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LV-426

Critically ill man is former Russian spy

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stevewinn

People can follow events at the Russian Embassy twitter account. Be interesting to see what they tweet as the deadline approaches and then passes.

https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

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LV-426
2 hours ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

Who gave her the intel, the same Agency that said Saddam had WMD'S. Oh and by the way who is going to stand up when Putin squares up not May and her cabinet.

What's the alternative then?

Should we assume British Intelligence is at best incompetent, at worst corrupt?

Should we let chemical weapons be deployed on British streets without saying a peep?

Deliver evidence, absolutely... I have to admit though, I'm pretty stumped by the balance of some of the finger-pointing between ourselves and Russia in this thread. Are you guys feeling alright? :lol:

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RAyMO
2 hours ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

Who gave her the intel, the same Agency that said Saddam had WMD'S. Oh and by the way who is going to stand up when Putin squares up not May and her cabinet.

I could be totally wrong as I am working from memory, but I think in regards to WMD, the UK agencies were luv to say more that there was a possibility. - The whole certainty, 45min thing, was added by politicians acting as puppies for the Bush administration.

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Grey Area

This doesn’t sit right in my mind.  Personally I think there are layers to this, the public layer we are all watching and the top secret layer being played out in secret.

I can’t understand what Russia had to gain from this if it was a revenge killing, and too obvious that it was Russia that did it, there are easier, quieter ways to assassinate someone, and if you have the ability to bring in weapons grade nerve agents into the country and poison an individual without suspicion, you certainly have the ability to murder and hide the body a lot easier and cleaner than this without civilian casualties.

Either this guy still had some whopping intel on the Russian state, or I think Russia has been framed, there are plenty of states and institutions that would like to see further sanctions imposed on Russia.  Or maybe I’ve just watched too many seasons of 24.

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ExpandMyMind
8 hours ago, Grey Area said:

This doesn’t sit right in my mind.  Personally I think there are layers to this, the public layer we are all watching and the top secret layer being played out in secret.

I can’t understand what Russia had to gain from this if it was a revenge killing, and too obvious that it was Russia that did it, there are easier, quieter ways to assassinate someone, and if you have the ability to bring in weapons grade nerve agents into the country and poison an individual without suspicion, you certainly have the ability to murder and hide the body a lot easier and cleaner than this without civilian casualties.

Either this guy still had some whopping intel on the Russian state, or I think Russia has been framed, there are plenty of states and institutions that would like to see further sanctions imposed on Russia.  Or maybe I’ve just watched too many seasons of 24.

You're not getting it. The whole point was to send a message, loud and clear. Both to the he west and to others who worked with Steele or might be thinking of turning.

I, personally, suspect that it was also a test to gauge Trump's reaction - which I'm guessing was a success. It's looking like Trump will stand with Russia on this.

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Vlad the Mighty

I know the patriots who are leading the resistance to the Global Demon think whenever I question the sanity of the Russkiephobic hysteria that's everywhere these days that it's proof that I'm a paid troll of Putin, but honestly, the reaction to this whole extremely questionable conspiracy really does reach new levels. Would the brave patriots who are incandescent with patriotic fury that the Demon has launched a Chemical Weapons Attack on Britain clap in approval, or perhaps even sign up to join in, if Prime Minister May and her absurd little tinpot regime was to launch Operation Barbarossa II against the Demon, with Boris marching at their head, spluttering incoherently and spittle flying from his lips and hair flying wildly? What would it take to placate those who are hungry for vengeance?

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bee
12 hours ago, stevewinn said:

People can follow events at the Russian Embassy twitter account. Be interesting to see what they tweet as the deadline approaches and then passes.

https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

thanks for the link....

 

oh for a sensible and civilized response to all this ----- instead of whipping up the public into a state of hysteria....

is there a hope in hell that there will be a joint investigation.....?

of course not because that would be too sensible and civilized - and not part of the plan...

ie the plan to isolate and demonize Putin and Russia....

 

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Vlad the Mighty

Are you still remaining loyal to Prime Minister Theresa May, bee? Despite the fact that she seems to have lost her head completely and has started thinking of herself as the reincarnation of Churchill, Mrs. T and , somewhat less propitiously, Neville Chamberlain, with her Ultimatums to Moscow. 

