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LV-426

Critically ill man is former Russian spy

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, LV-426 said:

Lay blame and show all the animosity you want towards your own governement along with those of Western allies, but don't try to paint Assad as some kind of terrorist fighting hero.

Ugh not claiming the man is a hero. He is fighting terrorists however. They're just terrorists that we "like" 

4 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Terrorists such as women and children in refugee camps, schools and hospitals?

Why Is the U.S. Killing So Many Civilians in Syria and Iraq?

Quote

wo weeks ago, the American military finally acknowledged what nongovernmental monitoring groups had claimed for months: The United States-led coalition fighting the Islamic State since August 2014 has been killing Iraqi and Syrian civilians at astounding rates in the four months since President Trump assumed office. The result has been a “staggering loss of civilian life,” as the head of the United Nations’ independent Commission of Inquiry into the Syrian civil war said last week.

“At least 484 civilians have been unintentionally killed by coalition strikes,” the United States Central Command, or Centcom, the military command responsible for the Middle East, said in a June 2 statement. Four months earlier, Centcom had said at least 199 civilians had been killed up to that point in the bombing campaign. Estimates by independent monitors are much higher. Airwars, a watchdog group, says coalition airstrikes have killed nearly 4,000 civilians.

Despite my anti Trump bend I was looking for  larger picture statistics when I found this. 

If you were more focused on the munitions type than the deaths themselves we do our share of horridness as well 

US reverses plan to quit using its stock of older cluster bombs

Quote

Cluster bombs -- which not only deliver an initial explosion on impact but also contain multiple smaller bombs that spread over a wide area -- are largely condemned by the international community due to the risk of civilian casualties when they're used in populated areas.

Over 100 countries, including most members of NATO, have called for a ban on the controversial weapon and human rights groups have expressed concerns over civilian casualties resulting from cluster bombs.

The United States is one of several nations -- including China, Israel, Iran, North Korea, Russia and Saudi Arabia -- that have rejected a ban on the sale or use of cluster bombs.

 

Everyone thinks that pointing out these things somehow makes me anti American or anti west but its really just an honest accounting of whats happening. We the west no longer have moral highground to stand on in these matters and there is no reason to think we are any less of a suspect in these alleged chemical attacks. 

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LV-426
2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Everyone thinks that pointing out these things somehow makes me anti American or anti west but its really just an honest accounting of whats happening. We the west no longer have moral highground to stand on in these matters and there is no reason to think we are any less of a suspect in these alleged chemical attacks. 

Trying to find the truth in things is a noble pursuit, but what happens when you can't? What do you do when there is so much disinformation and propaganda in circulation these days, that truth is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles?

You either pick a side, or you pick no side.

That's what I find so hard to understand in these discussions. Remaining loyal to your country I understand. Staying neutral based on lack of evidence I can understand. The thing I don't understand is the way some on these forums - from Western nations - jump straight to criticizing their own countries and defending the likes of Putin and Assad. It's crazy.

Take a story, such as one published today:

Russian bots behind '4,000% rise' in spread of lies after Salisbury and Syria attacks - Govt analysis

"Online activity by Russian bots, trolls and automated accounts has increased by 4,000% in the days and weeks following the Salisbury poisoning and suspected chemical attack in Syria.

Government analysis has identified "Kremlin inspired" accounts that have repeatedly posted messages to "spread disinformation and distort the truth" - described by Prime Minister Theresa May as "part of a wider effort to undermine the international system".

One Twitter account identified by the UK Government as being a Russian bot, @Partisangirl, posted more than 2,300 tweets in less than a fortnight - an average of 200 posts a day.

It's estimated those tweets reached around 62 million people."

Myself, I have no reason to doubt the validity of this story, so I lean towards option A; remain loyal to my country.

I always try to keep an open mind though, so there's a part of me that keeps option B in mind; need more evidence.

Then we have the option C people; more Western propaganda to discredit Russia... I just do not understand this mentality at all :no:

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Farmer77
15 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Trying to find the truth in things is a noble pursuit, but what happens when you can't? What do you do when there is so much disinformation and propaganda in circulation these days, that truth is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles?

You either pick a side, or you pick no side.

Ive chosen to try and side with the truth, and if I cant ill keep looking for it. No need to pick sides, my side has already been picked, its mine LOL. 

