve, just like I did the Porton Down findings, which concluded the very same.. after which the usual suspects like Boris Johnson ran with it - somehow posing it was the evidence that confirmed their case, even blatantly lying - lying - about what the experts at Porton Down actually concluded.. just like they, and those who obviously blindly support them, are running with it now.
 

PS. "No evidence you say. maybe not for public consumption, but the relevant authorities and bodies have been briefed" This is what you base your whole (conspiratorial) position on, some perceived secret intelligence that does in fact prove Russia's complicity, which as of yet no one has heard, seen or otherwise was made privy of - including yourself (besides the 'relevant authorities', ofcourse).
Yet you slander anyone who demands that secret proof be made public, to actually prove their case instead of waving it around like some victory flag without ever really supplying said proof, as a conspiracy theorist. Im sorry, but that simply and bluntly, is rather comical.
 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Phaeton80

[RoofGardener]

5 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Pure motive wise, Id almost say name one (of the main chessboard players) that doesnt. As commented earlier, Russia employing this method (bearing its 'signature') against this (meaningless, formally exchanged) individual at this (volatile) point in time at this particular (British, in broad daylight) location, with this endresult (complete failure) is excessively illogical, irrational.

Unless ofcourse she wants to incite all out conflict with the main powerplayers, which does not fit the pattern of her behaviour up until this point - and does not serve her interests, that profile befits the USA like a glove, not Russia. Unless you subscribe to the myriad of hyped and unfounded tendentious accusations coming from the USA, GB or EU, targetting thesame for some time now.

So you're saying that the USA arranged for a British Citizen to be poisoned ? In Britain ? Using a substance that is VERY difficult to synthesise. Just to put blame on the Russians ? 

 I mean... really ? That's your theory ? 

If you hear hoofbeats, do you assume it is Zebras ? 

Edited April 13, 2018 by RoofGardener

[stevewinn]

19 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Yes Steve, just like I did the Porton Down findings, which concluded the very same.. after which the usual suspects like Boris Johnson ran with it - somehow posing it was the evidence that confirmed their case, even blatantly lying - lying - about what the experts at Porton Down actually concluded.. just like they, and those who obviously blindly support them, are running with it now.
 

PS. "No evidence you say. maybe not for public consumption, but the relevant authorities and bodies have been briefed" This is what you base your whole (conspiratorial) position on, some perceived secret intelligence that does in fact prove Russia's complicity, which as of yet no one has heard, seen or otherwise was made privy of - including yourself (besides the 'relevant authorities', ofcourse).
Yet you slander anyone who demands that secret proof be made public, to actually prove their case instead of waving it around like some victory flag without ever really supplying said proof, as a conspiracy theorist. Im sorry, but that simply and bluntly, is rather comical.
 

With you having accepted the evidence from the UK analysis and the OPCW report. - all you have to do now is wait for the conclusion of Police investigation. - Conspiracy theories are not needed, as is evident.

[Phaeton80]

23 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

So you're saying that the USA arranged for a British Citizen to be poisoned ? In Britain ? Using a substance that is VERY difficult to synthesise. Just to put blame on the Russians ? 

 I mean... really ? That's your theory ? 

If you hear hoofbeats, do you assume it is Zebras ? 

 

No, thats not what I said, you seem to have some trouble reading somehow. Try again! 

The same goes for your attempt at being funny.

 

[RoofGardener]

3 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

No, thats not what I said, you seem to have some trouble reading somehow. Try again! 

The same goes for your attempt at being funny.

 

Oh really ? 

5 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

....

Unless ofcourse she wants to incite all out conflict with the main powerplayers, which does not fit the pattern of her behaviour up until this point - and does not serve her interests, that profile befits the USA like a glove, not Russia. Unless you subscribe to the myriad of hyped and unfounded tendentious accusations coming from the USA, GB or EU, targetting thesame for some time now.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Phaeton80]

22 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

With you having accepted the evidence from the UK analysis and the OPCW report. - all you have to do now is wait for the conclusion of Police investigation. - Conspiracy theories are not needed, as is evident.

Well yes, just like you seem to accept your Secretary of Foreign Affairs just blatantly deliver lies to you and your fellow countrymen concerning paramount subjects that could lead your country - and your fellow countrymen - into a very serious conflict situation. We had something similar recently in my own country - where tendentious lies were told to the public painting Russia in a negative manner - which was in a less dire context mind you, he's looking for a new job.

[Phaeton80]

4 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Oh really ? 

 

Yes, really. 

[ian hacktorp]

Edited April 13, 2018 by hacktorp

[Phaeton80]

Interesting..

https://twitter.com/The_Cyrenian/status/983661056366030849/video/1

This is obviously a Russian propaganda vdo trying to undermine the clearcut proof Assad is the only one in posession of these toxins, and the only one having used said toxins. As if there isnt enough proof he has used this on countless occasions, there is absolutely no need for such video's.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/world/middleeast/isis-chemical-weapons-syria-iraq-mosul.html

Anyone not adhering to the official narrative must either be a complete dimwit, or a Russian Stooge traitor like that crazed Jeremy Corbyn, who would leak the evidence he demanded the very moment he'd receive it (yay!).

