Davros of Skaro Posted April 9, 2018 #151 Share Posted April 9, 2018 17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: And exterminated it!! Right? But, of course, I believe you! 17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: How did you know, I had that picturing in my mind, when discussing this!!!???? By the way, could you help me get it out?!?! Do you get H&I (Heroes & Icons TV)? DS9 is on 6 nights a week at 10pm est. Just feel the love of the Pah-wraiths. 17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: *speaks in an adorable and cute way* Okay! In my unprofessional opinion, your specific body chemistry at the time gave you high tolerance to the drug? No you're not a superfreak. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 9, 2018 #152 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) Quote *snip* I do not see Stubz using faith as a pathway to truth. Can you even imagine that the "transformation" you speak of is just a mundane neurological & psychological process with the only outside force is preconceived societal notions? It has it's origins in ignorance of such processes when imaginary beings were blamed for joy, and others for ailments? Can you even let that thought enter your mind? Edited April 9, 2018 by Daughter of the Nine Moons Remove content from quote 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted April 9, 2018 #153 Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Do you get H&I (Heroes & Icons TV)? DS9 is on 6 nights a week at 10pm est. Nah, but I manage to get my DS9 fill!! Quote Just feel the love of the Pah-wraiths. Amen brother!!!! Quote In my unprofessional opinion, your specific body chemistry at the time gave you high tolerance to the drug? And, annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd, I consider that a big possibility! Quote No you're not a superfreak. But, but, but, that was my plan!!! How am I going to take over the world if I aint?!?! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted April 9, 2018 #154 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I wonder, if Jesus, can be viewed in varying point of views, and feel in themselves, that they are right. Yes, I'm talking about a subjective outlook on this point of view. Like me, despite having my own unique belief, I believe he existed. Buuuuuut, I don't think in the manner described in the orthodoxed religions outlook. I feel, like other individuals in are history, (and I think there are some today) none magical individuals whose perseverance, guidance, and compassion, made a difference for the good. And so, I would think many individuals would not approve of how I view Jesus, it can be assured it's my subjective outlook and I would understand their viewpoint of him. (Of course, I see it just as subjective. ) For one person who comes up uninviting to talk about Jesus and say their point of view like it's truth, I think it can come back having someone wishing them to 'be one with the force!' The way I see the OP, I think it boils down to two parts of this thought. The fact that some feel they have to impart him as one hundred percent true fact of the miracle son of God, entity, can be debated. I think it can be debated, because how is it not everyone knows this, and that I, can believe him to be a possibility of existing, but not with the miracles. I think that the one who has been approached uninvited, has the ability to explain the lack of proof right back. I think, a lot of good questions to the possibility can be asked. Bottom line, I think one who approaches to proselytize, opens them self up to be questioned understandingly. The second part, on Jesus, is to me, an ambiguous situation. Did he or did he not exist? For me, I think yeah, for such an ambiguous individual, he seems to me, a inspirational individual. But yet, I feel my life and it's experiences (growing up secular) has this point of view of seeing it in a none religious light. I'm not saying everyone else should, it's just how I see it. Maybe it's because I never read the bible, I don't know if I have all the information of thinking that he's everything that would make in how I see him. But I do, even though I can be corrected by those of how they see him and why from the bible, I can understand the objective outlook of this point of view. I still feel, I have the right to stick to my subjective point of view, because I won't let this thought transfer outside out of me and force it on others. I can understand the differences of religious outlooks of him. But, I really think the individual existed, but his story changed through out time. (Again, my subjective point of view) So, I think here's the thing, I don't think anyone can change their own mind, belief, feelings of the matter, if it's their personal truth. I think Jesus can be reflected personally to each and everyone, and so if their is no belief in his existence period. I think, no matter how someone comes up and says their bit, you will always have your's. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 9, 2018 #155 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: I wonder, if Jesus, can be viewed in varying point of views, and feel in themselves, that they are right. Yes, I'm talking about a subjective outlook on this point of view. Like me, despite having my own unique belief, I believe he existed. Imagination + conviction= An infinity of pov that the individual sees as correct. Quote Buuuuuut, I don't think in the manner described in the orthodoxed religions outlook. I feel, like other individuals in are history, (and I think there are some today) none magical individuals whose perseverance, guidance, and compassion, made a difference for the good. And so, I would think many individuals would not approve of how I view Jesus, it can be assured it's my subjective outlook and I would understand their viewpoint of him. (Of course, I see it just as subjective. ) Wether Jesus lived, or not there's an abundance of myth tacked on, and that's just looking at the very first Gospel written of him. Quote For one person who comes up uninviting to talk about Jesus and say their point of view like it's truth, I think it can come back having someone wishing them to 'be one with the force!' I have no doubt about that. I picture you taking their Bible, and after you're done they do not want it back. Insert cartoon poo picture below. Quote The way I see the OP, I think it boils down to two parts of this thought. The fact that some feel they have to impart him as one hundred percent true fact of the miracle son of God, entity, can be debated. I think it can be debated, because how is it not everyone knows this, and that I, can believe him to be a possibility of existing, but not with the miracles. I think that the one who has been approached uninvited, has the ability to explain the lack of proof right back. I think, a lot of good questions to the possibility can be asked. What it boils down to is; The Bible says so, people believe, lives are changed, and if this is not proof to you then you're lost, sick, or evil. Quote Bottom line, I think one who approaches to proselytize, opens them self up to be questioned understandingly. I deliver them a can of cognitive dissonance. Quote The second part, on Jesus, is to me, an ambiguous situation. Did he or