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Vlad the Mighty

Two articles worth reading for anyone,if there is anyone remaining, who hasn't been consumed by patriotic indignation:

Russian to Judgment

By Craig Murray

March 13, 2018 "Information Clearing House" -  The same people who assured you that Saddam Hussein had WMD’s now assure you Russian “novochok” nerve agents are being wielded by Vladimir Putin to attack people on British soil

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48941.htm

 

Theresa May's "45 Minutes" Moment

Today the British government made some dubious assertions about Saddam's chemical weapons the poisoning of its double agentSergej Skripal.

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/theresa-mays-45-minutes-claim.html#more

 

Some of the comments to the latter are very funny. Some are slightly deranged, as you might expect. 

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bee
10 hours ago, Grey Area said:

This doesn’t sit right in my mind.  Personally I think there are layers to this, the public layer we are all watching and the top secret layer being played out in secret.

I can’t understand what Russia had to gain from this if it was a revenge killing, and too obvious that it was Russia that did it, there are easier, quieter ways to assassinate someone, and if you have the ability to bring in weapons grade nerve agents into the country and poison an individual without suspicion, you certainly have the ability to murder and hide the body a lot easier and cleaner than this without civilian casualties.

Either this guy still had some whopping intel on the Russian state, or I think Russia has been framed, there are plenty of states and institutions that would like to see further sanctions imposed on Russia.  Or maybe I’ve just watched too many seasons of 24.

 

I agree that it doesn't sit right ---- and I would bet that it's a frame up -

Or that the spy guy was involved in something nefarious to do with a nerve gas connected to Porton Down -

Funny how it is supposed to be the worlds most deadly nerve gas but it didn't even kill him or his daughter - 

Not much of an assassination attempt if, as we are encouraged to believe... trouble was taken to get the super deadly nerve agent 
into the country and to the bench.... then.... it didn't even kill them...

 

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bee
7 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Are you still remaining loyal to Prime Minister Theresa May, bee? Despite the fact that she seems to have lost her head completely and has started thinking of herself as the reincarnation of Churchill, Mrs. T and , somewhat less propitiously, Neville Chamberlain, with her Ultimatums to Moscow. 

 

I am definitely not supporting her over all this --- 

How long before there are cries to boycott the World Cup - that would be a serious test for the public...
would their (state manufactured) hate for Putin and Russia over ride their love of the game + the world cup....
I suppose everyone would be encouraged to blame Russia though... but would the public start to feel like pawns in a propaganda game....??

anyway we'll see whether that happens - the boycott thing --- 

 

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Setton
1 hour ago, bee said:

 

I agree that it doesn't sit right ---- and I would bet that it's a frame up -

Or that the spy guy was involved in something nefarious to do with a nerve gas connected to Porton Down -

Funny how it is supposed to be the worlds most deadly nerve gas but it didn't even kill him or his daughter - 

Not much of an assassination attempt if, as we are encouraged to believe... trouble was taken to get the super deadly nerve agent 
into the country and to the bench.... then.... it didn't even kill them...

 

They didn't have to bring it into the country. If you're going to entertain conspiracy theories, at least keep up with the story. Novichok can be made with everyday materials but requires a high level of technical competence.

In other words, they didn't need to smuggle the weapon in, just someone who knows how to make it. I suspect (but this is only speculation) that is why the Skripals survived - whoever was sent to make the agent botched it.

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LV-426
4 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

I know the patriots who are leading the resistance to the Global Demon think whenever I question the sanity of the Russkiephobic hysteria that's everywhere these days that it's proof that I'm a paid troll of Putin, but honestly, the reaction to this whole extremely questionable conspiracy really does reach new levels. Would the brave patriots who are incandescent with patriotic fury that the Demon has launched a Chemical Weapons Attack on Britain clap in approval, or perhaps even sign up to join in, if Prime Minister May and her absurd little tinpot regime was to launch Operation Barbarossa II against the Demon, with Boris marching at their head, spluttering incoherently and spittle flying from his lips and hair flying wildly? What would it take to placate those who are hungry for vengeance?

