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Sir Smoke aLot

Gaza on the brink...

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Sir Smoke aLot

First of all, this subject is decades old. At least 12 years old research studies do point out to possible outbreak of every bad thing which you could name that could possibly happen to society.

It was reported by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, independent journalists and also by mainstream sources all over the world, and as of recent, Israel agrees too. Situation in Gaza, they fear, could turn into such disaster that could lead to possible epidemics in Israel. I see why they are concerned now, but i am glad that Israel does realize that one's misfortune can very easily turn to your own. Hopefully steps will be made so that we avoid such outcomes, in best interest of both civilians in Gaza and in Israel ( after all it's tiny place and one can't avoid the other, especially if epidemics arise ).

Norman Finkelstein discusses some points from his new book, 'Gaza: An Inquest into It's Martyrdom', it is RT so many of you might simply move away without looking at it but it's about Gaza, about Israel and journalist discussing it with Norman Finkelstein so there is nothing related to Russia here and i would like it if we can focus on what Norman Finkelstein says.

This is about children drinking poisoned water, about being closed without option to escape... What are your opinions of this video, i was quite shocked that '2020' prediction was actually happening in 2014 or even before.

If you woul dlike to skip the intro, Finkelstein starts at 2:27, in the intro there are mentions of Netanyahu and some other things which are not important, important is civilian life in Gaza.

As promised to my dear @and then, here is one topic where we can talk about agendas freely if need be.

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RoofGardener

so Gaza has a potential medical problem ? Well... GOSH.. perhaps they should stop using Hospitals as weapons storage areas ? 

Starvation and disease in Gaza is NOT "misfortune", as you write Sir Smoke a Lt, it is HAMAS policy. 

Mind you, if RT reports it, then we should take it seriously. 

Sheesh.. I mean.. REALLY ? 

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Sir Smoke aLot
5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Well... GOSH.. perhaps they should stop using Hospitals as weapons storage areas ? 

If you have nothing constructive to add but want to simply accuse the victim and spit the same apologies as usual than at least write in bold part that you are not here for the sake of discussion about real issues which human beings are living under.

7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Starvation and disease in Gaza is NOT "misfortune", as you write Sir Smoke a Lt, it is HAMAS policy. 

Again, it's the victim who is to blame for everything. I am sorry to shatter your dreams but Israeli sources agree with what i say, for one reason or another.

7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Mind you, if RT reports it, then we should take it seriously. 

Sheesh.. I mean.. REALLY ? 

If you just gave time to read my post you would see that i actually have addressed this issue in a broad way but since you haven't read the OP nor did you watch the video it just proves my points about your remarks.

Apathy by some people strikes me so hard sometimes, i can not understand you now man, you claim that you are not apologist but what you do clearly make me to believe that you are. This issue was reported by early 2005 and it is not Hamas who controls supplies in Gaza.

New Israeli policy about people who leave Gaza (with Israeli permission) is for them to sign paper that they won't come back for 6 months or a year. Did Hamas do that? Out of thousands who want to leave only few papers are actually evaluated by IDF (yeah, IDF its military rule not state rule when it comes to Palestinians).

This law is further attack on the spirit of oppressed people and has only psychological effect on Palestinians because everyone there want's to leave that polluted, overcrowded prison.

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AnchorSteam

Gaza?

 

To hell with that place, what about the rest of the world?!?

 

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RoofGardener
12 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

If you have nothing constructive to add but want to simply accuse the victim and spit the same apologies as usual than at least write in bold part that you are not here for the sake of discussion about real issues which human beings are living under.

.......

Nice ad-hominem Sir Smoke aLot - thanks :) 

There are inumerable problems in Gaza, and they are ALL created by the group that the Palestinians voted into power, called "HAMAS". This is a militant, genocidal, fascist, religious-supremacist organisation, constitutionally dedicated to the forceful domination of the region formerly called "Palestine" (including modern-day Israel) and the imposition of Islam and Sharia on everyone in that region. They are Nazi's in Keffiya's.  

When HAMAS forswears its constitution and joins the human race, and when the Arabs in Gaza are allowed a free vote, and vote HAMAS out, THEN... and ONLY then will I have sympathy for the people of Gaza. 

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Hammerclaw

What's really amusing is--after the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords, Israel returned Sinai to Egypt and offered to return Gaza as well. Egypt politely but firmly refused the offer. Think about that for a while.

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Sir Smoke aLot
11 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

To hell with that place, what about the rest of the world?!?

I believe that this conflict affects everyone. Since British strives to protect it's industrialization and oil supplies over to Zionist strives to became regional powerhouse in ME that did affect rest of the world, especially Europe.