did he not exist? For me, I think yeah, for such an ambiguous individual, he seems to me, a inspirational individual. But yet, I feel my life and it's experiences (growing up secular) has this point of view of seeing it in a none religious light. I'm not saying everyone else should, it's just how I see it. Fiction can be inspirational too. Just look at Star Trek. Quote Maybe it's because I never read the bible, I don't know if I have all the information of thinking that he's everything that would make in how I see him. But I do, even though I can be corrected by those of how they see him and why from the bible, I can understand the objective outlook of this point of view. I still feel, I have the right to stick to my subjective point of view, because I won't let this thought transfer outside out of me and force it on others. I can understand the differences of religious outlooks of him. My basic outlook on Jesus is a "thought form". He came from a place of virtue, put on our destructive passions, died to the passions, and triumphed over the passions. The virtue seeking use this thought as a tool for a healthier life. For example if your sense of site is causing you to sin? Just think of how Jesus trimmed back the passion of site, and imitate him with your mind so not to sin through the sense of site. This goes back to ancient Hellenistic philosophies. The ancients were ignorant of things we take for granted now. Quote But, I really think the individual existed, but his story changed through out time. (Again, my subjective point of view) So, I think here's the thing, I don't think anyone can change their own mind, belief, feelings of the matter, if it's their personal truth. I think Jesus can be reflected personally to each and everyone, and so if their is no belief in his existence period. I think, no matter how someone comes up and says their bit, you will always have your's. I believe him to be entirely myth. It takes a lot of information to show this is likely. People will believe what they want to believe because thoughts are just as addictive as drugs. Also more, or less so for some people. Edited April 9, 2018 by davros of skaro Mew! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted April 9, 2018 #156 Share Posted April 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: 1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: I wonder, if Jesus, can be viewed in varying point of views, and feel in themselves, that they are right. Yes, I'm talking about a subjective outlook on this point of view. Like me, despite having my own unique belief, I believe he existed. Imagination + conviction= An infinity of pov that the individual sees as correct. Yes, yes, I can understand that outlook as well. And, I can see how you would look at it as imagination. And, I reflect, it could well be, that it is imagination. And, I have to consider the possibility, that it might be imagination. Or, I see it as not, but it is. I think my point is, all outlooks are subjective, and the possibility of the opposing being just as correct or not. I think the bottom line, is that all could be seen as very informative if communicated so well. But yeah, on conviction, that does do so much for anyone, can it? Me thinks though, if the conviction is correct. But, that's me! 11 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Buuuuuut, I don't think in the manner described in the orthodoxed religions outlook. I feel, like other individuals in are history, (and I think there are some today) none magical individuals whose perseverance, guidance, and compassion, made a difference for the good. And so, I would think many individuals would not approve of how I view Jesus, it can be assured it's my subjective outlook and I would understand their viewpoint of him. (Of course, I see it just as subjective. ) Wether Jesus lived, or not there's an abundance of myth tacked on, and that's just looking at the very first Gospel written of him. You see, I cannot deny that. And that's probably why I put in my subjective opinionated feeling that, despite all that, if it's subjective, it's subjective. And what you said, is just as important to remember, because that does happen in my boat. 12 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote For one person who comes up uninviting to talk about Jesus and say their point of view like it's truth, I think it can come back having someone wishing them to 'be one with the force!' I have no doubt about that. I picture you taking their Bible, and after you're done they do not want it back. Insert cartoon poo picture below. I think I get what you're saying. What do you think I would do with the bible, before I give it back? And, this is with your reference of a certain type of pic too. Though, I think to further the meaning of my point on that, if it's me, and there is someone's bible, handing it to me, I would give it back. I would respect it, because it's being respected by them, and I respect their belief and point's of views or lack of one. I guess to further explain of someone wishing them to be 'one with the force' would be my belief's tenet of not depending on the bible for material reasons and so forth. The bible is for them, not for me. I could go on further with this, is they want to force me to read the bible and be converted to their religion, I can come back with taking away their bible (because of my belief's rules) and then telling they should convert to mine. I think they need to understand that. The 'I see your attempt of force conversion and raise you a forced conversion of mine with frills'. I think there's a chameleon like behavior with my belief. 18 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote The way I see the OP, I think it boils down to two parts of this thought. The fact that some feel they have to impart him as one hundred percent true fact of the miracle son of God, entity, can be debated. I think it can be debated, because how is it not everyone knows this, and that I, can believe him to be a possibility of existing, but not with the miracles. I think that the one who has been approached uninvited, has the ability to explain the lack of proof right back. I think, a lot of good questions to the possibility can be asked. What it boils down to is; The Bible says so, people believe, lives are changed, and if this is not proof to you then you're lost, sick, or evil. Yes, that happens. My point is, that can be counteracted with the other side's version in just the same manner. I'm thinking, those who proselytize should realize or at least recognize that. 21 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Bottom line, I think one who approaches to proselytize, opens them self up to be questioned understandingly. I deliver them a can of cognitive dissonance. And that's your way. In fact, that's what I'm talking about, I would see that as a natural response. Mostly so in my book, when delivered with cognitive dissonance. 