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The Us And Them Mentality!


LightAngel

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2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

I would add that someone with psychopathic tendences cannot grasp the idea of cause and effect very well. 

They see something they want, they grab it without seeing the possible consequences of their actions. Psychopaths are not creative people, this I believe is why society has been dumbed down with so much degrading and disgusting influences from those psychos from the top of societies establishments. Inclucing the Church, government, "arts" and pop culture..

Honestly you are full of it.  They understand cause and effect perfectly, they just don't perhaps care as much about the outcome.  

Saying psychopaths are not creative shows, again, your lack of knowledge on this subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201610/are-creative-people-more-likely-be-psychopathic

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According to Galang and his colleagues, there’s a physiological underpinning to all of this. The creative individual, like the psychopath, is less emotionally inhibited than others by the norms of social convention. This disinhibition underlies both bold risk-taking (the creative side of the equation) as well as callousness (the antisocial side). The neurotransmitters responsible for emotional disinhibition involve the dopaminergic system, involved in a desire for novelty and a tendency to seek reward. The psychopath and the creative individual may share an overabundance of dopaminergic activity, making each crave risky, and rewarding, experiences more than is true for the average person. 

This would suggest not only are you wrong in your assessment but it's actually the direct opposite of what you claim.

2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

There is no reason why we cannot have an idealogical approach that still encompasses practicality. After all, everything starts with a thought or at least a feeling. Every practical invention, solution, was first someones idea, it doesnt have to be either practical, or idealogical.

Until you understand more about how the brain works and why then I can't even begin to answer this for you.  No, an ideology isn't going to be enough and it's the reason no ideology, invented so far at least, can or will help us.  You could make a start by looking at why psychopathy isn't actually a mental disorder but an important survival trait.  You could then ask yourself why we, as a society, allow psychopathic individuals to rise to the highest positions of power at all and you might be surprised by the answer.  They make clearer, 'fairer' and less emotionally driven decisions in certain situations where the average person would fall apart or make the 'wrong' choice:

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20171102-do-psychopaths-really-make-better-leaders

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“You need the right kind of personality to enable you to optimally operationalise that skill set," he says." There are some professions which, at times, require higher levels of psychopathic traits than we might be comfortable with in everyday life.”

The problem with psychopathy is that it is a scale and not an either/or.  Someone with mild psychopathic tendencies might actually benefit from them in life while someone at the extreme end will struggle to fit into society at all.  To lump all psychopaths together until one, hideously emotive, term is doing human beings a disservice.  It's akin to saying someone with introvert tendencies is a danger to society as they will not integrate as well as an extrovert...except they are all just measurements on a scale and we all display some of each tendency.

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23 hours ago, joc said:

I watched the video.  I know many psychopaths...and have experienced the behavior of many over the course of my life.  I think we all have.

 

 

 

I need to ask you a question here.

How do you feel when you are close to a psychopath?

Does your instinct tell you that this person is a psychopath?!

My instinct always tells me the truth, but I still need proof to show me that I'm right!

So, I need to see that person do horrible acts just so I can collect my evidence.

But, my instinct is always right, even before I find my proof!

What about you?!?!

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5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

I would add that someone with psychopathic tendences cannot grasp the idea of cause and effect very well. 

They see something they want, they grab it without seeing the possible consequences of their actions. Psychopaths are not creative people, this I believe is why society has been dumbed down with so much degrading and disgusting influences from those psychos from the top of societies establishments. Inclucing the Church, government, "arts" and pop culture..

 

The Church is full of psychopaths that we can agree about :D

 

 

 

 

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And the government too of course.

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Matrix+fighting+violence+1+percent+strat

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3 hours ago, LightAngel said:

But, my instinct is always right, even before I find my proof!

No, well not if you mean intuition when you say instinct.

 

Quote

 

Intuition, fast and non-conscious, is System 1. And, if Kahneman's battery of psychological experiments are to be believed, it often gets it horribly wrong, jumping to conclusions, making logical errors, misunderstanding simple sums and failing to call on System 2 when it needs help. The book contains many examples of System 1's failings. Answer this puzzle without thinking about it:

A bat and ball cost £1.10.