I gotta refer to speech by Gadaffi when he warned the Europe about influx of immigrants which would happen if he gets removed from power and if 'Arab Spring' dissolves 'natural' shield which some regimes provided.

What did we see after? Now whole of Europe leans towards far right (for good reason i might add, is it forbidden to preserve national identity?).

Keep in mind that if we are to stay true to our so called human values of these times than how is it possible that, even tho Human Rights Watch warned about things which Norman Finkelstein is talking about - how is it possible that now we have humanitarian disaster there? Is that what you mean by '' what about the rest of the world? ''. Is that how the world cares? It took 12 years from first reports about polluted water to get to 2018 but still those reports mean hardly anything. I suspect that when Israel decides that epidemics would affect their civilians that only then we shall see steps being done to lift the blockade which is in the core of problem of Gaza's prisoners.

Let me ask you, if there is humanitarian disaster elsewhere in the world should we just dismiss it and say 'but what about the rest of the world?'. What kind of logic is that? I'll tell you, the same logic which is behind supporting Saudis atrocities against Yemen and state orchestrated oppression and murders of people in Myanmar.

Your definition of 'the rest of the world' differs from mine because all it takes is few bad steps and 'rest of the world' might be at our doorstep. I know personally how does it feel when bombs destroy my house, make massacre in front of my apartment while international medias and officials in the UN talk about placing arms embargo against my people, leaving us to wait for slaughter by aggressors. That's how people in Syria felt, that's how Gaza feels and that is what was done to 500.000 of Iraqi children.

Were they 'the rest of the world' when they were being murdered? No. Focus was on the other 'rest of the world' that's why there are so many casualties.

Your links prove my point about Europe and how, especially Swedish, national identity is under large attack and threats. In Germany there are immigrants who publicly speak about how they: ''kick German kid on sight'', ''how Germans make only one or two kids but them immigrants make eight or ten kids in order to 'Muslimise' Germany''.

Those are problems which Europe faces and thanks for sharing those links.

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Sir Smoke aLot
8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Nice ad-hominem Sir Smoke aLot - thanks :) 

There are inumerable problems in Gaza, and they are ALL created by the group that the Palestinians voted into power, called "HAMAS". This is a militant, genocidal, fascist, religious-supremacist organisation, constitutionally dedicated to the forceful domination of the region formerly called "Palestine" (including modern-day Israel) and the imposition of Islam and Sharia on everyone in that region. They are Nazi's in Keffiya's.  

When HAMAS forswears its constitution and joins the human race, and when the Arabs in Gaza are allowed a free vote, and vote HAMAS out, THEN... and ONLY then will I have sympathy for the people of Gaza. 

It really was i won't escape from that and will not insult your intelligence by lying to you. But this time i was sure of what i say man and my biggest problem is saying what i am thinking. 

Anyways, you believe that it's Hamas who is behind every problem, i do not. Hamas doesn't have to join the human race, Hamas is the human race. But Hamas is forced to do dirt, so to say. Hezbollah on the other hand ( i have to draw a parallel here ) being free from occupation, actually promotes free life and secular way of life in Lebanon for which there are numerous examples  and that of cooperation between former enemies (Christian militias funded by Israel, Sunni Islamists and Shia groups) who now all applaud Hezbollah, famous Christian artists praise Hezbollah and Nasrallah in their art and so on and so forth.

Hamas doesn't have such luxury they can't even dig a tunnel to move out of that prison as they could do before so, for me it's illogical to blame Hamas and escape from saying anything wrong about Israel.

Keep in mind, as i told you before, that Japan and many other nations in the world accept 2006 election results as democratic but that which is not acceptable by Israel is being misrepresented on such a scale that now all we see is terrorist and even to poison their water gets presented as humane act in MSM, or simply not being mentioned at all.

Sharia law is only taking place in Western major ally in the region which are Saudis. Why not bash that? Sharia is acceptable when Saudis practice it but if Palestinian man sees Sharia as better alternative to occupation and oppression, that's totally out of the question and terrorist label is brought on him.

PS

Formerly called 'Palestine'... Are you aware that Romans gave that name very long time ago, damn it's even older identity than majority of nations in this world lol

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Sir Smoke aLot
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

What's really amusing is--after the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords, Israel returned Sinai to Egypt and offered to return Gaza as well. Egypt politely but firmly refused the offer. Think about that for a while.

Yes, Israel did return Sinai but after IDF evicted their own settlers who opposed those deals. Anyhow, this ain't about Camp David nor about Egypt but about children in Gaza drinking polluted water. Sadat is not providing water to Gaza, nor does Egypt provide electricity nor is it Egyptian army which extorts military rule over Palestinian issues.

