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Aquila King

Democratic Socialism

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preacherman76

Democratic socialism means folks like myself who climbed out of poverty get to go back in the hole. It means I get to have half my check stolen by government, while being told to shut up and check my privilege while I move back to the trailer park. 

Forget you and your socialism. You are a thief if you support it. 

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Dumbledore the Awesome
4 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Socialist democracies are just another flavor of Oligarchy.  Of Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism.  No matter how noble one version sounds over another, it still requires someone to decide who gets what usually at the cost of someone else's rights.  It is still based on human nature.  The political spectrum is not Left vs Right.  They are all the same.  Sure, there are vastly different academic differences but where it counts, protecting the rights of the individual, they are all the same.  That's what makes all the difference with a ConstitutionalRepublic, where the law limits the power of the government over the people.  It doesn't try to "fix" human nature.  It doesn't try social engineering.  The political spectrum has 0% government at one end and 100% government at the other.  No matter where a government starts on the spectrum, its tendency is to lean toward the 100% end.  And in time, that’s where it ends up.

 

 

That definition of Democratic Socialist is the typical Capitalist-envy or Capitalist Derangement Syndrome.  Capitalism is not a fuzzy little puppy.  It’s crude and raw.  It requires people to be mature to properly wield it and fully benefit from it.  It requires individualism.  It requires understanding human nature.  What I love is the statement “…seeks to restrain the self-destructive excesses of capitalism…” and this is viewed from the form of government that is most destructive of the human condition.  Granted, Socialism is what built the greatest empires of the world but that is in the past.  It is history.  With the onset of the Age of Enlightenment brought on the end of slavery, it also brought the end of Socialism.  Marx-Engels was just the last hurrah.  Obama was trying to keep it alive and people saw what was going down.

What do you say to the argument stated earlier, that Capitalism does not in fact benefit the ordinary people or society as a whole, merely those who have been ruthless enough to manipulate their way into positions of power and great wealth? And that in fact, as a basis for government, it's pretty much the worst of all worlds? (note Capitalism as distinct from democracy in this instance; the two aren't synonymous, as you can in fact have democracies that have fairly socialist  social policies, for example.) 

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Dumbledore the Awesome
13 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Democratic socialism means folks like myself who climbed out of poverty get to go back in the hole. It means I get to have half my check stolen by government, while being told to shut up and check my privilege while I move back to the trailer park. 

Forget you and your socialism. You are a thief if you support it. 

The Christian principle that we should help those worse off than ourselves no longer applies, then? It's been superseded, perhaps ironically, by survival-of-the-fittest Darwinism? 

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MiskatonicGrad
4 hours ago, Aquila King said:

This is the fundamental difference in the mindset of progressives and conservatives. Conservatives view government control of the people as inherently bad, whereas progressives view corporate control of the people as inherently bad.

Less government control means more control by the corporations (i.e. Capitalism). Somebody's gotta take control, otherwise you have total anarchy. Corporations serve only their best interests so as to boost profits, nothing more. If boosting profits means screwing over the little guy and stealing your rights (which it often does), then they'll do it in a heartbeat. That's just how the money making machine works. Under a democratic government, the government is supposed to be of, by, and for the people, which means the common man is the one in control. If the government is corrupt, then the common man can vote the corrupt politicians out of office and replace them with someone who will properly represent them. That's how democracy works. It's essentially like one big labor union but in regards to everything. The goal of a democracy is to give power to the people, and out of the hands of special interests.

Your fear of a corrupt government is not completely unwarranted, as there are undoubtedly corrupt forms of government out there whose sole political motivations are to benefit the elites at the expense of the common man. However not all forms of government are inherently meant to work like that. Corporations on the other hand are a different story. Their entire goal and singular motivation is to increase profits. Any charitable work ever done by a corporation is done solely to increase the public's opinion of them, and thereby increase profits, and they are by no means motivated to help out the common man improve their lives since to do so more often then not hurts their bottom line. With corporations in power, you're absolutely guaranteed corruption will take place.

Your insistence on unchecked capitalism and less government control is the one thing that's guaranteed to bring about the very corruption you so desperately fear.

Who do you think controls the government right now in this country? Or any country? The People? Maybe some people who have the means to every government in history has been corrupted in the end. If you would educate yourself on our original constitution our founders got it as near to right as humans can and we still managed to screw it up. Corporations increase profits by making a better product or at least they should in socialism they just get the government to require the population to buy their product. Or at least that is how Obama and Bush defined Socialism.

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Setton
8 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Okay how about Hitler. No matter how you slice it Democratic Socialists are bad news. Socialism in any form goes against human nature same with communism. We are not wired to work that way. Now I could go on some long dissertation about how it doesn't work but I will let history speak for itself. Socialism looks good on paper but in practice ends with a really large body count and a population using 50 year old technology trying to scrape by with whatever crumbs fall off the parties table.

