The Us And Them Mentality!

[GoldenWolf]

35 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

And here in lies the problem. These are written without a full understanding and have caused much harm with misdiagnosis being commonplace.

Hogwash, misdiagnosis are rare, it's just they don't want people to see them for what they are.

[I'mConvinced]

6 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Hogwash, misdiagnosis are rare, it's just they don't want people to see them for what they are.

Of course they don't, with the prejudice shown here would you? I mean you're going to get called a mentally ill and dangerous psychopath even if you've been nothing but a benefit to society.

Here we are in a thread about us and them, I present a mildly radical view that psychopathy isn't an illness but an evolutionary trait yet no one will engage the evidence. This is the heart of the 'us and them' mentality and it's being shown by the very people claiming to want to break it.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

[GoldenWolf]

3 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Of course they don't, with the prejudice shown here would you? I mean you're going to get called a mentally ill and dangerous psychopath even if you've been nothing but a benefit to society.

Here we are in a thread about us and them, I present a mildly radical view that psychopathy isn't an illness but an evolutionary trait yet no one will engage the evidence. This is the heart of the 'us and them' mentality and it's being shown by the very people claiming to want to break it.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

Psychopaths always think they are a blessing to humanity, I assure you, it is the opposite.

[I'mConvinced]

18 minutes ago, Lilly said:

With all due respect, the people who author the DSM are Psychiatrists and Psychologists (with Doctorates) and are highest level of mental health professionals. To say these people aren't correct will entail a very high level of scientific and medical evidence in order to reach a level of refuting the DSM criteria. 

Yes and the person that wrote the book on psychopathy is now telling us he thinks he's got it all wrong. The evidence is mounting and he's come out publicly to say so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Hare

 

[+joc]

“You can pass on your genes by having one or two children and investing a lot into their well-being. But we know psychopaths’ relationships are impersonal, that they favour the strategy of having a lot of children, and then abandoning them.”

I seriously doubt that anyone has a strategy of such.  That is an utterly ridiiculous statement. 

[I'mConvinced]

2 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Psychopaths always think they are a blessing to humanity, I assure you, it is the opposite.

Like I say, address the evidence rather than setting up a straw man. 

Humanities greatest problem is a lack of understanding. We will always remain divided without it and the responses I've had since posting here make me understand the futility of discussion in this area. Frankly it's depressing.

[GoldenWolf]

1 minute ago, I'mConvinced said:

Yes and the person that wrote the book on psychopathy is now telling us he thinks he's got it all wrong. The evidence is mounting and he's come out publicly to say so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Hare

 

He wasn't the first person to write on psychopathy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Etymology

[I'mConvinced]

1 minute ago, joc said:

“You can pass on your genes by having one or two children and investing a lot into their well-being. But we know psychopaths’ relationships are impersonal, that they favour the strategy of having a lot of children, and then abandoning them.”

I seriously doubt that anyone has a strategy of such.  That is an utterly ridiiculous statement. 

You're thinking in terms of a conscious strategy rather than evolutionary one. Are there not men that father many children by many different women? Have they not successfully propagated their genetic code?

It seems ridiculous given modern society but it's an evolutionary hangover and so it would.

[I'mConvinced]

2 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

He wasn't the first person to write on psychopathy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Etymology

I didn't say he was, I said he wrote the tests that we still use today. This is just another strawman.

[GoldenWolf]

3 minutes ago, joc said:

“You can pass on your genes by having one or two children and investing a lot into their well-being. But we know psychopaths’ relationships are impersonal, that they favour the strategy of having a lot of children, and then abandoning them.”

I seriously doubt that anyone has a strategy of such.  That is an utterly ridiiculous statement. 

I know someone just like that, he makes babies with as many women as he can and their marital status means nothing to him. He just sees the children as **** trophies, he is a malignant, sexual and reproductive narcissist/psychopath.  The type of person who just keeps repeating the same evils over and over again.

[GoldenWolf]

4 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I didn't say he was, I said he wrote the tests that we still use today. This is just another strawman.

His way of testing is wrong then, that doesn't mean there are no psychopaths.  It is your strawman.