There is a reason why Israel refuses to show up at Human Rights conventions. This being one of many.

 

 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Yes, Israel did return Sinai but after IDF evicted their own settlers who opposed those deals. Anyhow, this ain't about Camp David nor about Egypt but about children in Gaza drinking polluted water. Sadat is not providing water to Gaza, nor does Egypt provide electricity nor is it Egyptian army which extorts military rule over Palestinian issues.

There is a reason why Israel refuses to show up at Human Rights conventions. This being one of many.

 

 

I'm sorry, I don't recall them wanting Israel's help, requesting Israel's help. expressing willingness to accept Israel's help. Perhaps you can post a link that says the contrary. 

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Sir Smoke aLot
16 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I'm sorry, I don't recall them wanting Israel's help, requesting Israel's help. expressing willingness to accept Israel's help. Perhaps you can post a link that says the contrary. 

As if relation with one state determines credibility of human rights organizations. That would be Achilles heel for such organizations.  I didn't hear that so called humanitarians 'white helmets' asked for help of Syrian Red Cross and civil services operated by government which do operate in militant held areas too since start of war. 

Regardless, Israel did agree with reports about 'Protective Edge', issue which was addressed in the video. It's not just Israel, name one country which likes to be called out on the account of human rights? No one likes that and everyone try to clean their name but it's the way they comp with issues that describes countries for what they are.

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

As if relation with one state determines credibility of human rights organizations. That would be Achilles heel for such organizations.  I didn't hear that so called humanitarians 'white helmets' asked for help of Syrian Red Cross and civil services operated by government which do operate in militant held areas too since start of war. 

Regardless, Israel did agree with reports about 'Protective Edge', issue which was addressed in the video. It's not just Israel, name one country which likes to be called out on the account of human rights? No one likes that and everyone try to clean their name but it's the way they comp with issues that describes countries for what they are.

Yes, and that would include your precious Hamas with plenty of the blood of their own on their hands. Anyway, why would a country would want to lend aid and comfort to an enemy who has vowed their destruction, who digs tunnels to attack them, who fires missiles, indiscriminately, at civilian targets? Futile gestures with which they sow the wind, then reap the whirlwind of Israeli bombs. Selfish fools who would rather starve themselves and their people to feed their hate, rather than feast on the fruits of peace in the shadow of their blood enemy. Pride goeth before a fall, and it would seem the fate of the people of Gaza to fall, over and over again.

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Sir Smoke aLot
On 3/12/2018 at 11:36 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, and that would include your precious Hamas with plenty of the blood of their own on their hands.

As if that removes every guilt from occupation. Blaming the victim is only thing which you have to say.

A 2016 study led by Palestinian Environment Quality Authority researcher Hossam Zaqoot found traces of heavy metals like copper and lead were found in the muscles of fish caught near Gaza’s coast, and warned that though they were not yet at levels dangerous to humans, they could be in future if continued rises in pollution further poisoned the fish. The more immediate impact of the pollution, said Abu Thaer, has been in reducing the fish stocks off Gaza’s coast.

“The wastewater consists of a lot of dangerous materials like chlorine, ammonia and soap. This affects the fish itself – their growth is slowed and their stock doesn’t increase,” he said.

Taken from this link.

Google search '' Gaza water '' and only results within last week gives these results.

I am not so sure that Hamas use ammonia, chlorine and soap in building it's tunnels. When will people start to use their head instead of simply singing the same rhymes which we all listen to for decades, rhymes which go like '' terrorist, self defense, human shield ''? By doing so you neglect every single problem and simply blame it on Hamas. There was no Hamas before 2006 and there was water problem back then too.

From the same article: ''While Israel has met its water needs with desalinated water, building the world’s largest reverse osmosis plant only 30 miles north of Gaza, similar facilities in Gaza lack the electricity to run at full capacity.''.

I can't follow the logic that it's Hamas who provides electricity for Gaza, among other things.

And more blood on their hands have IDF especially with Hagana and Irgun whose members got incorporated in Israel and united army back in 1948. Israel's terror record is older, more brutal violent, responsible for many massacres and it's still going but there is no mention of Irgun nor who was 6th prime minister. That's not ancient history. Irgun made Hamas.

''

Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.

''
This is one of numerous examples of Zionist leadership openly speaking about what was done to Palestine, situation in Gaza is just another example of the same doctrine of imposing fear, brutality and horrors on native population with intention of expelling them from the land.
 