With a flair for the dramatic like this, Vlad, you should see if the writers of the new series "Game of Throneski" need an additional scriptwriter! :lol:

Edited by LV-426
Typo
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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Setton said:

They didn't have to bring it into the country. If you're going to entertain conspiracy theories, at least keep up with the story. Novichok can be made with everyday materials but requires a high level of technical competence.

In other words, they didn't need to smuggle the weapon in, just someone who knows how to make it. I suspect (but this is only speculation) that is why the Skripals survived - whoever was sent to make the agent botched it.

The components might be 'everyday materials', but apparantly converting them into the nerve gas is NOT an easy thing to do.

A microwave oven is made of "everyday materials".... could YOU build one  ?

Rather than us quoting conspiracy websites, how about we listen to one of the scientists who actually INVENTED the stuff ? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-14/only-russia-could-be-behind-uk-poison-attack-toxin-inventor-says/9546298

Quote

... ... Vil Mirzayanov, 83, said he had no doubt Russian President Vladimir Putin was responsible, given Russia maintained tight control over its

Novichok stockpile and that the agent is too complicated for a non-state actor to have weaponised. ...

 

Edited by RoofGardener

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LV-426

Some highlights from PM's Questions:

May statement on Russian spy case

*braces against Vlad's wrath*

 

"May outlines the 'only conclusion' in the spy case

Theresa May says there were only two conclusions following the Salisbury incident, that either this was a direct act by the Russian state against the UK or the Russian government had lost control of a military grade agent.

Mrs May says the Russians have shown complete disdain for what happened and says the only conclusion was that the Russian state was culpable for the attempted murder of the Skripals."

 

"UK expels 23 Russian diplomats

Theresa May says the UK will now expel 23 Russian diplomats who have been identified as undeclared intelligence officers."

 

"Theresa May: Russian state assets to be frozen

The UK prime minister says she hopes there will be cross party support for these measures, which include increased checks on private flights, customs and freezing Russian state assets.

"There is no place for these people or their money in our country," she says."

 

"Ministers and Royal Family will not attend World Cup

There will be no attendance of ministers or the Royal Family to this year's World Cup.

Mrs May said the UK had no issue with the Russian people and said hopes had been high for a close relationship after the end of the Cold War.

But, she added: "It's tragic that President Putin has chosen to act in this way."

And the message was that "those who seek us harm - you are not welcome here"."

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Setton
7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

The components might be 'everyday materials', but apparantly converting them into the nerve gas is NOT an easy thing to do.

A microwave oven is made of "everyday materials".... could YOU build one  ?

Rather than us quoting conspiracy websites, how about we listen to one of the scientists who actually INVENTED the stuff ? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-14/only-russia-could-be-behind-uk-poison-attack-toxin-inventor-says/9546298

 

That's exactly my point. The KNOWLEDGE is complex, the MATERIALS aren't.

Therefore, there's no need for Russia to actually bring the nerve agent in itself, they can send someone with the knowledge to build and deploy it here. 

Your microwave analogy is flawed. It should be 'can I acquire a microwave here and take it to another country without border services noticing'. No.

So how would I get it to another country? I'd send someone who knows how to build one to that country empty-handed. They can build it when they get there.

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Setton
6 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Some highlights from PM's Questions:

May statement on Russian spy case

*braces against Vlad's wrath*

 

"May outlines the 'only conclusion' in the spy case

Theresa May says there were only two conclusions following the Salisbury incident, that either this was a direct act by the Russian state against the UK or the Russian government had lost control of a military grade agent.

Mrs May says the Russians have shown complete disdain for what happened and says the only conclusion was that the Russian state was culpable for the attempted murder of the Skripals."

 

"UK expels 23 Russian diplomats

Theresa May says the UK will now expel 23 Russian diplomats who have been identified as undeclared intelligence officers."

 

"Theresa May: Russian state assets to be frozen

The UK prime minister says she hopes there will be cross party support for these measures, which include increased checks on private flights, customs and freezing Russian state assets.

"There is no place for these people or their money in our country," she says."

 

"Ministers and Royal Family will not attend World Cup

There will be no attendance of ministers or the Royal Family to this year's World Cup.

Mrs May said the UK had no issue with the Russian people and said hopes had been high for a close relationship after the end of the Cold War.