[I'mConvinced]

33 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Hogwash, misdiagnosis are rare

https://capmh.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13034-016-0140-5

Why not read the study and see for yourself. Turns out we are overdiagnosing because the definitions are too blurry and ill-defined.

In fact if you look at the history of the DSM you'll see just how often they have had to change definitions.

[I'mConvinced]

Just now, Mystic Crusader said:

His way of testing is wrong then, that doesn't mean there are no psychopaths.  It is your strawman.

At what point did I say there were no psychopaths? You're just making things up now.

I'm more broadly talking about the treatment of people who don't fit into the 'normal' bracket and using the misunderstanding of psychopathy as an example. Calling them mentally ill if they are not is wrong.

None of this means dangerous or violent psychopaths don't exist, they certainly do, but not all psychopaths are violent or dangerous. This is the hypocrisy in a thread about how to solve the us and them problem, people just want to neatly label everyone and then finger point to them as the problem.

 

 

[I'mConvinced]

10 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

I know someone just like that, he makes babies with as many women as he can and their marital status means nothing to him. He just sees the children as **** trophies, he is a malignant, sexual and reproductive narcissist/psychopath.  The type of person who just keeps repeating the same evils over and over again.

Think of this from a survival of the fittest perspective. He has passed his genes on many, many times but each child has less likelyhood of a 'successful' life without full parental support.

Now consider someone who invests all their time in just one offspring. They are more likely to succeed in  passing their genes on but if that offspring dies then so does their evolutionary branch of DNA. Even if the spray and pray (excuse the analogy) guy loses a few kids it's no big deal from nature's perspective.

Which was the more successful strategy on a basic reproduction level? Who's traits will carry forward?

The issue comes in the formation of ever bigger societies favouring the small family, large community approach. Psychopathic traits can be extremely damaging to a society as a whole (but not in all cases) and it is my guess that we'll discover a reduction in the number of psychopathic people directly correlates to the rise of settled agricultural societies.

[XenoFish]

MC, where exactly does your hatred come from? I find you to be rather misanthrope.

[Duke Wellington]

On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 10:39 AM, LightAngel said:

I need to ask you a question here.

How do you feel when you are close to a psychopath?

Does your instinct tell you that this person is a psychopath?!

My instinct always tells me the truth, but I still need proof to show me that I'm right!

So, I need to see that person do horrible acts just so I can collect my evidence.

But, my instinct is always right, even before I find my proof!

What about you?!?!

Psychopathy and sociopathy are two forms of anti-social personality disorder (ASPD). Currently there's a lot of confusion over the differences between the two because not every country adopts the same criteria. Also not every expert in a country agrees on definitions. With television programs (especially crime tv shows and films), documentaries, and news stories, there are a lot of misconceptions and distortions portrayed as fact or good science when they arent.

Psychopath: They make up 1-2% of the population and their version of ASPD is the result of some quite bad genetics. Bad parenting isn't involved in the development of psychopathy, they are born that way. 

Sociopath: They make up 2-5% of the population and their version of ASPD is the result of some bad genetics combined with being severally abused by their parents. They are born with some of the problems going on in their brains that the psychopath has. But their brain ends up a close mirror of the psychopaths because they dont go through normal psychological development due to the abuse from their abusive parents.

How to spot them? One major problem in their brains is the limbic system. The amygdala (the area of the brain responsible for emotions) has defects in it and with the way its wired into the rest of the limbic system. As a result both the sociopath and psychopath have a limited range of emotions and the ones that they do have they experience differently from normal people. The sociopath has more emotions than a psychopath such as the ability to experience fear but the most important emotion for both of them is boredom. It isn't boredom how normal people know it. Its an emotion which for them drives them up the wall, which they constantly obsess about, and they will do anything to alleviate it. And this brings us onto the primary motivation existing behind most psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour - the need to alleviate their boredom.