The bat costs £1 more than the ball.

How much does the ball cost?


 

https://www.managementtoday.co.uk/relying-intuition-always-trust-gut-feelings/article/1155928

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giphy.gif

 

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It's kind of funny. Everything from psychopath to narcissist, I think we could all check something off the personality list. If we're honest with ourselves. When I look through a lot of those personality test, I might be a high-functioning sociopath. Then again. Those things are about as accurate as the daily horoscope. 

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40 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's kind of funny. Everything from psychopath to narcissist, I think we could all check something off the personality list. If we're honest with ourselves. When I look through a lot of those personality test, I might be a high-functioning sociopath. Then again. Those things are about as accurate as the daily horoscope. 

At least we can now test for it physically rather than just relying on personality tests. fMRI has been a revolution in terms of understanding the condition.

I would say I have one of the new traits, switching, identified using these techniques. On one level I can be extremely empathic, caring and understanding. In a heartbeat I can turn those emotions off, even while considering the same subject matter. It's a good job too as my emotional side can be extremely overwhelming if let loose.

So is it possible that psychopathy is an evolved trait necessary for survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. Oh and it comes in many forms.

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44 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

At least we can now test for it physically rather than just relying on personality tests. fMRI has been a revolution in terms of understanding the condition.

I would say I have one of the new traits, switching, identified using these techniques. On one level I can be extremely empathic, caring and understanding. In a heartbeat I can turn those emotions off, even while considering the same subject matter. It's a good job too as my emotional side can be extremely overwhelming if let loose.

So is it possible that psychopathy is an evolved trait necessary for survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. Oh and it comes in many forms.

I generally lack emotion unless I actually need to feel things. I'm typically anti-social as in not a people person nor do I like crowds. Like I mentioned before we all have various traits that work for us. 

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13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I generally lack emotion unless I actually need to feel things. I'm typically anti-social as in not a people person nor do I like crowds. Like I mentioned before we all have various traits that work for us. 

It's the wonder of evolution. Each iteration is a genetic dice roll with survival and reproduction the rewards for it coming good. Random in one sense and yet somehow purposeful at the same time.

Every single human trait that has made it to modern times exists because it was once (or still is) part of a viable survival strategy for our continuation as a species.

What nature didn't see coming was a massive and sudden technological explosion from a species that catapulted it forward faster than its biology could keep up. People can like it or not but we're still set up for a tribal hunter/gatherer existence, of a social group size of approximately 150 people, and now we're expected to deal with the wants, needs and opinions of billions. It isn't realistic to expect humanity to change overnight in these regards, it's programmed into our DNA.

This is why I believe science and technology are the only way forward for us. The only way to change fast enough is if we physically do it to ourselves. A dangerous path for sure but better than the alternatives I see playing out otherwise. These squishy bodies just ain't made for space and that's where we're going next.

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9 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

Honestly you are full of it.  They understand cause and effect perfectly, they just don't perhaps care as much about the outcome.  

Saying psychopaths are not creative shows, again, your lack of knowledge on this subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201610/are-creative-people-more-likely-be-psychopathic

This would suggest not only are you wrong in your assessment but it's actually the direct opposite of what you claim.

Until you understand more about how the brain works and why then I can't even begin to answer this for you.  No, an ideology isn't going to be enough and it's the reason no ideology, invented so far at least, can or will help us.  You could make a start by looking at why psychopathy isn't actually a mental disorder but an important survival trait.  You could then ask yourself why we, as a society, allow psychopathic individuals to rise to the highest positions of power at all and you might be surprised by the answer.  They make clearer, 'fairer' and less emotionally driven decisions in certain situations where the average person would fall apart or make the 'wrong' choice:

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20171102-do-psychopaths-really-make-better-leaders

The problem with psychopathy is that it is a scale and not an either/or.  Someone with mild psychopathic tendencies might actually benefit from them in life while someone at the extreme end will struggle to fit into society at all.  To lump all psychopaths together until one, hideously emotive, term is doing human beings a disservice.  It's akin to saying someone with introvert tendencies is a danger to society as they will not integrate as well as an extrovert...except they are all just measurements on a scale and we all display some of each tendency.