Humans are precisely designed to work with socialism. Look at our closest relatives. We are not isolational animals, we are social. We are wired to work together. 

5 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

It's called Canada. You might have heard about it. But then again, maybe not.

Hank

That's that 51st state somewhere in the Atlantic, right? 

5 minutes ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Who do you think controls the government right now in this country? Or any country? The People? Maybe some people who have the means to every government in history has been corrupted in the end. If you would educate yourself on our original constitution our founders got it as near to right as humans can and we still managed to screw it up. Corporations increase profits by making a better product or at least they should in socialism they just get the government to require the population to buy their product. Or at least that is how Obama and Bush defined Socialism.

That's not socialism. That's communism. I know in the US right you're taught anything other than capitalism = bad but at least learn what the different options are. 

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MiskatonicGrad
12 minutes ago, Setton said:

Humans are precisely designed to work with socialism. Look at our closest relatives. We are not isolational animals, we are social. We are wired to work together. 

That's not socialism. That's communism. I know in the US right you're taught anything other than capitalism = bad but at least learn what the different options are. 

As small group yes like a family unit, but even chimps go to war. You want to cause trouble in a family bring in a outsider who wants to change things. Where in human history do socialist get the idea that we are social animals on a large scale. Hell in know families that don't get along. And you people expect an entire country to work together generation after generation?

As to you second point they don't even teach capitalism in America. How many people even know who Milton Friedman was?

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preacherman76
1 hour ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

The Christian principle that we should help those worse off than ourselves no longer applies, then? It's been superseded, perhaps ironically, by survival-of-the-fittest Darwinism? 

The Christian principal never involved taking from people by force. 

I garrenty I do more for people worse off then myself then probably anyone here. I would never go over to my neighbor and demand they gave the same as I have. Then put them in a cage if they refused. 

LOL, I love when people who want to literally rob at gun point every who has more then they do start preaching about morality and Christian principles. Priceless

Edited by preacherman76
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preacherman76

And to add, no I absolutely am not willing to “give” to the point where my kids are raised in the same situation I was. 

I worked to hard to avoid that my entire adult life to let a bunch of commies take it from me. And keep in mind, I’m no where near rich. 

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RAyMO

There will come a time - not too far off, where there will be many fewer jobs - probably due to automation and AI - the old economic / social models will fail - not least because corporations won't have sufficient wage earners to buy their products and services. Earning of a wage through employment will have to be replaced by some other mechanism that allows the masses to live and the corporations to sell.

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preacherman76
19 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

There will come a time - not too far off, where there will be many fewer jobs - probably due to automation and AI - the old economic / social models will fail - not least because corporations won't have sufficient wage earners to buy their products and services. Earning of a wage through employment will have to be replaced by some other mechanism that allows the masses to live and the corporations to sell.

It seems that way, but I don't think that will actually go very far. What good is saving money on employment when no one has any money to buy the product? It will work for the first few, but when enough people become jobless they will see how foolish the whole thing was. Heck it may even become outlawed at that point.

If the day ever comes where the government just decides to give people enough money to live, like universal income, get ready for the great culling. It means we are no longer useful to them and they are gonna try to put us to sleep by pretending to provide. At that point its just a matter of time before they decide to unleash bio hell in some form.

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preacherman76

In fact we the people should fight automation at every turn while we still can. Boycott any company that turns to it so it ends up costing more then its worth.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
13 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

There will come a time - not too far off, where there will be many fewer jobs - probably due to automation and AI - the old economic / social models will fail - not least because corporations won't have sufficient wage earners to buy their products and services. Earning of a wage through employment will have to be replaced by some other mechanism that allows the masses to live and the corporations to sell.

off topic, but whenever I see AI, particularly in a sans-serif font, I always read it as Al, as in Jolson or Capone. Due to Al? i always think. Al who? How is he responsible? :huh:

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Dumbledore the Awesome
31 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

The Christian principal never involved taking from people by force. 

I garrenty I do more for people worse off then myself then probably anyone here. I would never go over to my neighbor and demand they gave the same as I have. Then put them in a cage if they refused. 

LOL, I love when people who want to literally rob at gun point every who has more then they do start preaching about morality and Christian principles. Priceless

Jesus did say give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, though. And he did make a point of bringing tax collectors into his disciples. :hmm: 

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RAyMO
3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

It means we are no longer useful to them and they are gonna try to put us to sleep by pretending to provide. At that point its just a matter of time before they decide to unleash bio hell in some form.

A rather dark view of it. But I don't have a crystal ball, there will still be jobs no doubt. Can't see AI writing many best sellers just yet or filling the internet with conspiracy blogs or being allowed to manage courts.