In the workplace ASPDs will test everyone to assess them as a source of drama and excitement to alleviate their boredom. The people they settle on as targets usually have something different about them, have strong personalities, have a lot going for them, and are easy to elicit negative emotional reactions out of. Basically, they go after people they think will have a victim mentality which will be easy to press the buttons off. Whenever the target has an angry outburst, a panic attack, cries, or gives some other form of negative emotional reaction, it is drama and excitement for the ASPD. They milk it for everything its worth to generate entertainment so they can alleviate their boredom. They get their claws into the target to totally do their minds in while portraying the target as the toxic personality to everyone else. The game ends when the target moves on from their victim mentality, learns to control their negative emotions, removes themselves from the environment, or gets sacked. Alternatively if the sociopath or psychopath is very skilled then they wont take things as far as to get the target sacked. The reason? If they get sacked then the ASPD loses their ability to milk the target as a source of drama and excitement when they commit suicide. So the ASPD will keep backing off before starting again, gradually destroying the psychology of the target victim.

How to spot and deal with ASPDs? Learn what your weaknesses are because the ASPD will use them to press your buttons. Reach acceptance of your weaknesses. Watch out for people pressing your buttons overly with open abuse or covertly with ambient abuse. The overt ones usually get sacked, the covert ones are those ASPDs able to hold down a job, at least for a few years until enough people have exposed them. Next bore them. Interact with them (instead of avoiding them) but make it as boring an experience for them as possible. When they try to liven things up by being abrasive, antagonistic, abusive, controlling, threatening, etc, then DO NOT GIVE ANY REACTION. Go into the interaction pre-prepared for them to try and elicit a negative emotional reaction out of you, it makes it easy to suppress your emotions. Then just continue interacting with them and being as boring as possible. It will drive them mad and all of this is how to spot and deal with an ASPD. With not means of alleviating the boredom from interacting with you they will seek to avoid you.

Next, one crucial difference between sociopaths and psychopaths is narcissism. Psychopaths are not narcissistic, they just want to destroy you so they can alleviate their boredom. Sociopaths are narcissistic and these makes them even more evil. Not only do they want to destroy you but they will convince themselves in their minds that their behaviour didnt happen, that they were misunderstood, that they are actually the victim, or their is a plot against them. They never ever take responsibility for their actions and its why they cannot be fixed. To experience guilt, remorse, empathy for others, they have to first acknowledge their behaviour is wrong and they cannot do that.

With the narcissism the abuse that made them a sociopath also stopped them forming a stable identity or sense of self. When this happens two extremes of identity are left behind instead - totally perfect or totally defective. This is what a narcissist is, someone who swings back and forth between extremes of identity a bit similar to how a bipolar swings back and forth between happiness and depression. Totally defective causes them extreme psychological distress so they spend quite literally every minute of every day trying to keep the totally perfect identity in place. That means they have to be the best at everything, the centre of attention, at the centre of the universe, always right, always the winner, and be admired by other people. Anything less forces them to confront how their totally perfect identity is fake plunging them back into totally defective. Needing to behave totally morally perfect also belongs in there. The only way to be totally morally perfect is to delude, distort, and deny away what they are doing. Hence why the narcissist, and sociopaths (which contains narcissism due to their parental abuse), have no guilt, remorse, or empathy for others.

The way you do a narcissists mind in (and another way to do a sociopaths mind in) in a way which doesnt provide any drama or excitement and which will make them avoid you or quit their jobs after a while is too..... Be the best you possibly can be at your job, develop a huge ego and constantly talk about yourself and talk yourself up, and be an attention whore. Also point out their flaws and weaknesses at every opportunity (without it sounding like you are bullying them). Be warned, they will get nasty before they quit or avoid you. The immediate reaction is to try and crush you to re-establish their totally perfect identity, they only quit or avoid you once they realise and accept nothing they do will crush you.

Another way of dealing with them is to expose them for that they are - openly label their behaviour so managers can hear. Example `You wouldnt be trying to ambient abuse me there would you?` or `You wouldnt be trying to gaslight me there would you?` etc. Also tell them openly in front of everyone that they are behaving as a narcissist or sociopath.

Edited March 18, 2018 by RabidMongoose

[GoldenWolf]

2 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

At what point did I say there were no psychopaths? You're just making things up now.

I'm more broadly talking about the treatment of people who don't fit into the 'normal' bracket and using the misunderstanding of psychopathy as an example. Calling them mentally ill if they are not is wrong.

