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LV-426

Critically ill man is former Russian spy

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ExpandMyMind
16 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

I maintain that there are layers to this.  I don’t think we will know the real story behind this, and ever comprehend the true intelligence implications behind the measures.  

I do find it interesting that the diplomats expelled were known to be undeclared intelligence officers, and that is the game being played.  We will see in a few days the undeclared MI6 operatives that Russia expels in retaliation.

I suspect that most of them will already be busy getting the hell out of Dodge.

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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stevewinn

Russian double agent working for the British, was serving a prison sentence in Russia for espionage was later freed in a "Spy"prisoner exchanged, and 10 years later an assassination attempt on him, with Military grade Nerve agent with a chemical signature to known or registered on file at the UN as Russian stockpiles.

If Putin and his Govt are telling the truth and they know nothing then its worse than we feared, It means we have rogue operatives within the Russian Govt and Secret Service who have access to Russian chemical weapons and wield them without state authorisation.  

But then again this is the same Russia who invaded Ukraine - Crimea and denied the "little Green men" were Russia forces. As the world looked on we all knew they were Russian Forces and yet as it stands today those forces where not Russian. - I think we know the truth.

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LV-426
8 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

If Putin and his Govt are telling the truth and they know nothing then its worse than we feared, It means we have rogue operatives within the Russian Govt and Secret Service who have access to Russian chemical weapons and wield them without state authorisation. 

Blimey!

It's starting to sound like the plot to The Sum of All Fears... :o

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bee

 

a refreshingly mature discussion about it all for anyone who's interested....

 

“It appears” and “highly likely” are the words used by UK Prime Minister Theresa May pinning blame on Russia for the poison attack on a former Russian intelligence officer turned British spy. Claims are made and threats flaunted. Of course all without evidence. CrossTalking with Alexander Mercouris, Charles Shoebridge, and Annie Machon.

 

 

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bee

 

Looks like it's a myth that ONLY Russia has the novichok nerve agent or formula for it - 

One of the questions that should be asked is who gains by this further demonization and isolation of Russia -
see countries mentioned in the tweet below for suspects....  and let's not forget the Globalist Agenda that requires
the subjugation of Russia.... (and America under Trump and the UK 'under' Brexit).....  

 

 

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hetrodoxly

Until proven otherwise i have no reason to believe the word of a foreign government over my own.

Corbyn's antics and party politics over the poisoning's is a complete disgrace.

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bee
1 minute ago, hetrodoxly said:

Until proven otherwise i have no reason to believe the word of a foreign government over my own.

Corbyn's antics and party politics over the poisoning's is a complete disgrace.

 

I think proof is going to be a rare commodity one way or the other with this whole sorry affair...

 

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hetrodoxly
20 minutes ago, bee said:

 

I think proof is going to be a rare commodity one way or the other with this whole sorry affair...

 

I wouldn't disagree with that statement but i'm going to believe our own governments lies over the Russian lies.

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stevewinn

 

46 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I wouldn't disagree with that statement but i'm going to believe our own governments lies over the Russian lies.

Corbyn is a national disgrace, I see the Labour party or back benches are furious with him and are going to put out their own statement condemning Russia.

I've heard and seen people on here saying - is this the same intelligence service, Iraq WMD etc... i'd like to point out, we no longer have a Labour PM altering the intelligence findings before presenting to parliment and the public. I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy but the Russian state is behind, sanctioned this assassination attempt. Its in this murky world Mi6 operate and they know how the FSB operate. It would have been easier to just shoot him dead, no fuss or drama, - But nerve agent the method used is chosen for the desired political effect, like leaving a calling card. the UK Govt security service know whose done it, but designed to cause confusion within the wider population as to pin it on Russia means shedding light on the dark murky world.

Edit to add, I've been watching the UN meeting and the Russians are up against the wall no-one is buying their 'it wasn't us' line. by my count over fifty countries have take to the floor and condemned this unprecedented attack on the UK. Good speeches by Poland, Sweden and the USA.

Its such a shame we have a chemical attack on British soil against Citizens on our streets and half the world condemn Russia and yet some of our own Citizens and opposition leader Corbyn think otherwise. What does the USA, Canada, Netherlands, Sweden, France ect.. know that Corbyn doesn't. 

 

Edited by stevewinn
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RAyMO
9 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Theresa May says the UK will now expel 23 Russian diplomats who have been identified as undeclared intelligence officers."

This has me puzzled - if the UK had identified these 23 individuals as undeclared spies - why haven't the uk expelled them upon discovery as a matter of recourse

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RAyMO
9 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I mean why just the Royals boycotting the World Cup? Why not the team?