22 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote The second part, on Jesus, is to me, an ambiguous situation. Did he or did he not exist? For me, I think yeah, for such an ambiguous individual, he seems to me, a inspirational individual. But yet, I feel my life and it's experiences (growing up secular) has this point of view of seeing it in a none religious light. I'm not saying everyone else should, it's just how I see it. Fiction can be inspirational too. Just look at Star Trek. Yeah, there is that thought, he's fiction. I'm not pushing that out of the thought process of mine, when I consider him the way I do. And yes, one can find inspiration from what inspires them, I'm all for it. I think it's a universal thought, that if it's not pushed on others, then what harms is that? Wait! Don't answer that! I feel where I'm concerned, I still present my behavior as seeing the world around me, people, and how natural things is first, as a priority. You brought up Star Trek, (and good example too. ) As a fan myself, I enjoy it, I find inspiration from it from time to time, but I'm not dressing up in uniforms (unless it was a birthday gift ((which one was)), and it's a custom for a party Halloween and such, and even then I feel funny about that. ) for conventions, (or as a jury member ) seriously, one maybe a die hard fan, but there is a time and place for everything, and one needs to focus on where they are. ((even though I would never dress like that as a jury member, .... I also ........ oh wait, never mind. ) ) Anyways, I see the one's so deep into their 'ideals' that I sometimes wonder if they see the world around them. And like varying fans of Star Trek, one wonders how deeply inspiring it makes some and why they play that out to others. 30 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Maybe it's because I never read the bible, I don't know if I have all the information of thinking that he's everything that would make in how I see him. But I do, even though I can be corrected by those of how they see him and why from the bible, I can understand the objective outlook of this point of view. I still feel, I have the right to stick to my subjective point of view, because I won't let this thought transfer outside out of me and force it on others. I can understand the differences of religious outlooks of him. My basic outlook on Jesus is a "thought form". He came from a place of virtue, put on our destructive passions, died to the passions, and triumphed over the passions. The virtue seeking use this thought as a tool for a healthier life. For example if your sense of site is causing you to sin? Just think of how Jesus trimmed back the passion of site, and imitate him with your mind so not to sin through the sense of site. This goes back to ancient Hellenistic philosophies. The ancients were ignorant of things we take for granted now. I find this a very interesting thought view. I'm not going to hide from the fact of how there is more of a popular outlook of this, and mine could be in the minority. I am aware of that. I don't know, if this is going to make a point about how some of those, you mentioned, and hope they see the differences. I do feel, that I have my own outlook, and that's that. It's mine. Meanwhile, I sit here, drinking my decaf, (no joking on my decaf coffee please!!!! ................ Oh, alright, you can. ) having interesting debates with you, and realize the things I have to do on a daily basis. 33 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: Quote But, I really think the individual existed, but his story changed through out time. (Again, my subjective point of view) So, I think here's the thing, I don't think anyone can change their own mind, belief, feelings of the matter, if it's their personal truth. I think Jesus can be reflected personally to each and everyone, and so if their is no belief in his existence period. I think, no matter how someone comes up and says their bit, you will always have your's. I believe him to be entirely myth. It takes a lot of information to show this is likely. I think that's cool that you do. And yes, I'm in agreement with you on that there seems to be less information to show that it is likely. That's why, most of the time, my outlook on him is still there, but always a subjective outlook that has it's time and place for something. Quote People will believe what they want to believe because thoughts are just as addictive as drugs. Also more, or less so for some people. Yeah, I agree with that. I feel I do that. I won't deny it. Though, I wonder how thoughts play out in the long run in anything. And how we organize those thoughts. It's how those thoughts are transferred into action, that should be taken seriously, right? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 9, 2018 #157 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: Yes, yes, I can understand that outlook as well. And, I can see how you would look at it as imagination. And, I reflect, it could well be, that it is imagination. And, I have to consider the possibility, that it might be imagination. Or, I see it as not, but it is. I think my point is, all outlooks are subjective, and the possibility of the opposing being just as correct or not. I think the bottom line, is that all could be seen as very informative if communicated so well. But yeah, on conviction, that does do so much for anyone, can it? Me thinks though, if the conviction is correct. But, that's me! I can see if it was true? The son turning to the father saying "He/she knew me on their lips, but not in their hearts", and doing this for many that label themselves Christian. Quote You see, I cannot deny that. And that's probably why I put in my subjective opinionated feeling that, despite all that, if it's subjective, it's subjective. And what you said, is just as important to remember, because that does happen in my boat. Just imagine Jesus being a state of mind. For people to better grasp this idea, a story was fabricated for consumption The story grew as fact, and now you have people whether believing, or secular coming up with their own mind's reflection of Jesus? Quote I think I get what you're saying. What do you think I would do with the bible, before I give it back? And, this is with your reference of a certain type of pic too. So no Youtube video starring you, and a black censor bar in the future? Quote Though, I think to further the meaning of my point on that, if it's me, and there is someone's bible, handing it to me, I would give it back. I would respect it, because it's being respected by them, and I respect their belief and point's of views or lack of one. I guess to further explain of someone wishing them to be 'one with the force' would be my belief's tenet of not depending on the bible for material reasons and so forth. The bible is for them, not for me. I could go on further with this, is they want to force me to read the bible and be converted to their religion, I can come back with taking away their bible (because of my belief's rules) and then telling they should convert to mine. I think they need to understand that. The 'I see your attempt of force conversion and raise you a forced conversion of mine with frills'. I think there's a chameleon like behavior with my belief. A Xtian was telling me all worried about Paganistic symbolism in Christmas. I reminded her that you are not worshipping the symbols, but they are symbols of conversion from what once was. It gave her relief. Imagine being worried about a Christmas tree? Quote Yes, that happens. My point is, that can be counteracted with the other side's version in just the same manner. I'm thinking, those