But, she added: "It's tragic that President Putin has chosen to act in this way."

And the message was that "those who seek us harm - you are not welcome here"."

Watching it live now.

It's a pleasant change to be able to agree with the Prime Minister on something. I thought Corbyn's response was lacking BUT did raise the important question of whether the government will send samples to Russia to confirm the source of the agent used. This would allow the government to move from 'highly likely' that Russia is responsible to 'certain' (either by the results or by Russia's refusal to co-operate). 

Personally, I would like to know why Theresa May refused to answer this point. And why Corbyn didn't challenge that.

 

EDIT: To clarify this, I think Russia IS responsible but we're missing an opportunity to strengthen our hand further by calling their bluff.

Edited by Setton
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WoIverine

.

Edited by WoIverine

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ExpandMyMind

Her response was a bit weak.

I mean why just the Royals boycotting the World Cup? Why not the team? We here in Scotland would have joined your boycott without even having to think about it :lol:

I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Magnitsky Act. It would be nice if we could have put pressure on other European countries, as well - 10% of all Russian trade goes to the Netherlands alone - but with Brexit we have zero influence in Europe and likely never will have again.

In fact, I'd say that not having the economic might and political support of Europe behind us probably played a part in Russia's brash actions. They're likely testing the waters of their new American bestie and the recently crumbled UK/EU relations.

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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Setton
5 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Her response was a bit weak.

I mean why just the Royals boycotting the World Cup? Why not the team? We here in Scotland would have joined your boycott without even having to think about it :lol:

I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Magnitsky Act. It would be nice if we could have put pressure on other European countries, as well - 10% of all Russian trade goes to the Netherlands alone - but with Brexit we have zero influence in Europe and likely never will have again.

In fact, I'd say that not having the economic might and political support of Europe behind us probably played a part in Russia's brash actions. They're likely testing the waters of their new American bestie and the recently crumbled UK/EU relations.

She did also say she'd be bringing in the Magnitsky measures.I thought her statement was strong but responses to questions have been rather weak and evasive.

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ExpandMyMind
4 minutes ago, Setton said:

She did also say she'd be bringing in the Magnitsky measures.I thought her statement was strong but responses to questions have been rather weak and evasive.

Well, that's good. They've been killing people here for years and the government has been ignoring it.

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RoofGardener
36 minutes ago, Setton said:

She did also say she'd be bringing in the Magnitsky measures.I thought her statement was strong but responses to questions have been rather weak and evasive.

Perhaps she doesn't want to give Putin advance information ? I mean.. those pesky Bolsheviks DO read the newspapers, you know :P

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LV-426
3 hours ago, Setton said:

It's a pleasant change to be able to agree with the Prime Minister on something. I thought Corbyn's response was lacking BUT did raise the important question of whether the government will send samples to Russia to confirm the source of the agent used. This would allow the government to move from 'highly likely' that Russia is responsible to 'certain' (either by the results or by Russia's refusal to co-operate).

Rather than sending samples to Russia, I'd prefer to see Russian scientists, along with neutral third parties, granted access in as open a way as possible, taking into account the sensitive nature of the agent involved.

Interestingly, an interview I saw this morning suggested that UN representatives may have already had access to the substance. The suggestion came from a former chemical weapon specialist in the MoD, but I've no idea if it was speculation or based on anything solid.

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Setton
1 minute ago, LV-426 said:

Rather than sending samples to Russia, I'd prefer to see Russian scientists, along with neutral third parties, granted access in as open a way as possible, taking into account the sensitive nature of the agent involved.

Interestingly, an interview I saw this morning suggested that UN representatives may have already had access to the substance. The suggestion came from a former chemical weapon specialist in the MoD, but I've no idea if it was speculation or based on anything solid.

That would work too. Basically just something so the Russians can't deny it's theirs. 

And I can't remember exactly what she said but I think May mentioned in passing something that gave the impression UN experts have already been involved. 

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Grey Area

I maintain that there are layers to this.  I don’t think we will know the real story behind this, and ever comprehend the true intelligence implications behind the measures.  

I do find it interesting that the diplomats expelled were known to be undeclared intelligence officers, and that is the game being played.  We will see in a few days the undeclared MI6 operatives that Russia expels in retaliation.

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