A stark choice will have to be made, you may be right but personally I think it will be more a move towards a form of socialism than mass culling.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
Just now, RAyMO said:

Can't see AI writing many best sellers just yet

There is a school of thought that Dan Brown, and E. R. James, (is it ER? Or am I thinking of M.R.? She who supposedly wrote Fifty Shades of Grey) are bots. :hmm: 

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RAyMO
Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

There is a school of thought that Dan Brown, and E. R. James,

Maybe I should have say good books rather than best sellers ;)

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MiskatonicGrad
2 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

A rather dark view of it. But I don't have a crystal ball, there will still be jobs no doubt. Can't see AI writing many best sellers just yet or filling the internet with conspiracy blogs or being allowed to manage courts.

A stark choice will have to be made, you may be right but personally I think it will be more a move towards a form of socialism than mass culling.

Socialism usually has cullings in it. Since it stifles the market the government doesn't have resources to provide for the masses so they remove some of the mass.

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MiskatonicGrad
13 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

In fact we the people should fight automation at every turn while we still can. Boycott any company that turns to it so it ends up costing more then its worth.

I work in maintenance. So when the robot overlords rise up I will be safe they will still need someone to fix the robots.

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preacherman76
25 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Jesus did say give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, though. And he did make a point of bringing tax collectors into his disciples. :hmm: 

Jesus didn't live in a government built by for and of the people though.

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preacherman76
26 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

A rather dark view of it. But I don't have a crystal ball, there will still be jobs no doubt. Can't see AI writing many best sellers just yet or filling the internet with conspiracy blogs or being allowed to manage courts.

A stark choice will have to be made, you may be right but personally I think it will be more a move towards a form of socialism than mass culling.

Oh no doubt, but when the vast majority are forced to become parasites to the federal reserve, I highly doubt that will be a thing for very long. Personally I don't see how that could be remotely sustainable anyway. Not without massive population reduction. They will be taking 110% of the money that author got selling his book.

When most people do not work, that isn't socialism. That's much worse. I just don't see how UI could be even close to functional in reality.

 

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preacherman76
30 minutes ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Socialism usually has cullings in it. Since it stifles the market the government doesn't have resources to provide for the masses so they remove some of the mass.

True. Seems the people in these experiments, historically speaking, have been the people of means though, strangely enough. At least to start with.

Edited by preacherman76

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Farmer77
10 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Socialism in any form goes against human nature same with communism. We are not wired to work that way.

 I disagree with this wholeheartedly but you do you. 

10 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

You are going to use out of control healthcare costs a horribly failing education system and have you ever been to a VA hospital as your defence for socialism? The fact that you people even consider socialism as a viable way to run anything proves how poor education is these days.

 No it simply proves we are paying attention and realize that life in an oligarchy does not benefit its citizenry. 

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Setton
1 hour ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

As small group yes like a family unit, but even chimps go to war. You want to cause trouble in a family bring in a outsider who wants to change things. Where in human history do socialist get the idea that we are social animals on a large scale. Hell in know families that don't get along. And you people expect an entire country to work together generation after generation?

As to you second point they don't even teach capitalism in America. How many people even know who Milton Friedman was?

As countries tend to. Kind of what a country is. 

We've managed around 300 years so far. Still going alright. 

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preacherman76
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

 I disagree with this wholeheartedly but you do you. 

 No it simply proves we are paying attention and realize that life in an oligarchy does not benefit its citizenry. 

What we have now is far better then anything tried before though, (over looking the oligarchy comment lol). Humans are wired to accept the structure we basically have now. That's why its been the most successful. Now sure there is plenty to still work on, and we are all over the map as to how to fix those things. To me though any government intended to create a situation where we don't have any struggles to survive is going to fail miserably. It just isn't natural. There are lots of examples of that right now in dramatically poor area's. For the most part most of those people are not starving. Most have a roof over their heads, cloths on their backs, free health care (best in the country in fact) and they are also dangerous hell holes.

Removing a persons ability to have better then what they have now is going to create a disaster. It will bring us all down to the lowest common denominator. Socialism just isn't the answer.

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godnodog
11 hours ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

Actually when we have a more conservative government we the people tend to flourish. When the government backs off and there is money to be made we tend to go out and make it. Now you people think you can use that prosperity to take care of those who won't take care of themselves. So you think socialism will help the laziest into being productive members of society. But all it does is drains resources and rewards nonmotivation.

Funny, where I am from what you call conservative government is called liberals, because if the country was to go conservative again a considerable part of the population would riot into a civil war because 60years of conservative made us the least advanced country of western europe.

The US Republican Party is, from an western european perspective, become a near radical right wing party, they are so right that makes  The Democratic party look "socialist", the DP is hardly a left wing party, 

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