You are wrong yet again..

These folks do not understand cause and effect, if they did then they would comprehend that one cause can have many different effects.

I have seen a psychopath take something from someone, and then be totally surprised when the friends of that person showed up. Eg, a psychopath can see one step ahead in the chain of cause and effect, but they fail to see the next two or three steps afterwards. Therefore they DO NOT understand cause and effect.

Can you even comprehend this line of thinking?

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10 hours ago, LightAngel said:

 

I need to ask you a question here.

How do you feel when you are close to a psychopath?

Does your instinct tell you that this person is a psychopath?!

My instinct always tells me the truth, but I still need proof to show me that I'm right!

So, I need to see that person do horrible acts just so I can collect my evidence.

But, my instinct is always right, even before I find my proof!

What about you?!?!

 

I have a pretty good sense of what is normal. I loath being manipulated. And I don't take to  well to flattery either because I always think it's being done for an advantage. Unless  I already have trust with the other person.  I have an instinctual 'knowing' when I am being played or lied to. 

Basically, I feel uncomfortable around some people. I honestly don't think in terms of 'psychopath'....it's  more in terms of whether  someone srikes me as normal or off a bit.   I listen to my gut in such circumstances.  It's  seldom wrong.

 

Edited by joc
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2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I generally lack emotion unless I actually need to feel things. I'm typically anti-social as in not a people person nor do I like crowds. Like I mentioned before we all have various traits that work for us. 

A sociopath and a psychopath lack empathy and compassion. 

 

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Just now, Sherapy said:

A sociopath and a psychopath lack empathy and compassion. 

 

I have both in fine measure. The best way to describe my middle kid is being a psychopathic narcissist. 

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13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I have both in fine measure. The best way to describe my middle kid is being a psychopathic narcissist. 

The lady I was a live in caregiver for was a sociopath, bonafide.

These people are bone chilling. 

They fake that they are normal people. Including volunteer work, But she could only mask (keep up the facade )for a short time.

And they are expert manipulators, their prey typically extroverts or very kind people.

Their calling card grandiose acts of kindness to disarm ones distrust system. 

Always always always trust your own instincts, we have a built in radar if we listen.

The problem is we don’t always listen. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

You are wrong yet again..

These folks do not understand cause and effect, if they did then they would comprehend that one cause can have many different effects.

I have seen a psychopath take something from someone, and then be totally surprised when the friends of that person showed up. Eg, a psychopath can see one step ahead in the chain of cause and effect, but they fail to see the next two or three steps afterwards. Therefore they DO NOT understand cause and effect.

Can you even comprehend this line of thinking?

On the one hand we have scientific study using advanced brain scanning technology and on the other we have your singular anecdote. Which to trust?

So in a way you're correct, I can't comprehend your way of thinking 

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2 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

On the one hand we have scientific study using advanced brain scanning technology and on the other we have your singular anecdote. Which to trust?

So in a way you're correct, I can't comprehend your way of thinking 

Well, we can trust Big Pharma, and all their gadgets, or, we can look, feel, trust our our own feelings..

Do you have the best interests of Humanity at Heart?

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5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The lady I was a live in caregiver for was a sociopath, bonafide.

These people are bone chilling. 

They fake that they are normal people. Including volunteer work, But she could only mask (keep up the facade )for a short time.

And they are expert manipulators, their prey typically extroverts or very kind people.

Their calling card grandiose acts of kindness to disarm ones distrust system. 

Always always always trust your own instincts, we have a built in radar if we listen.

The problem is we don’t always listen. 

 

 

Yes, we should always listen to our instincts so we can protect ourselves, and each other against toxic people.

I love this forum because I feel we are safe in here because the forum is moderated in a very professional way.

And it's important to feel safe when we are online.

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One lesson I learned from an old old monk ...

No one can be fooled if they are not fooling themself

The problem is,

most times when you think you are not fooling yourself,

or can no longer be fooled, you are already well fooled...

~

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Can we all just stop talking in absolutes here for a minute. Sociopath is a term to define extreme psychopathic tendencies. These can be extremely dangerous people. 