who proselytize should realize or at least recognize that. Heck! You don't recognize that your possessed by a "Doubting Demon" so what the frell do you know? LOL! Just kidding. Those that proselytize tend to be tunnel visioned imho. We are all prone to biases. Quote And that's your way. In fact, that's what I'm talking about, I would see that as a natural response. Mostly so in my book, when delivered with cognitive dissonance. Quote Yeah, there is that thought, he's fiction. I'm not pushing that out of the thought process of mine, when I consider him the way I do. And yes, one can find inspiration from what inspires them, I'm all for it. I think it's a universal thought, that if it's not pushed on others, then what harms is that? It's very pervasive in our society whether one realizes it, or not. But look at the reasoning; What's so great about him? He died for our sins so God can forgive. So the creator of the universe that can forgive, and clean with a wink of an eye needs sacrificial blood atonement for that? It was done out of love. Quote Wait! Don't answer that! Too late. Quote I feel where I'm concerned, I still present my behavior as seeing the world around me, people, and how natural things is first, as a priority. You brought up Star Trek, (and good example too. ) As a fan myself, I enjoy it, I find inspiration from it from time to time, but I'm not dressing up in uniforms (unless it was a birthday gift ((which one was)), and it's a custom for a party Halloween and such, and even then I feel funny about that. ) for conventions, (or as a jury member ) seriously, one maybe a die hard fan, but there is a time and place for everything, and one needs to focus on where they are. ((even though I would never dress like that as a jury member, .... I also ........ oh wait, never mind. ) ) Watch for people dressing up as members of the "Planetary Union". I just might do it? Quote Anyways, I see the one's so deep into their 'ideals' that I sometimes wonder if they see the world around them. And like varying fans of Star Trek, one wonders how deeply inspiring it makes some and why they play that out to others. Knock! Knock! Knock! Have you heard the good news of the Federation of Planets? Quote I find this a very interesting thought view. I'm not going to hide from the fact of how there is more of a popular outlook of this, and mine could be in the minority. I am aware of that. I don't know, if this is going to make a point about how some of those, you mentioned, and hope they see the differences. I do feel, that I have my own outlook, and that's that. It's mine. Meanwhile, I sit here, drinking my decaf, (no joking on my decaf coffee please!!!! ................ Oh, alright, you can. ) having interesting debates with you, and realize the things I have to do on a daily basis. Along with the Hellenistic thought form idea. I believe Jesus to be an unintentional hidden character in the OT that does all the things at the core of what Paul says he does. I will show this in a thread I'm taking my time with. I do not want to make it super long so there's editing issues, and more discoveries after I refresh my mind. Quote I think that's cool that you do. And yes, I'm in agreement with you on that there seems to be less information to show that it is likely. That's why, most of the time, my outlook on him is still there, but always a subjective outlook that has it's time and place for something. Jesus hangs out with sinners. Now is it historical, or a thought form to be used as a tool for a pious life? Quote Yeah, I agree with that. I feel I do that. I won't deny it. Though, I wonder how thoughts play out in the long run in anything. And how we organize those thoughts. It's how those thoughts are transferred into action, that should be taken seriously, right? Right... Edited April 9, 2018 by davros of skaro Mew! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoyoulikeatrain Posted April 10, 2018 #158 Share Posted April 10, 2018 On 4/8/2018 at 6:09 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said: I did not ask you any questions dealing with possession. You asked me. I just checked the last few pages to see, and nope, I didn't ask you, you asked me if my experience was transformation or possession, and I told you not a possession, and that's because it hasn't given me any clue to be one. And that's why I don't believe in it. I didn't have an issue with it. I just originally replied to your post about transformations, and made an opinionated statement about it. I didn't bring up possession, you did. I think you really need to go back these last few pages to find where I had an issue with it, and where I asked you about possession, because I really beginning to get really confused on why you're telling me things that didn't originally pertained in my original post to you. Show me where I asked you about possession. What post? I don't have an issue about something, that in my mind, and the lack of evidence in reality, does not exist. I also didn't judge it, whether it's bad or not, I just said I don't believe in it, and there are many realistic reasons why I don't. Like you know, it's not real. Saying something doesn't exist, is not the same as judging it. You have to have something exist, to judge it. Please, if you really want to continue a conversation with me on this, go over and show I said the things you're saying. That means quoting the post and list the post number. Until then, this is done. The tone of your voice sounded overly defensive and hostile when possession was added in the conversation. You didn't have to ask cos it's a way to separate born again transformation with other experiences including drug induced type. It's not for me to do the work for you cos I know possession exists. The facts are out there. I don't care if you want to stay uninformed. I'm not you keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted April 10, 2018 #159 Share Posted April 10, 2018 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: 9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: Yes, yes, I can understand that outlook as well. And, I can see how you would look at it as imagination. And, I reflect, it could well be, that it is imagination. And, I have to consider the possibility, that it might be imagination. Or, I see it as not, but it is. I think my point is, all outlooks are subjective, and the possibility of the opposing being just as correct or not. I think the bottom line, is that all could be seen as very informative if communicated so well. But yeah, on conviction, that does do so much for anyone, can it? Me thinks though, if the conviction is correct. But, that's me! I can see if it was true? The son turning to the father saying "He/she knew me on their lips, but not in their hearts", and doing this for many that label themselves Christian. I never understood that. I guess, I sometimes do not understand things with convictions. *shrugs* 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote You see, I cannot deny that. And that's probably why I put in my subjective opinionated feeling that, despite all that, if it's subjective, it's subjective. And what you said, is just as important to remember, because that does happen in my boat. Just imagine Jesus being a state of mind. For people to better grasp this idea, a story was fabricated for consumption The story grew as fact, and now you have people whether believing, or secular coming up with their own mind's reflection of Jesus? Well, there you go. It's not one particular version of Christianity, it's many. With their own rules. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote I think I get what you're saying. What do you think I would do with the bible, before I give it back? And, this is with your reference of a certain type of pic too. So no Youtube video starring you, and a black censor bar in the future? Nope, sorry. Though, may I borrow that black censor bar? I could be needing it in the future. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Though, I think to further the meaning of my point on that, if it's me, and there is someone's bible, handing it to me, I would give it back. I would respect it, because it's being respected by them, and I respect their belief and point's of views or lack of one. I guess to further explain of someone wishing them to be 'one with the force' would be my belief's tenet of not depending on the bible for material reasons and so forth. The bible is for them, not for me. I could go on further with this, is they want to force me to read the bible and be converted to their religion, I can come back with taking away their bible (because of my belief's rules) and then telling they should convert to mine. I think they need to understand that. The 'I see your attempt of force conversion and raise you a forced conversion of mine with frills'. I think there's a chameleon like behavior with my belief. A Xtian was telling me all worried about Paganistic symbolism in Christmas. I reminded her that you are not worshipping the symbols, but they are symbols of conversion from what once was. It gave her relief. Imagine being worried about a Christmas tree? That holiday, among others, have been hijacked, who knows where what came from. (Well, the secular me, thanks Prince Albert for the tree though. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Yes, that happens. My point is, that can be counteracted with the other side's version in just the same manner. I'm thinking, those who proselytize should realize or at least recognize that. Heck! You don't recognize that your possessed by a "Doubting Demon" so what the frell do you know? Yes, exactly!! Quote LOL! Just kidding. Those that proselytize tend to be tunnel visioned imho. We are all prone to biases. Yeah, I know. I wish I knew how to derail them from that tunnel. But alas, I guess all learn the hard way. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote And that's your way. In fact, that's what I'm talking about, I would see that as a natural response. Mostly so in my book, when delivered with cognitive dissonance. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Yeah, there is that thought, he's fiction. I'm not pushing that out of the thought process of mine, when I consider him the way I do. And yes, one can find inspiration from what inspires them, I'm all for it. I think it's a universal thought, that if it's not pushed on others, then what harms is that? It's very pervasive in our society whether one realizes it, or not. But look at the reasoning; What's so great about him? He died for our sins so God can forgive. So the creator of the universe that can forgive, and clean with a wink of an eye needs sacrificial blood atonement for that? It was done out of love. One must be careful around here, and reflect on what some considers, 'done out of love'. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Wait! Don't answer that! Too late. Dammit! *grumble grumble* 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote I feel where I'm concerned, I still present my behavior as seeing the world around me, people, and how natural things is first, as a priority. You brought up Star Trek, (and good example too. ) As a fan myself, I enjoy it, I find inspiration from it from time to time, but I'm not dressing up in uniforms (unless it was a birthday gift ((which one was)), and it's a custom for a party Halloween and such, and even then I feel funny about that. ) for conventions, (or as a jury member ) seriously, one maybe a die hard fan, but there is a time and place for everything, and one needs to focus on where they are. ((even though I would never dress like that as a jury member, .... I also ........ oh wait, never mind. ) ) Watch for people dressing up as members of the "Planetary Union". I just might do it? I'll need to see that picture!! 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Anyways, I see the one's so deep into their 'ideals' that I sometimes wonder if they see the world around them. And like varying fans of Star Trek, one wonders how deeply inspiring it makes some and why they play that out to others. Knock! Knock! Knock! Have you heard the good news of the Federation of Planets? Wait! That might be one message, I'm willing to hear!!! But yeah, I get ya! 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote I find this a very interesting thought view. I'm not going to hide from the fact of how there is more of a popular outlook of this, and mine could be in the minority. I am aware of that. I don't know, if this is going to make a point about how some of those, you mentioned, and hope they see the differences. I do feel, that I have my own outlook, and that's that. It's mine. Meanwhile, I sit here, drinking my decaf, (no joking on my decaf coffee please!!!! ................ Oh, alright, you can. ) having interesting debates with you, and realize the things I have to do on a daily basis. Along with the Hellenistic thought form idea. I believe Jesus to be an unintentional hidden character in the OT that does all the things at the core of what Paul says he does. I will show this in a thread I'm taking my time with. I do not want to make it super long so there's editing issues, and more discoveries after I refresh my mind. Ok, then. Looking out for that thread. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote I think that's cool that you do. And yes, I'm in agreement with you on that there seems to be less information to show that it is likely. That's why, most of the time, my outlook on him is still there, but always a subjective outlook that has it's time and place for something. Jesus hangs out with sinners. Now is it historical, or a thought form to be used as a tool for a pious life Good question! Though, should I reflect on that? Yeah, I consider him someone from the past. But that sinning part, that still confuses me. There's no definition in my book. 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Yeah, I agree with that. I feel I do that. I won't deny it. Though, I wonder how thoughts play out in the long run in anything. And how we organize those thoughts. It's how those thoughts are transferred into action, that should be taken seriously, right? Right... Good!! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 10, 2018 #160 Share Posted April 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: I never understood that. I guess, I sometimes do not understand things with convictions. *shrugs* Well, there you go. It's not one particular version of Christianity, it's many. With their own rules. Nope, sorry. Though, may I borrow that black censor bar? I could be needing it in the future. That holiday, among others, have been hijacked, who knows where what came from. (Well, the secular me, thanks Prince Albert for the tree though. Yes, exactly!! Yeah, I know. I wish I knew how to derail them from that tunnel. But alas, I guess all learn the hard way. One must be careful around here, and reflect on what some considers, 'done out of love'. Dammit! *grumble grumble* I'll need to see that picture!! Wait! That might be one message, I'm willing to hear!!! But yeah, I get ya! Ok, then. Looking out for that thread. Good question! Though, should I reflect on that? Yeah, I consider him someone from the past. But that sinning part, that still confuses me. There's no definition in my book. Good!! "One must be careful around here, and reflect on what some considers, 'done out of love' " (Stubbs). I love this, your sentence is profound because what does this imply about the so called creator who would sacrifice a child out of love? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