16 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

That's what I find so hard to understand in these discussions. Remaining loyal to your country I understand. Staying neutral based on lack of evidence I can understand. The thing I don't understand is the way some on these forums - from Western nations - jump straight to criticizing their own countries and defending the likes of Putin and Assad. It's crazy

I can only speak for myself but for me saying things like hold up we don't actually know Assad was responsible, or even recognizing that he was fighting terrorism  isn't defending him, at all, its about defending truth. 

24 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Myself, I have no reason to doubt the validity of this story, so I lean towards option A; remain loyal to my country.

I always try to keep an open mind though, so there's a part of me that keeps option B in mind; need more evidence.

Then we have the option C people; more Western propaganda to discredit Russia... I just do not understand this mentality at all :no:

 I think for me my positions have evolved (as in changed not as in became a superior version) to the point that I don't see identifying problems or even culpability in my nation is being unloyal. From an American viewpoint I actually view it as being loyal to the founding fathers original vision for our country. 

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bee
23 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Trying to find the truth in things is a noble pursuit, but what happens when you can't? What do you do when there is so much disinformation and propaganda in circulation these days, that truth is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles?

You either pick a side, or you pick no side.

That's what I find so hard to understand in these discussions. Remaining loyal to your country I understand. Staying neutral based on lack of evidence I can understand. The thing I don't understand is the way some on these forums - from Western nations - jump straight to criticizing their own countries and defending the likes of Putin and Assad. It's crazy.

Take a story, such as one published today:

Russian bots behind '4,000% rise' in spread of lies after Salisbury and Syria attacks - Govt analysis

"Online activity by Russian bots, trolls and automated accounts has increased by 4,000% in the days and weeks following the Salisbury poisoning and suspected chemical attack in Syria.

Government analysis has identified "Kremlin inspired" accounts that have repeatedly posted messages to "spread disinformation and distort the truth" - described by Prime Minister Theresa May as "part of a wider effort to undermine the international system".

One Twitter account identified by the UK Government as being a Russian bot, @Partisangirl, posted more than 2,300 tweets in less than a fortnight - an average of 200 posts a day.

It's estimated those tweets reached around 62 million people."

Myself, I have no reason to doubt the validity of this story, so I lean towards option A; remain loyal to my country.

I always try to keep an open mind though, so there's a part of me that keeps option B in mind; need more evidence.

Then we have the option C people; more Western propaganda to discredit Russia... I just do not understand this mentality at all :no:

 

from your link -

Quote

One of the accounts named by the Government - @Ian56789 - has told Sky News that he is not in the employment of the Kremlin.

He said: "I have been campaigning against the Neocons and the Neocon Wars since January 2002, when I first realised Dick Cheney and the PNAC crowd were going to use 9/11 as the pretext to launch a disastrous invasion of Iraq.

"This has nothing to do with Russia. It has EVERYTHING to do with the massive lies constantly told by the UK & US governments about their illegal Wars of Aggression."


and here he is one of the alleged Russian Bots :) ------- Ian5678--------- he brings up a good point starting around 6:00 about when people say 
things like ...."do you support Britain".......... (much in the way you make a point if insinuating that people who do not blindly follow the
government line are disloyal to the country) --- and 'Ian' says (in so many words)... what do they mean by Britain....? Do they mean
the 60 million people who live here or a small governement clique.... ?..... 

I'm not on Twitter but I'm guessing that usually the high number of posts from people on Twitter are re~tweets... ?

And someone who is fired up on the political situation... maybe watching in disbelief as we are expected to swallow any old BS coming
from the government and MPs.... might do quite a lot of re~tweeting... Ian was banned but then reinstated on Twitter ---

I suppose when it became pretty obvious that he was just a regular citizen with a passion for politics and NOT a software application....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot

An Internet Bot, also known as web robot, WWW robot or simply bot, is a software application that runs automated tasks (scripts) over the Internet.

 

So............. do you doubt the validity of the story now..... ?

 

Edited by bee

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bee
2 minutes ago, bee said:

and here he is one of the alleged Russian Bots :) ------- Ian5678--------- he brings up a good point starting around 6:00 about when people say 
things like ...."do you support Britain".......... (much in the way you make a point if insinuating that people who do not blindly follow the
government line are disloyal to the country) --- and 'Ian' says (in so many words)... what do they mean by Britain....? Do they mean
the 60 million people who live here or a small governement clique.... ?..... 

I'm not on Twitter but I'm guessing that usually the high number of posts from people on Twitter are re~tweets... ?