I think the team will boycott world cup - right after the group stages.  ;)

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ExpandMyMind
4 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

This has me puzzled - if the UK had identified these 23 individuals as undeclared spies - why haven't the uk expelled them upon discovery as a matter of recourse

Counter intelligence. If you know someone is a spy, but they don't know you know, then you can feed them false info. If they know you know they're a spy, then you can feed them true info, which they might think is false, and so on and so on. 

There's layers upon layers, man.

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Setton
3 hours ago, bee said:

 

a refreshingly mature discussion about it all for anyone who's interested....

 

“It appears” and “highly likely” are the words used by UK Prime Minister Theresa May pinning blame on Russia for the poison attack on a former Russian intelligence officer turned British spy. Claims are made and threats flaunted. Of course all without evidence. CrossTalking with Alexander Mercouris, Charles Shoebridge, and Annie Machon.

 

 

And Russia could have avoided leaving it to speculation by responding to the government's request for an explanation. They decided to mock instead. 

That said, the government could also put that to rest by investigating through international channels and working with Russian authorities. Either they refuse to cooperate and show themselves guilty or they can prove their innocence. 

Unless they do that, we'll assume they're most likely responsible. 

2 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

This has me puzzled - if the UK had identified these 23 individuals as undeclared spies - why haven't the uk expelled them upon discovery as a matter of recourse

Because I expect they all play the same game. We expel the spies we know about, they expel the ones they know about. 

I guess it's a toss up between which is more important, knowing about your enemy or stopping then knowing about you. 

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RAyMO
3 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Counter intelligence. If you know someone is a spy, but they don't know you know, then you can feed them false info. If they know you know they're a spy, then you can feed them true info, which they might think is false, and so on and so on. 

There's layers upon layers, man.

 

2 minutes ago, Setton said:

Because I expect they all play the same game. We expel the spies we know about, they expel the ones they know about. 

I guess it's a toss up between which is more important, knowing about your enemy or stopping then knowing about you. 

Makes sense in that respect, thanks - note to self read tinker sailor solder spy.

Edited by RAyMO
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LV-426
1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

I wouldn't disagree with that statement but i'm going to believe our own governments lies over the Russian lies.

Do our own politicians lie?

I believe they do when it comes to selling policies, skewing figures to alter public perception, etc.

I refuse to believe they'd knowingly put our own citizens at risk though. To buy into conspiracy theories such as that, you'd have to buy into conspiracy theories concerning the murder of Jo Cox too, and I'm not willing to consider our politicians as capable of authorizing cold-blooded murder.

Head down that path and we might as well start looking for a new home nation.

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ExpandMyMind
19 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Do our own politicians lie?

I believe they do when it comes to selling policies, skewing figures to alter public perception, etc.

I refuse to believe they'd knowingly put our own citizens at risk though. To buy into conspiracy theories such as that, you'd have to buy into conspiracy theories concerning the murder of Jo Cox too, and I'm not willing to consider our politicians as capable of authorizing cold-blooded murder.

Head down that path and we might as well start looking for a new home nation.

You could understand a false flag if it was some Arab country or Argentina or something, where there might end up being some sort of geopolitical benefit. But why make it up about a country that, militarily, is likely to kick our arses, if they don't just decide to nuke us. There's no logical reason to do so.

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Vlad the Mighty

Those of you who are still blustering in patriotic fury ought to read this. You will of course, just treat it with disdain and derision, since you know the truth, but there's no point trying to reason with fanaticism,. 

Quote

 

The former Soviet scientist, Vil Mirzanjaov, who 'blew the whistle' and wrote about the 'Novichoks', now lives in a $1 million home in the United States. The AFP news agency just interviewed him:

Mirzayanov, speaking at his home in Princeton, New Jersey, said he is convinced Russia carried it out as a way of intimidating opponents of President Vladimir Putin.

"Only the Russians" developed this class of nerve agents, said the chemist. "They kept it and are still keeping it in secrecy."

The only other possibility, he said, would be that someone used the formulas in his book to make such a weapon.

"Russia did it", says Mirzanjaov, "OR SOMEONE WHO READ MY BOOK".

 

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/theresa-mays-novichok-claims-fall-apart.html#more

That's right, it could only have been Him*,  since Only the Russians could Possibly have Made the Stuff!

* the World's Worst Tyrant

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bee
8 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Do our own politicians lie?

I believe they do when it comes to selling policies, skewing figures to alter public perception, etc.

I refuse to believe they'd knowingly put our own citizens at risk though. To buy into conspiracy theories such as that, you'd have to buy into conspiracy theories concerning the murder of Jo Cox too, and I'm not willing to consider our politicians as capable of authorizing cold-blooded murder.