internetperson Posted April 10, 2018 #161 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Maybe off topic but honestly Jesus didn't have it all that rough, he had 1 day of misery. There are people everywhere going through worse, they don't have super powers and their fathers aren't God. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 10, 2018 #162 Share Posted April 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, internetperson said: Maybe off topic but honestly Jesus didn't have it all that rough, he had 1 day of misery. There are people everywhere going through worse, they don't have super powers and their fathers aren't God. Interesting point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted April 10, 2018 #163 Share Posted April 10, 2018 It's more about the people who wrote the story, created a construct of symbology to exalt, explain, record and pass on the saga of a beloved teacher who met an untimely death at the hands of authority and attained an immortality in belief unlike any other. What kind of God sacrifices himself for the sake of such? "I and the Father are one." It is, indeed, perplexing symbology. What did it's authors mean? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passedfromdeathtolife Posted April 10, 2018 #164 Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) Psiseeker, It’s pretty clear that who ever taught you about Jesus early on gave you a flimsy example of who he is (As is the case with most people, even those growing up in Christianity). Jesus is God. The nature of God is pluralistic or Triune and has been reveal that way throughout the Scriptures of Judaism ( Tanakh/Old Testament and in the New Testament ). 26 And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: Genesis 1:26 ( you find in the Dead seas scrolls dated 200bc includes this pluralistic verse that God uses to describe him. So how can God be three in 1 you might be thinking? Well when God said we are made in his image that doesn’t mean we look like him, it means our make up is like his.. we are mind, body soul right? 3 in 1,So too is God who made us; Father ( Mind/Actions) Son ( Body/physical manifestation that carries out the thoughts) Holy Spirit ( Soul/God’s Spirit) Once you understand that you can understand Jesus better. He claimed while he was on this Earth not simply to be a messager of God but being God himself to reconcile Mankind’s sin ( evil actions) by suffering the punishment that mankind deserves which is death. God did this because he loves us and wants us to know he loves us so much he would live a humble sinless life serving others, always knowing the pain he would endure and voluntarily dying for us. Okay so why is Jesus coming back to judge? well at the moment the ruler of this world is Satan, Jesus will come back to rid the world of evil that also includes evil people and death. Why hasn’t he done it already? To give people the chance to accept God’s Salvation that is freely offered. Jesus wants no one to perish but to enter heaven and have eternal life. God will not force us to accept him, however rejection of God is rejection of all that is Good and that means choosing Hell. Edited April 10, 2018 by Passedfromdeathtolife 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightAngel Posted April 10, 2018 #165 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Is pity a strength or weakness in your eyes?! For me it can be both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 10, 2018 #166 Share Posted April 10, 2018 9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: I never understood that. I guess, I sometimes do not understand things with convictions. *shrugs* Yes you do. You probably experience your own way of focus? Quote Well, there you go. It's not one particular version of Christianity, it's many. With their own rules. Well now it is. There could have been an historical though? Someone that knew God's word? Photographic memory of scripture? Then just maybe it's really a matter of a leap of faith? Quote That holiday, among others, have been hijacked, who knows where what came from. (Well, the secular me, thanks Prince Albert for the tree though. Greetings Saturnalia, and March of the Wooden Soldiers night, and blessings. Quote Yes, exactly!! Quote Yeah, I know. I wish I knew how to derail them from that tunnel. But alas, I guess all learn the hard way. Quote One must be careful around here, and reflect on what some considers, 'done out of love'. I will reflect on that later. Quote I'll need to see that picture!! If I ever do? A pic will be on UM. Quote Wait! That might be one message, I'm willing to hear!!! But yeah, I get ya! Quote Ok, then. Looking out for that thread. Good question! Though, should I reflect on that? Yeah, I consider him someone from the past. But that sinning part, that still confuses me. There's no definition in my book. Good!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 10, 2018 #167 Share Posted April 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Passedfromdeathtolife said: Once you understand that you can understand Jesus better. What if the very act of believing makes what you want to believe make total sense? The perceived "understanding" is an illusion induced by the mind? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted April 10, 2018 #168 Share Posted April 10, 2018 5 hours ago, internetperson said: Maybe off topic but honestly Jesus didn't have it all that rough, he had 1 day of misery. There are people everywhere going through worse, they don't have super powers and their fathers aren't God. A weekend at Bernie's is not much of a sacrifice. I say instead Jesus gives up his sundays, and visit a different region in the world at random. People go nuts over a papal visit as it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted April 10, 2018 #169 Share Posted April 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Sherapy said: "One must be careful around here, and reflect on what some considers, 'done out of love' " (Stubbs). I love this, your sentence is profound because what does this imply about the so called creator who would sacrifice a child out of love? Yeah, I feel there is an universal thought when I replied with this post to Davros. Though, there are 'certain' situations I have been thinking of, when replying, but yes I feel there is some reflection to what you pointed out here. And yes, I often feel this, and that is the main reflection on my part, when I replied to Davros on that point. It often irks me, when I hear the term, 'It's for your own good'. Really?! And how is it, the owner of that saying, knows whats for my own good? Are they in the position to know and say? So, I'm thinking, what is love to each person, and how does that come out of that love? I have seen various posts from some here that point that out. Jesus was sacrificed. I often feel horrible on that. Sacrificing their child for something. It's something a true loving parent is conflicted with. I can see where it a grown child has sacrificed their own lives to save others, and comes out as a posthumous hero. This might be a small comfort to the parents, but in the end, you love and miss and still care for that child. But that's me, and probably why, in some part, I think and say that. I think, in the end, I feel a profound feeling on this. 8 hours ago, internetperson said: Maybe off topic but honestly Jesus didn't have it all that rough, he had 1 day of misery. There are people everywhere going through worse, they don't have super powers and their fathers aren't God. You know, on some level, yeah, he had connections and felt someone had his back. Though, for me, to have nails through my extremities and be consciously about that, well..................... I feel that is some intense pain to live through. 7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said: It's more about the people who wrote the story, created a construct of symbology to exalt, explain, record and pass on the saga of a beloved teacher who met an untimely death at the hands of authority and attained an immortality in belief unlike any other. What kind of God sacrifices himself for the sake of such? "I and the Father are one." It is, indeed, perplexing symbology. What did it's authors mean? For me, I consider that a good question. 6 hours ago, Passedfromdeathtolife said: Psiseeker, It’s pretty clear that who ever taught you about Jesus early on gave you a flimsy example of who he is (As is the case with most people, even those growing up in Christianity). Jesus is God. The nature of God is pluralistic or Triune and has been reveal that way throughout the Scriptures of Judaism ( Tanakh/Old Testament and in the New Testament ). 26 And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: Genesis 1:26 ( you find in the Dead seas scrolls dated 200bc includes this pluralistic verse that God uses to describe him. So how can God be three in 1 you might be thinking? Well when God said we are made in his image that doesn’t mean we look like him, it means our make up is like his.. we are mind, body soul right? 3 in 1,So too is God who made us; Father ( Mind/Actions) Son ( Body/physical manifestation that carries out the thoughts) Holy Spirit ( Soul/God’s Spirit) Once you understand that you can understand Jesus better. He claimed while he was on this Earth not simply to be a messager of God but being God himself to reconcile Mankind’s sin ( evil actions) by suffering the punishment that mankind deserves which is death. God did this because he loves us and wants us to know he loves us so much he would live a humble sinless life serving others, always knowing the pain he would endure and voluntarily dying for us. Okay so why is Jesus coming back to judge? well at the moment the ruler of this world is Satan, Jesus will come back to rid the world of evil that also includes evil people and death. Why hasn’t he done it already? To give people the chance to accept God’s Salvation that is freely offered. Jesus wants no one to perish but to enter heaven and have eternal life. God will not force us to accept him, however rejection of God is rejection of all that is Good and that means choosing Hell. Makes me wonder how the OP will digest this bit. I'm not knocking it, I think you're answering or responding to what this thread is about. I'm just curious. Now, I consider what I bolded, of what you say about the OP being incorrectly taught about Jesus. If that is the case, did the lady who approached him, is correct and had a right to do so? For me, and I could be wrong, but I got the sense, (from the OP's words) that the lady and what she said, bothered him. Again, I could be wrong. 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: 12 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: I never understood that. I guess, I sometimes do not understand things with convictions. *shrugs* Yes you do. You probably experience your own way of focus? Well, that awoke me!!! Good point! 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Well, there you go. It's not one particular version of Christianity, it's many. With their own rules. Well now it is. There could have been an historical though? Someone that knew God's word? Photographic memory of scripture? Then just maybe it's really a matter of a leap of faith? Well, I figure both were the ingredients in this religion soup that I think exists today. *shrugs* 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote That holiday, among others, have been hijacked, who knows where what came from. (Well, the secular me, thanks Prince Albert for the tree though. Greetings Saturnalia, and March of the Wooden Soldiers night, and blessings. *Sweet happy nostalgic sigh* Bout time someone wished me that!!! Sweet thankfuls to ya!! 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Yes, exactly!! Quote Yeah, I know. I wish I knew how to derail them from that tunnel. But alas, I guess all learn the hard way. Got ya! 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote One must be careful around here, and reflect on what some considers, 'done out of love'. I will reflect on that later. Cool! 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote I'll need to see that picture!! If I ever do? A pic will be on UM. Double cool! 2 hours ago, davros of skaro said: Quote Wait! That might be one message, I'm willing to hear!!! But yeah, I get ya! Quote Ok, then. Looking out for that thread. Good question! Though, should I reflect on that? Yeah, I consider him someone from the past. But that sinning part, that still confuses me. There's no definition in my book. Good!! Keep spreading the warmth, my friend! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted April 10, 2018 #170 Share Posted April 10, 2018 6 hours ago, davros of skaro said: A weekend at Bernie's is not much of a sacrifice. I say instead Jesus gives up his sundays, and visit a different region in the world at random. People go nuts over a papal visit as it is. Sabbath, not Sol Invictus ... ~ 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8th_wall Posted April 28, 2018 Author #171 Share Posted April 28, 2018 On 4/10/2018 at 12:40 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said: I wonder, if Jesus, can be viewed in varying point of views, and feel in themselves, that they are right. Yes, I'm talking about a subjective outlook on this point of view. Like me, despite having my own unique belief, I believe he existed. Buuuuuut, I don't think in the manner described in the orthodoxed religions outlook. I feel, like other individuals in are history, (and I think there are some today) none magical individuals whose perseverance, guidance, and compassion, made a difference for the good. And so, I would think many individuals would not approve of how I view Jesus, it can be assured it's my subjective outlook and I would understand their viewpoint of him. (Of course, I see it just as subjective. ) For one person who comes up uninviting to talk about Jesus and say their point of view like it's truth, I think it can come back having someone wishing them to 'be one with the force!' The way I see the OP, I think it boils down to two parts of this thought. The fact that some feel they have to impart him as one hundred percent true fact of the miracle son of God, entity, can be debated. I think it can be debated, because how is it not everyone knows this, and that I, can believe him to be a possibility of existing, but not with the miracles. I think that the one who has been approached uninvited, has the ability to explain the lack of proof right back. I think, a lot of good questions to the possibility can be asked. Bottom line, I think one who approaches to proselytize, opens them self up to be questioned understandingly. The second part, on Jesus, is to me, an ambiguous situation. Did he or did he not exist? For me, I think yeah, for such an ambiguous individual, he seems to me, a inspirational individual. But yet, I feel my life and it's experiences (growing up secular) has this point of view of seeing it in a none religious light. I'm not saying everyone else should, it's just how I see it. Maybe it's because I never read the bible, I don't know if I have all the information of thinking that he's everything that would make in how I see him. But I do, even though I can be corrected by those of how they see him and why from the bible, I can understand the objective outlook of this point of view. I still feel, I have the right to stick to my subjective point of view, because I won't let this thought transfer outside out of me and force it on others. I can understand the differences of religious outlooks of him. But, I really think the individual existed, but his story changed through out time. (Again, my subjective point of view) So, I think here's the thing, I don't think anyone can change their own mind, belief, feelings of the matter, if it's their personal truth. I think Jesus can be reflected personally to each and everyone, and so if their is no belief in his existence period. I think, no matter how someone comes up and says their bit, you will always have your's. On 4/10/2018 at 5:47 PM, Passedfromdeathtolife said: Psiseeker, It’s pretty clear that who ever taught you about Jesus early on gave you a flimsy example of who he is (As is the case with most people, even those growing up in Christianity). Jesus is God. The nature of God is pluralistic or Triune and has been reveal that way throughout the Scriptures of Judaism ( Tanakh/Old Testament and in the New Testament ). 26 And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: Genesis 1:26 ( you find in the Dead seas scrolls dated 200bc includes this pluralistic verse that God uses to describe him. So how can God be three in 1 you might be thinking? Well when God said we are made in his image that doesn’t mean we look like him, it means our make up is like his.. we are mind, body soul right? 3 in 1,So too is God who made us; Father ( Mind/Actions) Son ( Body/physical manifestation that carries out the thoughts) Holy Spirit ( Soul/God’s Spirit) Once you understand that you can understand Jesus better. He claimed while he was on this Earth not simply to be a messager of God but being God himself to reconcile Mankind’s sin ( evil actions) by suffering the punishment that mankind deserves which is death. God did this because he loves us and wants us to know he loves us so much he would live a humble sinless life serving others, always knowing the pain he would endure and voluntarily dying for us. Okay so why is Jesus coming back to judge? well at the moment the ruler of this world is Satan, Jesus will come back to rid the world of evil that also includes evil people and death. Why hasn’t he done it already? To give people the chance to accept God’s Salvation that is freely offered. Jesus wants no one to perish but to enter heaven and have eternal life. God will not force us to accept him, however rejection of God is rejection of all that is Good and that means choosing Hell. Jesus as God... I'm aware of that, have been... In my head they're two separate things... Though I have considered the "God" I have interacted with as not being that... It would make a lot more sense I guess... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coil Posted April 30, 2018 #172 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Question: "If Jesus was God, why did He say "The Father is greater than I" in John 14:28?" https://www.gotquestions.org/Father-greater-I.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted May 1, 2018 #173 Share Posted May 1, 2018 On 4/30/2018 at 8:31 AM, Coil said: Question: "If Jesus was God, why did He say "The Father is greater than I" in John 14:28?" https://www.gotquestions.org/Father-greater-I.html Christians have been disagreeing on this point for thousands of years. What makes you think that your theory is any less baseless than any of the others? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coil Posted May 8, 2018 #174 Share Posted May 8, 2018 On 02.05.2018 at 1:36 AM, Podo said: Christians have been disagreeing on this point for thousands of years. What makes you think that your theory is any less baseless than any of the others? And what causes a contradiction? The Trinity is one and God manifests in the Son. Naturally, living beings are not God-Absolute but they can rise in spirit and express the will of the Father and speak no longer of themselves but a complete deification of the person. Human consciousness must be completely replaced by the Divine, then God himself will be walk on the ground. God is not only an infinite and formless consciousness but also a Divine Person in every living being and if a person knows himself he will find this Person because it is the individual and plural expression of God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted May 8, 2018 #175 Share Posted May 8, 2018 7 hours ago, Coil said: And what causes a contradiction? The Trinity is one and God manifests in the Son. Naturally, living beings are not God-Absolute but they can rise in spirit and express the will of the Father and speak no longer of themselves but a complete deification of the person. Human consciousness must be completely replaced by the Divine, then God himself will be walk on the ground. God is not only an infinite and formless consciousness but also a Divine Person in every living being and if a person knows himself he will find this Person because it is the individual and plural expression of God. So says you. Literally billions of Christians will disagree. This is my point. None of you are arguing from anything resembling a defendable or provable position. You're basically doing the theistic equivalent of arguing which superhero would beat who in a fight. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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