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Aquila King

Democratic Socialism

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MiskatonicGrad
10 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

No, not by itself. Other posters had it right when they stated we need a blending of all the good ideas from different tenets and turf out the bad ones. All you want is decay and stagnation. Thats what conservatism is. Again, read a few books and educate yourself.

Hank

Actually when we have a more conservative government we the people tend to flourish. When the government backs off and there is money to be made we tend to go out and make it. Now you people think you can use that prosperity to take care of those who won't take care of themselves. So you think socialism will help the laziest into being productive members of society. But all it does is drains resources and rewards nonmotivation.

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and then
43 minutes ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Actually when we have a more conservative government we the people tend to flourish. When the government backs off and there is money to be made we tend to go out and make it. Now you people think you can use that prosperity to take care of those who won't take care of themselves. So you think socialism will help the laziest into being productive members of society. But all it does is drains resources and rewards nonmotivation.

^PRECISELY!  It has failed every time it's been tried and the arrogance of each generation is that "they" can make it work.  The dishonesty is palpable.  They aren't even as honest as REAL Socialists because they don't want to take responsibility - through the government - for actually operating industries - so that there is wealth to be redistributed.  They want to force private industry to follow endless regulations, STILL make a profit, but have that profit surrendered to the government that did NOTHING to help earn it.  

It shows a fundamental disconnect and misunderstanding of how capitalism uses an incentive to motivate and bring out the best from the best to create wealth.  Taxation is a necessary evil but those who expect to dictate to industry how much they are allowed to earn are so clueless that they're beyond help.  THAT is a description of the reality of "Democratic Socialism"  It's a guaranteed way to make America a third rate country, in short order.  

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Likely Guy
2 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Okay how about Hitler. No matter how you slice it Democratic Socialists are bad news. Socialism in any form goes against human nature same with communism. We are not wired to work that way. Now I could go on some long dissertation about how it doesn't work but I will let history speak for itself. Socialism looks good on paper but in practice ends with a really large body count and a population using 50 year old technology trying to scrape by with whatever crumbs fall off the parties table.

Hitler = Socialism.

Go back two spaces,

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acidhead

Just curious...

What would a Democratic Socialist style government look like?

Could a proponent of this style of government lay it out on paper? What is State owned and what is not etc...

It can be as simple or as long as you wish.  

I'm just curious if a Democratic Socialist individual can provide exactly what their style of government would look like.

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Hankenhunter
2 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Actually when we have a more conservative government we the people tend to flourish. When the government backs off and there is money to be made we tend to go out and make it. Now you people think you can use that prosperity to take care of those who won't take care of themselves. So you think socialism will help the laziest into being productive members of society. But all it does is drains resources and rewards nonmotivation.

No you didn't. You flourished because people of like minds who who were of above average intelligence were driven out for their ideas and questions. Called heretics and demons. These are the people who formed cities. Cities are where the industrial revolutions started. Where people came to cities to express  themselves and build upon their ideas without being ostrasized. Without cities, you would still be living in backwoods hamlets and towns surrounded blissfully by your ignorance. Even the churches in these towns were socialist. Giving freely to the poor. Isn't that why you toss money in the basket at church? That's socialism. The root word of socialism  is social. People getting together. Conservatism is stagnation and isolation. Again, read some literature and educate yourself.

Hank

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Hankenhunter
23 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Just curious...

What would a Democratic Socialist style government look like?

Could a proponent of this style of government lay it out on paper? What is State owned and what is not etc...

It can be as simple or as long as you wish.  

I'm just curious if a Democratic Socialist individual can provide exactly what their style of government would look like.

It's called Canada. You might have heard about it. But then again, maybe not.

Hank

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Likely Guy
7 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

It's called Canada. You might have heard about it. But then again, maybe not.

Hank

Since we're all from the same province, that was a 'zinger'.

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Hankenhunter
8 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

Since we're all from the same province, that was a 'zinger'.

That he even asked the question blew my mind. Could Victoria be any more socialist than it already is?

Hank

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RavenHawk

Socialist democracies are just another flavor of Oligarchy.  Of Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism.  No matter how noble one version sounds over another, it still requires someone to decide who gets what usually at the cost of someone else's rights.  It is still based on human nature.  The political spectrum is not Left vs Right.  They are all the same.  Sure, there are vastly different academic differences but where it counts, protecting the rights of the individual, they are all the same.  That's what makes all the difference with a ConstitutionalRepublic, where the law limits the power of the government over the people.  It doesn't try to "fix" human nature.  It doesn't try social engineering.  The political spectrum has 0% government at one end and 100% government at the other.  No matter where a government starts on the spectrum, its tendency is to lean toward the 100% end.  And in time, that’s where it ends up.