Assad is the only one able to use these toxins, everyone knows that. Just like Russia is the only one able to produce and adminster the toxins used in the Salisbury event. Get with the program, damn tinfoil hatters.

 

[bee]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

So you're saying that the USA arranged for a British Citizen to be poisoned ? In Britain ? Using a substance that is VERY difficult to synthesise. Just to put blame on the Russians ? 

 I mean... really ? That's your theory ? 

If you hear hoofbeats, do you assume it is Zebras ? 

 

Yulia is Russian and Sergei was a Russian spy - a double agent - I think after the spy swap thing he was given citizenship
and now has dual nationality...?.... the policeman who was out of hospital before Yulia was discharged was collateral damage ....
and not a 'target' - 

[bee]

20 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

 

yeah what happened I was just about to read that....

[bee]

45 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Well yes, just like you seem to accept your Secretary of Foreign Affairs just blatantly deliver lies to you and your fellow countrymen concerning paramount subjects that could lead your country - and your fellow countrymen - into a very serious conflict situation. We had something similar recently in my own country - where tendentious lies were told to the public painting Russia in a negative manner - which was in a less dire context mind you, he's looking for a new job.

 

I am furious that Johnson, May etc are putting this country and all who live here at serious risk... they seem to care more about
a Russian spy and some citizens and terrorists in Douma , Syria..... than they do about us.... about the people who they are
supposed to be representing - 

haven't we got enough to worry about without worrying about idiotic politicians leading us into a pointless war with Russia...?
Russia wants peace and so do the general public in the UK.... people are worried about their kids and what could happen -

and the children in Syria will be better off in the long run if the Syrian Army with Russia's help can drive out the terrorists  -

The majority of people in Britain I think are very very concerned that our government is out of control and behaving irresponsibly...
If the S hits the fan May etc will be down in their bunkers ---- we will be the ones taking the consequences -  

[bee]

12 minutes ago, bee said:

I am furious that Johnson, May etc are putting this country and all who live here at serious risk... they seem to care more about
a Russian spy and some citizens and terrorists in Douma , Syria..... than they do about us.... about the people who they are
supposed to be representing - 

 

every time I feel anxiety about what's happening and what the UK government is putting us through --- the double whammy of
the Skripal incident and the alleged chemical attack in Syria... and the way Johnson May etc are handling it all - I curse them
and want them removed from office asap....

 

[Grey Area]

3 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Do you accept the OPCW's findings, a simple Yes or No.

The participation of the OPCW in the investigation was paramount; officially confirming the UK's findings, and yes we only deal in facts. No evidence you say. maybe not for public consumption, but the relevant authorities and bodies have been briefed. when you have 24 countries and over 100 Diplomats expelled by differing countries you know the evidence exists. - quite why people cannot see this, and your not going to get a play by play. - what happens when a court case is brought and all the evidence has been made public it would jeopardise the whole Police investigation and court case. - But don't confuse the two, IE; the Govt stating 'highly likely' as the UK Govt is separate from the Police and Courts. Only a British court can attribute blame, hence the 'highly likely' phrase which the conspiracy theorists wrongly jumped on like it somehow acquitted Russia of blame. - The UK is playing it by the rule book.

As it stands, the Police Investigation started, early evidence gathered, the use of a nerve agent now confirmed by the UN-OPCW (carried out their own investigation) and while this as all been going on the Police have quietly carried on with their investigation and like any crime when all the evidence is gathered it will be put to the Crown Prosecution Service. - and that's when you'll hear the evidence, and not before then. I suspect when Mi5/6 give evidence in a closed court due to sensitive information the Conspiracy theorists will jump to all sorts of conclusions. 

Everything you say COULD be true, and I hope it is for the sake of our credibility on the world stage if nothing else.

there’s nothing in my mind a simple statement along these lines wouldn’t fix, but when you have the leader of the opposition asking the same questions I am, someone who would be able to be privy to details of national security, and who, if there was concrete proof would align his view with that of the government, that is kinda telling.

[GlitterRose]

On 4/13/2018 at 8:08 AM, RoofGardener said:

So you're saying that the USA arranged for a British Citizen to be poisoned ? In Britain ? Using a substance that is VERY difficult to synthesise. Just to put blame on the Russians ? 

 I mean... really ? That's your theory ? 

If you hear hoofbeats, do you assume it is Zebras ? 

Unbelievable.

I can't understand why people are believing dictators with ****** track records over their own. 

Hasn't anyone learned anything about propaganda? I thought we all did. 

[RoofGardener]

23 hours ago, bee said:

 

I am furious that Johnson, May etc are putting this country and all who live here at serious risk... they seem to care more about
a Russian spy and some citizens and terrorists in Douma , Syria..... than they do about us.... about the people who they are
supposed to be representing - 

........

Or perhaps they are being very forward-thinking. Imagine if we'd stopped Hitler in 1936 when he marched into the Rhineland ? Or Austria in 1938 ? 

If you keep allowing bullies to get away with atrocities, then it just encourages them to go for more. Putin is using Assad - and a succession poison assassinations  (just the latest of MANY, remember) - to test Western resolve. It has to stop somewhere. why not here and now ?