None of this means dangerous or violent psychopaths don't exist, they certainly do, but not all psychopaths are violent or dangerous. This is the hypocrisy in a thread about how to solve the us and them problem, people just want to neatly label everyone and then finger point to them as the problem.

 

 

I've been reading this thread since it's beginning. I got the impression (I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one) that you view psychopathy as a virtue. https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/316217-the-us-and-them-mentality/?page=4#comment-6400611

Calling someone who is mentally ill when they aren't is wrong, calling someone who is mentally ill when they are is right.

Psychopaths are a problem and should be labeled as a psychopath.  It is not wise to eliminate the label.

[GoldenWolf]

19 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

MC, where exactly does your hatred come from? I find you to be rather misanthrope.

Abuse by heartless holier than thou might is right psychopaths.

[XenoFish]

9 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Abuse by heartless holier than thou might is right psychopaths.

Then its just a people problem. Not exactly god. As god would just be their excuse. Have you tried letting go of this anger by any chance? 

[I'mConvinced]

29 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

47 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

 

I've been reading this thread since it's beginning. I got the impression (I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one) that you view psychopathy as a virtue.

Maybe someone should have stopped to ask instead of assuming? I'm telling people why it exists and how certain traits are still useful today, hence why psychopathy has survived to this point as an evolutionary mechanism, not a mental illness. There are mentally ill psychopaths and perfectly normal ones.

[LightAngel]

59 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Psychopathy and sociopathy are two forms of anti-social personality disorder (ASPD). Currently there's a lot of confusion over the differences between the two because not every country adopts the same criteria. Also not every expert in a country agrees on definitions. With television programs (especially crime tv shows and films), documentaries, and news stories, there are a lot of misconceptions and distortions portrayed as fact or good science when they arent.

Psychopath: They make up 1-2% of the population and their version of ASPD is the result of some quite bad genetics. Bad parenting isn't involved in the development of psychopathy, they are born that way. 

Sociopath: They make up 2-5% of the population and their version of ASPD is the result of some bad genetics combined with being severally abused by their parents. They are born with some of the problems going on in their brains that the psychopath has. But their brain ends up a close mirror of the psychopaths because they dont go through normal psychological development due to the abuse from their abusive parents.

How to spot them? One major problem in their brains is the limbic system. The amygdala (the area of the brain responsible for emotions) has defects in it and with the way its wired into the rest of the limbic system. As a result both the sociopath and psychopath have a limited range of emotions and the ones that they do have they experience differently from normal people. The sociopath has more emotions than a psychopath such as the ability to experience fear but the most important emotion for both of them is boredom. It isn't boredom how normal people know it. Its an emotion which for them drives them up the wall, which they constantly obsess about, and they will do anything to alleviate it. And this brings us onto the primary motivation existing behind most psychopathic and sociopathic behaviour - the need to alleviate their boredom.

In the workplace ASPDs will test everyone to assess them as a source of drama and excitement to alleviate their boredom. The people they settle on as targets usually have something different about them, have strong personalities, have a lot going for them, and are easy to elicit negative emotional reactions out of. Basically, they go after people they think will have a victim mentality which will be easy to press the buttons off. Whenever the target has an angry outburst, a panic attack, cries, or gives some other form of negative emotional reaction, it is drama and excitement for the ASPD. They milk it for everything its worth to generate entertainment so they can alleviate their boredom. They get their claws into the target to totally do their minds in while portraying the target as the toxic personality to everyone else. The game ends when the target moves on from their victim mentality, learns to control their negative emotions, removes themselves from the environment, or gets sacked. Alternatively if the sociopath or psychopath is very skilled then they wont take things as far as to get the target sacked. The reason? If they get sacked then the ASPD loses their ability to milk the target as a source of drama and excitement when they commit suicide. So the ASPD will keep backing off before starting again, gradually destroying the psychology of the target victim.