 

That definition of Democratic Socialist is the typical Capitalist-envy or Capitalist Derangement Syndrome.  Capitalism is not a fuzzy little puppy.  It’s crude and raw.  It requires people to be mature to properly wield it and fully benefit from it.  It requires individualism.  It requires understanding human nature.  What I love is the statement “…seeks to restrain the self-destructive excesses of capitalism…” and this is viewed from the form of government that is most destructive of the human condition.  Granted, Socialism is what built the greatest empires of the world but that is in the past.  It is history.  With the onset of the Age of Enlightenment brought on the end of slavery, it also brought the end of Socialism.  Marx-Engels was just the last hurrah.  Obama was trying to keep it alive and people saw what was going down.

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AnchorSteam
9 hours ago, Aquila King said:

I've heard over and over again people calling me a Communist or whatever for being a Democratic Socialist, so it seems that most people don't even know what Democratic Socialism even is. That, or they knowingly use 'Communist' as a hateful slur.

Either way, I found this little info pic a good explanation of it so I thought I'd share:

29025607_583278642056926_884597132781997

Define "run Democratically", and how this differs from what the USA does already.

... oh, besides the fact that 99% of everything in the Federal Govt is run by unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats. THAT sure could use a change, eh?

 

Trump has convinced them to stop exporting jobs and bring whole Corp HQs and all their money back to the US, you guys give him any credit for that?

 

Pollution is now defined as what we exhale, CO2 is needed for plant life and the stated goal of the Enviro-mental cases is to reduce it as much as they can. They also want to smash damns that promote the local environment and lots of other stupid and insane crap that only makes sense to people who think only on an emotional level. Care to get a handle on that crew?

 

I am in a Union, they are try8ing to tell us that they own us for life, we can never get free of them no matter how many times we try to vote them out. They also use our dues to promote Political candidates and agendas that most of us hate.  How is that "democratic"?

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Likely Guy
5 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

That he even asked the question blew my mind. Could Victoria be any more socialist than it already is?

Hank

I can't speak from experience.

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Likely Guy
6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

That definition of Democratic Socialist is the typical Capitalist-envy or Capitalist Derangement Syndrome.

...and that's where you lost me. :)

 

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Aquila King
2 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Government control of anything doesn't work long term. Believe it or not politicians are usually no smarter or better than you and me in some cases less so. I really don't want me or you deciding what is best for 300 million people. So personally the least amount of government control the better.

This is the fundamental difference in the mindset of progressives and conservatives. Conservatives view government control of the people as inherently bad, whereas progressives view corporate control of the people as inherently bad.

Less government control means more control by the corporations (i.e. Capitalism). Somebody's gotta take control, otherwise you have total anarchy. Corporations serve only their best interests so as to boost profits, nothing more. If boosting profits means screwing over the little guy and stealing your rights (which it often does), then they'll do it in a heartbeat. That's just how the money making machine works. Under a democratic government, the government is supposed to be of, by, and for the people, which means the common man is the one in control. If the government is corrupt, then the common man can vote the corrupt politicians out of office and replace them with someone who will properly represent them. That's how democracy works. It's essentially like one big labor union but in regards to everything. The goal of a democracy is to give power to the people, and out of the hands of special interests.

Your fear of a corrupt government is not completely unwarranted, as there are undoubtedly corrupt forms of government out there whose sole political motivations are to benefit the elites at the expense of the common man. However not all forms of government are inherently meant to work like that. Corporations on the other hand are a different story. Their entire goal and singular motivation is to increase profits. Any charitable work ever done by a corporation is done solely to increase the public's opinion of them, and thereby increase profits, and they are by no means motivated to help out the common man improve their lives since to do so more often then not hurts their bottom line. With corporations in power, you're absolutely guaranteed corruption will take place.

Your insistence on unchecked capitalism and less government control is the one thing that's guaranteed to bring about the very corruption you so desperately fear.

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acidhead
24 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

It's called Canada. You might have heard about it. But then again, maybe not.

Hank

Canada, by definition in the OP,  is not a Democratic Socialist country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism

 
Not to be confused with social democracy.

Democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production[1] with an emphasis on self-management or democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist or decentralized socialist planned economy.[2] Democratic socialists hold that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realization of a socialist society. Democratic socialism can be supportive of either revolutionary or reformist politics as a means to establish socialism.[3]

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Likely Guy
6 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Canada, by definition in the OP,  is not a Democratic Socialist country.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism

 
Not to be confused with social democracy.

Democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production[1] with an emphasis on self-management or democratic management of economic institutions within a market socialist or decentralized socialist planned economy.[2] Democratic socialists hold that capitalism is inherently incompatible with the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and that these ideals can only be achieved through the realization of a socialist society. Democratic socialism can be supportive of either revolutionary or reformist politics as a means to establish socialism.[3]

Nice parsing.

Edit: Though it might remain closer to the truth to say, 'we're a democratic country with socialistic tendencies'.

I don't need a link for that statement.

Edited by Likely Guy

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Aquila King
8 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Define "run Democratically", and how this differs from what the USA does already.