Psychopathy on the other hand is a scale of tendencies and most people on the scale will never even realise that they have them. That is because the traits we associated with psychopathy are actually useful to us on an evolutionary scale. It only becomes a problem at the extreme.

It is worth pointing out that someone with extremely high levels of compassion and empathy can also be a problem for society. This tells us the problem is in the extreme ends of the emotional scale and not in the emotions themselves.

The point I guess I'm ultimately making is that we are all people on a scale and not identical items to be neatly labelled and put in a box. Psychopathy is an emotive term that we are beginning to realise isn't a 'mental illness's at all. If you want to lay the world's problems at the feet of psychopaths then fine but that just sounds like an excuse to do nothing to me and is as bad as atheists claiming religion is the root cause of our issues.

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Psychopathy is a designation of a mental health disorder. It is contained in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". Psychologists and psychiatrists use this manual to diagnose psychiatric illnesses. The DSM is published by the American Psychiatric Association and covers all categories of mental health disorders. 

 

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52 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Psychopathy is a designation of a mental health disorder. It is contained in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". Psychologists and psychiatrists use this manual to diagnose psychiatric illnesses. The DSM is published by the American Psychiatric Association and covers all categories of mental health disorders. 

 

And here in lies the problem. These are written without a full understanding and have caused much harm with misdiagnosis being commonplace.

Did nobody bother to read the article I posted from the inventor of the very tests that determine psychopathy? He was admitting to getting it wrong when he classified it as a mental illness and he IS the definition in the DSM.

Oh why do I bother, nobody here can see past the emotive term with enough clarity to actually discuss the issue on any meaningful level.

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Just in case anyone is actually interested in what the inventor of these tests has to say with modern insight:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/psychopathy-may-be-a-result-of-adaptive-evolution-rather-than-a-disorder-says-inventor-of-the-a7025706.html

Quote

 

Speaking to Discover magazine, Hare said: “It’s just as reasonable, and more so in my mind, to interpret psychopathy as a developmental evolutionary thing.

“You can pass on your genes by having one or two children and investing a lot into their well-being. But we know psychopaths’ relationships are impersonal, that they favour the strategy of having a lot of children, and then abandoning them.”

While unpalatable to most people, he argues this method of reproduction means psychopathy should be considered a biological adaptation rather than a neurological disorder.

“From an evolutionary psychology perspective, the structure and functions [of psychopaths’ brains] may be a little different,” Hare added. “But they’re properly designed for engagement in predatory behaviours. They could be genetically programmed, but what trigger mechanisms might set genes off? We don’t know. But we know that environmental factors are also a determinant.”

Hare also believes that psychopaths are capable of responding to therapy programmes and can even use their condition to their advantage in a way that’s productive for the individual and society.

“My view is that psychopaths have the intellectual capacity to know the rules of society and the difference between right and wrong — and they choose which rules to follow or ignore,” he said.

“People will say the behaviour is pure evil, but what does that mean?”

 

This is the very man who developed the tests for the condition admitting that he got it wrong.

If this is true then what right do we have to condemn psychopathy as a mental illness and those with the traits in need of cure? This is what annoys me, when people post outrageous 'how to disengage with psychopaths' comments and the moderation team deems that valid and acceptable when reported.

This is Dr Hare's take:

Quote

Hare also believes that psychopaths are capable of responding to therapy programmes and can even use their condition to their advantage in a way that’s productive for the individual and society.

And this is why we need to stop hating on things we don't fully understand.

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31 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

And here in lies the problem. These are written without a full understanding and have caused much harm with misdiagnosis being commonplace.

Did nobody bother to read the article I posted from the inventor of the very tests that determine psychopathy? He was admitting to getting it wrong when he classified it as a mental illness and he IS the definition in the DSM.

Oh why do I bother, nobody here can see past the emotive term with enough clarity to actually discuss the issue on any meaningful level.

With all due respect, the people who author the DSM are Psychiatrists and Psychologists (with Doctorates) and are highest level of mental health professionals. To say these people aren't correct will entail a very high level of scientific and medical evidence in order to reach a level of refuting the DSM criteria. 

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