And someone who is fired up on the political situation... maybe watching in disbelief as we are expected to swallow any old BS coming
from the government and MPs.... might do quite a lot of re~tweeting... Ian was banned but then reinstated on Twitter ---

I suppose when it became pretty obvious that he was just a regular citizen with a passion for politics and NOT a software application....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot

An Internet Bot, also known as web robot, WWW robot or simply bot, is a software application that runs automated tasks (scripts) over the Internet.

 

So............. do you doubt the validity of the story now..... ?

 

the above is addressed to @LV-426

that last post got messed up with the quote and what I said so I've done some of it again....

 

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bee

 

and Partisangirl............ ?

was Theresa May right about her being a software application.... ?

well she has a wiki entry and looks pretty real to me on videos... ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maram_Susli

Maram Susli (Arabic: مرام سوسلي), also known as Mimi al-Laham, PartisanGirl, Syrian Girl and Syrian Sister,[1] is a Syrian-Australian YouTuber who does videos on topics such as the Syrian Civil War, conspiracy theories and the Gamergate controversy.

 

BREAKING: SYRIANGIRL Explains Who Is Behind The Latest "Chemical Attack" In Douma, Syria

349,980 views

 

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LV-426

Fair play bee, and good catch.

I should have recognized "Partisangirl" actually, from the Gamergate debacle.

So where do I stand now?

Maybe a little more skeptical, but unsurprised to be honest... leaning a bit more towards option B :P

The first thing I'd say is that I'm not surprised by the government's faux pas regarding technology. I have a background in computing, including doing a degree in software engineering, and the ineptitude of the government on technology issues is startling at times.

For example, Amber Rudd's belief that it would be possible to ban end-to-end encryption on the internet - it wouldn't just be impractical, it would completely negate privacy and security on the Internet, e.g. with banking, medical records, etc.

Call for encryption ban pits Rudd against industry and colleagues

I don't believe the faux pas completely undermines the story though. Disinformation is rife these days, and is as likely to be spread by people, as by bots:

Scientists prove that truth is no match for fiction on Twitter

"Researchers find fake news reaches users up to 20 times faster than factual content – and real users are more likely to spread it than bots"

As to these two particular protagonists, people need to make their own minds up. My personal opinion is conspiracy nutjobs.

The Sky News video you posted, I'd say the guy's ravings pretty much speak for themself - I had to laugh at him quoting "credible journalists", going on to say "there aren't any of those on Sky News" though :lol:

As to Partisangirl, again, people need to judge for themselves. In my opinion she's another conspiracy theorist with an added rabid desire for attention...

"Some of her more controversial assertions include that 9/11 was an 'inside job', that Ebola could be a US biological weapon and that chemical weapons are Syria's 'only hope'." :wacko:

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ChaosRose
On 4/20/2018 at 11:10 AM, Farmer77 said:

Ive chosen to try and side with the truth, and if I cant ill keep looking for it. No need to pick sides, my side has already been picked, its mine LOL. 

I can only speak for myself but for me saying things like hold up we don't actually know Assad was responsible, or even recognizing that he was fighting terrorism  isn't defending him, at all, its about defending truth. 

 I think for me my positions have evolved (as in changed not as in became a superior version) to the point that I don't see identifying problems or even culpability in my nation is being unloyal. From an American viewpoint I actually view it as being loyal to the founding fathers original vision for our country. 

Except that everyone does know that he's responsible.

It's like the flat earthers still trying to say the jury's out. 

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bee
12 hours ago, LV-426 said:

As to these two particular protagonists, people need to make their own minds up. My personal opinion is conspiracy nutjobs.

The Sky News video you posted, I'd say the guy's ravings pretty much speak for themself - I had to laugh at him quoting "credible journalists", going on to say "there aren't any of those on Sky News" though :lol:

As to Partisangirl, again, people need to judge for themselves. In my opinion she's another conspiracy theorist with an added rabid desire for attention...

 

whatever your personal opinions are..... the fact is that UK intelligence, the UK government and our PM has been caught out 
unequivocally - spreading false information intended to further demonize Russia - aided and abetted by Media outlets...

I, too laughed at what 'Ian56789' said about Sky News when he was ON Sky news - because IMO he was absolutely right - and he had the
nerve to say it...  a priceless moment and I thank him for that - :) 

The Guardian, once a respectable newspaper, also ran the story with the false claims...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/19/russia-fake-news-salisbury-poisoning-twitter-bots-uk

ironically accusing Russia of spreading fake news... in an article where they spread fake news... :wacko:

quote ~

One bot, @Ian56789, was sending 100 posts a day during a 12-day period from 7 April, and reached 23 million users, before the account was suspended. It focused on claims that the chemical weapons attack on Douma had been falsified, using the hashtag #falseflag. Another, @Partisangirl, reached 61 million users with 2,300 posts over the same 12-day period.