Meaning that the politicians in Washington should vote based on the will of the everyday people they supposedly represent, not their big money donors that legally bribed them with campaign contributions for political favors that best serve them and not us.

Anyway, the rest of your post I cut out cause it's just nonsensical rantings about this and that that I don't really care about.

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Aquila King
34 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

It's called Canada. You might have heard about it. But then again, maybe not.

Hank

How outrageous to suggest we be like Canada, eh? :rolleyes:

I mean, they're a socialist country and been that way for decades, yet their economy's aboot to crash from it any day now!

*cough cough not cough*

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Aquila King
23 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Socialist democracies are just another flavor of Oligarchy.  Of Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism.  No matter how noble one version sounds over another, it still requires someone to decide who gets what usually at the cost of someone else's rights.  It is still based on human nature.  The political spectrum is not Left vs Right.  They are all the same.  Sure, there are vastly different academic differences but where it counts, protecting the rights of the individual, they are all the same.  That's what makes all the difference with a ConstitutionalRepublic, where the law limits the power of the government over the people.  It doesn't try to "fix" human nature.  It doesn't try social engineering.  The political spectrum has 0% government at one end and 100% government at the other.  No matter where a government starts on the spectrum, its tendency is to lean toward the 100% end.  And in time, that’s where it ends up.

That definition of Democratic Socialist is the typical Capitalist-envy or Capitalist Derangement Syndrome.  Capitalism is not a fuzzy little puppy.  It’s crude and raw.  It requires people to be mature to properly wield it and fully benefit from it.  It requires individualism.  It requires understanding human nature.  What I love is the statement “…seeks to restrain the self-destructive excesses of capitalism…” and this is viewed from the form of government that is most destructive of the human condition.  Granted, Socialism is what built the greatest empires of the world but that is in the past.  It is history.  With the onset of the Age of Enlightenment brought on the end of slavery, it also brought the end of Socialism.  Marx-Engels was just the last hurrah.  Obama was trying to keep it alive and people saw what was going down.

Since literally every sentence you just made is utter nonsense, I'll keep my response simple:

tenor.gif?itemid=5469012

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Hankenhunter
5 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

How outrageous to suggest we be like Canada, eh? :rolleyes:

I mean, they're a socialist country and been that way for decades, yet their economy's aboot to crash from it any day now!

*cough cough not cough*

Well, considering he's from Victoria.... It just seem disingenuous to ask that question. You don't get anymore socialist than Victoria.

Hank

 

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Likely Guy
5 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

How outrageous to suggest we be like Canada, eh? :rolleyes:

I mean, they're a socialist country and been that way for decades, yet their economy's aboot to crash from it any day now!

*cough cough not cough*

You missed a few stereotypes there.

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Hankenhunter
6 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Since literally every sentence you just made is utter nonsense, I'll keep my response simple:

tenor.gif?itemid=5469012

Wish he would have said that on live tv to Ken Hamm. Hmmm, let's put some dinosaurs on the Ark, they'll fit right in. 

Hank

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acidhead
25 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

That he even asked the question blew my mind. Could Victoria be any more socialist than it already is?

Hank

Victoria is the capital of British Columbia, for those who don't know.

Yeah, I live here, and have done business here for almost 20 years installing hardwood floors.

It's a government employee city.

Government employees are not unlike the average individual... We all want a deal.

Government employees are among the first to ask for a cash deal whenever I give a quote on a job.

I never agree.  They can pay full price.

Only family and friends get favours.

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Likely Guy
2 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Victoria is the capital of British Columbia, for those who don't know.

Yeah, I live here, and have done business here for almost 20 years installing hardwood floors.

It's a government employee city.

Government employees are not unlike the average individual... We all want a deal.

Government employees are among the first to ask for a cash deal whenever I give a quote on a job.

I never agree.  They can pay full price.

Only family and friends get favours.

Can't argue with that, can you give me a deal, even though I live in the interior?

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AnchorSteam
35 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Meaning that the politicians in Washington should vote based on the will of the everyday people they supposedly represent, not their big money donors that legally bribed them with campaign contributions for political favors that best serve them and not us.

Hey, if you want to get rid of K Street and all the crap that goes along with it, force the Lobbyists underground, I'd be right there with you

But instead, you have to go and say  -

Quote

Anyway, the rest of your post I cut out cause it's just nonsensical rantings about this and that that I don't really care about.

And so I have to say just two things-

1 - "Unregulated Capitalism"  does not exist, only in the minds of fanatical Marxists could such a thing possibly exist in the here and now, in the world we live in, in REALITY.

2 - 

 

Edited by AnchorSteam
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Montmorency the Dog
4 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

...and that's where you lost me. :)

 

I love Ravenhawk's posts whenever anyone gets onto the subject of Commieness. They're a kind of stream of consciousness that will lead us to who knows where. 

Edited by Vlad the Mighty
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