How to spot and deal with ASPDs? Learn what your weaknesses are because the ASPD will use them to press your buttons. Reach acceptance of your weaknesses. Watch out for people pressing your buttons overly with open abuse or covertly with ambient abuse. The overt ones usually get sacked, the covert ones are those ASPDs able to hold down a job, at least for a few years until enough people have exposed them. Next bore them. Interact with them (instead of avoiding them) but make it as boring an experience for them as possible. When they try to liven things up by being abrasive, antagonistic, abusive, controlling, threatening, etc, then DO NOT GIVE ANY REACTION. Go into the interaction pre-prepared for them to try and elicit a negative emotional reaction out of you, it makes it easy to suppress your emotions. Then just continue interacting with them and being as boring as possible. It will drive them mad and all of this is how to spot and deal with an ASPD. With not means of alleviating the boredom from interacting with you they will seek to avoid you.

Next, one crucial difference between sociopaths and psychopaths is narcissism. Psychopaths are not narcissistic, they just want to destroy you so they can alleviate their boredom. Sociopaths are narcissistic and these makes them even more evil. Not only do they want to destroy you but they will convince themselves in their minds that their behaviour didnt happen, that they were misunderstood, that they are actually the victim, or their is a plot against them. They never ever take responsibility for their actions and its why they cannot be fixed. To experience guilt, remorse, empathy for others, they have to first acknowledge their behaviour is wrong and they cannot do that.

With the narcissism the abuse that made them a sociopath also stopped them forming a stable identity or sense of self. When this happens two extremes of identity are left behind instead - totally perfect or totally defective. This is what a narcissist is, someone who swings back and forth between extremes of identity a bit similar to how a bipolar swings back and forth between happiness and depression. Totally defective causes them extreme psychological distress so they spend quite literally every minute of every day trying to keep the totally perfect identity in place. That means they have to be the best at everything, the centre of attention, at the centre of the universe, always right, always the winner, and be admired by other people. Anything less forces them to confront how their totally perfect identity is fake plunging them back into totally defective. Needing to behave totally morally perfect also belongs in there. The only way to be totally morally perfect is to delude, distort, and deny away what they are doing. Hence why the narcissist, and sociopaths (which contains narcissism due to their parental abuse), have no guilt, remorse, or empathy for others.

The way you do a narcissists mind in (and another way to do a sociopaths mind in) in a way which doesnt provide any drama or excitement and which will make them avoid you or quit their jobs after a while is too..... Be the best you possibly can be at your job, develop a huge ego and constantly talk about yourself and talk yourself up, and be an attention whore. Also point out their flaws and weaknesses at every opportunity (without it sounding like you are bullying them). Be warned, they will get nasty before they quit or avoid you. The immediate reaction is to try and crush you to re-establish their totally perfect identity, they only quit or avoid you once they realise and accept nothing they do will crush you.

Another way of dealing with them is to expose them for that they are - openly label their behaviour so managers can hear. Example `You wouldnt be trying to ambient abuse me there would you?` or `You wouldnt be trying to gaslight me there would you?` etc. Also tell them openly in front of everyone that they are behaving as a narcissist or sociopath.

 

Thank you again for another very informative post!

I already know a lot about this topic, but we should never stop learning.

And I love reading your post because you just stick to the topic without any personal attack to anyone in the forum.

It really is a pleasure reading your thoughts! 

[Lilly]

This needs to stop right now. Stop the personal remarks and the know it all attitudes. Report that which you feel violates UM rules (PMs can be reported as well). 

Anymore of this will result in thread closure. 

[XenoFish]

Perhaps its a reflection of a persons narcissism is the strength of their spirituality?

[Lilly]

I would refer to UM Rules:

• 3e. Flamebaiting: Do not taunt or bait another member in to an argument.
• 3f. Abusive behaviour: Do not be rude, insulting, offensive, snide, obnoxious or abusive towards other members.
• 6a. Compliance: You agree to co-operate with the requests of our site staff should you be asked to stop doing something that they deem to be disruptive, inappropriate or in violation of the terms of service.
• 6b. Protest: You agree not to attack, harass, bully, defame, threaten or become abusive towards any member of staff either here or through off-site forums, services or media.
• 6c. Appeal: Do not post content designed to complain about, rally support against or to criticise moderator action. If you disagree with action taken by a member of staff you have the option to appeal the decision by PMing a moderator or administrator.

[I'mConvinced]

This thread deserves closing, the dangerous misinformation people have posted should be deleted and forgotten.