Head down that path and we might as well start looking for a new home nation.

 

I'm kind of guessing that this is directed at me as well as hetrodoxly....... 

I'm patriotic but if I think that I'm being played for a fool with propaganda I don't like it - especially if I think it is detrimental to
the safety and future of the country - and world peace - 

It isn't necessarily always the politicians themselves but elements in the establishment who work behind the scenes and direct / advise politicians -
Like there might be various groups advising the govt on foreign policy ....

Anyway after reading your post a very quick search turned this up,,,,

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/how-the-british-government-subjected-thousands-of-people-to-chemical-and-biological-warfare-trials-10376411.html
 

During the Cold War, the British Government used the general public as unwitting biological and chemical warfare guinea pigs on a much greater scale than previously thought, according to new historical research.

In more than 750 secret operations, hundreds of thousands of ordinary Britons were subjected to ‘mock’ biological and chemical warfare attacks launched from aircraft, ships and road vehicles.

Up until now historians had thought that such operations had been much less extensive. The new research, carried out by Ulf Schmidt, Professor of Modern History at the University of Kent, has revealed that British military aircraft dropped thousands of kilos of a chemical of ‘largely unknown toxic potential’ on British civilian populations in and around Salisbury in Wiltshire, Cardington in Bedfordshire and Norwich in Norfolk.

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Vlad the Mighty
9 hours ago, RAyMO said:

This has me puzzled - if the UK had identified these 23 individuals as undeclared spies - why haven't the uk expelled them upon discovery as a matter of recourse

that's because they're making it up, as they are about everything else. 

 

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Vlad the Mighty

^ Besides, according to the above, this Russian Chemical Weapons Whistleblower may be a complete fraud, since not even the experts of Porton Down - who I'd put more faith in than the blitherings of politicians - seem to doubt that the whole alleged "program" actually existed at all.

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bee
48 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Those of you who are still blustering in patriotic fury ought to read this. You will of course, just treat it with disdain and derision, since you know the truth, but there's no point trying to reason with fanaticism,. 

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/theresa-mays-novichok-claims-fall-apart.html#more

That's right, it could only have been Him*,  since Only the Russians could Possibly have Made the Stuff!

* the World's Worst Tyrant


 

as time goes on more doubt about it all will circulate but by then the story will have become ingrained in the public psyche -
and the perception management will be largely successful...

also from the link....

re underlined below..... Dr David Kelly..... :unsure2:....... I'm not even going to go there but I couldn't help but notice his name... 

 

Quote

There is no independent evaluation of the alleged poison. The British government claims that its own chemical weapon laboratory at Porton Down, only a few miles from where the incident happened, has identified the poison as one of the 'Novichok' chemicals.

But in 2016 a leading chemist at Porton Down published a piece in a scientific journal that denied that such chemicals exist. (Tim Hayword and Craig Murray both point this out):

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published.(Black, 2016)

Robin Black. (2016) Development, Historical Use and Properties of Chemical Warfare Agents. Royal Society of Chemistry

 

Edited by bee

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bee

 

lots of people are going nuts about Jeremy Corbyn refusing to jump on the bandwagon and outright say it was Russia -
at these early stages...

well good for him- at least he has the guts to say what he really thinks - and the integrity not to cave in to pressure -

looks like the French government are also holding back from making a knee jerk judgement without proper evidence...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-row-corbyn-sergei-skripal-12187168

The spokesman added "we do need to base what we do on the facts with evidence rather than supposition" - despite Theresa May directly blaming Moscow.

He also hinted the Novichok nerve agent could have got into the hands of another state, saying "the break up of the Soviet state led to all sorts of material ending up in random hands.”

Mr Corbyn and his spokesman's approach was backed by the French government, which said "once the elements are proven, then the time will come for decisions".

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Vlad the Mighty
Quote

The Soviet chemical weapon laboratory in which Mirzanyanov had worked was in Uzbekistan, not in Russia as Theresa May falsely claims. The laboratory was dismantled with the active help of the United States.

Britain's Prime Minister Ms.May and her blustering little spittle-flying, hair-flying-wildly tame poodle Boris have been lying through their teeth, it seems.

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Setton

@Vlad the Mighty and @bee, let's entertain for a moment this conspiracy that the British government is responsible. Why would they leave the Skripals alive? If the aim is to paint Russia as the villain, what benefit would botching the assassination bring? 

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ExpandMyMind
10 hours ago, RAyMO said:

 

Makes sense in that respect, thanks - note to self read tinker sailor solder spy.

The film is pretty good. But you won't find many sailors! :lol:

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