'Partisangirl' hit back saying that the various accusers can't even get their statistics right - 

 

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bee

 

re the Guardian Article ...

Jeremy Corbyn is mentioned  and again is one of the few politicians (IMO)  making sensible comments...
when so many of them appear to have lost their minds and all sense of reason in the ongoing whirlpool
of negative spin and corrosive anti Russia propaganda...sucking the country down into a warmongering
state of mind.... looks like we've got our own London ''swamp'' that needs draining like the Washington
one over the Pond.... the polluted Whitehall Whirlpool dragging us down into the abyss of war.... :ph34r:

  

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has called for “a shift from the rhetoric of endless confrontation with Russia”, believing that it “could also help lower the temperature and make a UN consensus for multilateral action to end Syria’s agony more likely”.


amen to that

 

 

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bee
13 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Fair play bee, and good catch.

 

oh --- forgot to say

cheers for that ... ;)

 

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RAyMO
50 minutes ago, bee said:

looks like we've got our own London ''swamp'' that needs draining like the Washington
one over the Pond.... the polluted Whitehall Whirlpool dragging us down into the abyss of war.

Oh the Swamps need draining Bee on that we agree.

Where we will always disagree is who can be trusted to be in charge of the operation.

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bee
10 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Oh the Swamps need draining Bee on that we agree.

Where we will always disagree is who can be trusted to be in charge of the operation.

 

:o

where did you buy your Crystal Ball -  or did ya Granny pass it down.....  :P

 

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stevewinn

Its a great thing the internet you cannot fail to find "evidence" which suits ones individual opinions or views. - if we are to believe - even a cure for Cancer is to be found. yet not in the real word.

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LV-426
58 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Its a great thing the internet you cannot fail to find "evidence" which suits ones individual opinions or views. - if we are to believe - even a cure for Cancer is to be found. yet not in the real word.

I'll leave the last word to the great philosopher, Harry Callahan, on "opinions" :lol:

 

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Farmer77
12 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Except that everyone does know that he's responsible.

It's like the flat earthers still trying to say the jury's out. 

When the evidence is declassified and shown to us Ill believe it. Until then **** them and their secret squirrel ****. 

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ExpandMyMind
On 22/04/2018 at 12:28 PM, Farmer77 said:

When the evidence is declassified and shown to us Ill believe it. Until then **** them and their secret squirrel ****. 

Read this guy's thread. He makes a compelling case against Assad's denials. 

I wasn't sure about Assad and chemical attacks until I read the actual history of attacks in Syria.

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Farmer77
14 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Read this guy's thread. He makes a compelling case against Assad's denials. 

I wasn't sure about Assad and chemical attacks until I read the actual history of attacks in Syria.

It is a compelling case thus far. My argument hasn't ever really been a defense of Assad, just a recognition of familiar factors which allow for shenanigans. ......still reading the thread 

Edited by Farmer77

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bee
1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Read this guy's thread. He makes a compelling case against Assad's denials. 

I wasn't sure about Assad and chemical attacks until I read the actual history of attacks in Syria.

 

that Reddit thread smells so bad you need one of those big yellow protective suits they go waddling round Salisbury in
to read it....  ^_^

 

 

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ExpandMyMind
25 minutes ago, bee said:

 

that Reddit thread smells so bad you need one of those big yellow protective suits they go waddling round Salisbury in
to read it....  ^_^

 

 

I suppose r/conspiracy is more to your tastes.

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bee
2 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I suppose r/conspiracy is more to your tastes.

 

that thread was dripping with conspirators..... 

.... like hey man.... fk Dude... good job.... ...who'd a thort it .... let's spread your hard work that was such an effort hither and thither... 

 

 

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Vlad the Mighty
12 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Read this guy's thread. He makes a compelling case against Assad's denials. 

I wasn't sure about Assad and chemical attacks until I read the actual history of attacks in Syria.

that they were in fact faked by the Oscar winning White Helmets and the Good Rebels [who are of course the same thing] to lure easily gulled American Presidents into intervening on their behalf? 

Edited by Vlad the Mighty

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