But you can blame Hamas, that's your right of opinion even tho you've made Hamas in the first place.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

As if that removes every guilt from occupation. Blaming the victim is only thing which you have to say.

 

 

Yes, I can blame Hamas for perpetuating the misery of their people by pursuing a conflict they can not win. They can not change the past, but the future is in their hands to make of it what they will, war or peace. A Gaza at peace would be a beacon of light for the world to pour it's wealth into to alleviate and ameliorate  all they problems they face. Instead, it is the playground of a minority of narrow-minded zealots who care more for vengeance than the welfare of their own. At this point in time, Hamas, not Israel, is Gaza's worst enemy.

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

As if that removes every guilt from occupation. Blaming the victim is only thing which you have to say.

Weeell.. is there justification in that approach ? 

According to the article you posted (which was very interesting), an element of the pollution is caused by the fact that there is not enough electricity to power the sewerage treatment plants, resulting in untreated sewage going  straight into Gaza's coastal waters. 

And why no electricity ? 

Because - if this article (from the WaPo) is to be believed - the Palestinian Authority is withholding fuel for the Gaza power station from HAMAS....  for political reasons. (which is also why the desalination plant can't work at full capacity.. or even at all). The Palestinian Authority is causing power (and hence water) shortages in Gaza. 

So who is the victim now ? 

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and then
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Weeell.. is there justification in that approach ? 

According to the article you posted (which was very interesting), an element of the pollution is caused by the fact that there is not enough electricity to power the sewerage treatment plants, resulting in untreated sewage going  straight into Gaza's coastal waters. 

And why no electricity ? 

Because - if this article (from the WaPo) is to be believed - the Palestinian Authority is withholding fuel for the Gaza power station from HAMAS....  for political reasons. (which is also why the desalination plant can't work at full capacity.. or even at all). The Palestinian Authority is causing power (and hence water) shortages in Gaza. 

So who is the victim now ? 

Hush!  You, RAY SUS!  Don't you know all their problems are because...ISRAEL? 

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Sir Smoke aLot

What amaze me is how this issue is ignored since late '80 and you guys still spit same BS.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166111608714158 This is one of many publications which are decades old. Water is best prospect for peace in the region.

Now, almost 4 decades after when people die from poisoned water, we still see lack of empathy and as a result, continuation of brutality.

There was no Hamas when these problems were present. Why do you do not want to see that simple fact? Because it shatters your beliefs.

Actually, what also bothers me is how you disregard even the lives of people like Rachel Corrie who died only because they used their brain and believed in so called 'democracy'. This topic is about ''Gaza has no clean water its polluted by sewage and what can and what should be done?'', not to blame anyone but you started blaming Hamas without even thinking about the subject. That is what is popularly described as ''Hasbara trolling'' these days. Just leave if you have nothing constructive to add, thanks.

I do not have anything more to say to apologists because you are so in love with Israel that you can't see what essentially is crime against humanity.

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and then
3 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I do not have anything more to say to apologists because you are so in love with Israel that you can't see what essentially is crime against humanity.

I learned quickly on this site that there is rarely the ability to calmly discuss such topics because everyone who attempts it has made their choice on which group they believe and cannot be swayed at all.  So what is the point?  I don't doubt that Gazan citizens are dealing with foul water.  I only doubt that the reasons for it are as simple to determine as you think.  Providing a clean source of drinking water for people who speak incessantly of removing you from your homes, killing you and your children and taking all the land from the river to the sea for their country, is hardly something you'd expect an enemy to do for another enemy now is it?  The ultimate answer to these problems always seems to get back to one simple premise - remove the Jews from Palestine and erryting will be ayrie... and it just isn't going to happen.  Perhaps if the citizens of Gaza stopped with the hate for long enough to demand that Hamas be removed and then negotiate in good faith with Israel and the world for a compromised solution to this issue, their children wouldn't need to drink poisoned water or go to substandard schools.  Man, if they made the choice for peace, the WORLD would pay their way into the 21st century and help them build a country that was wealthy.  People are sick to death of the problems of that region and it's becoming more, not less evident where the intransigence really is coming from.  Witness the Arab nations that are beginning to lose patience with the Palestinians... On the Israeli side, it is only the "settlers" that are the problem and they CAN be dealt with.  They are a minority.  They would yield to a political solution or be crushed.  But by all means, continue the chant against the Zionist plague.  It will make for a lively discussion in hell when the world gets burned down over the woes of the poor, innocent Palestinians.  SHEESH...

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Sir Smoke aLot
2 minutes ago, and then said:

I only doubt that the reasons for it are as simple to determine as you think. 

I agree on it too but essentially, reason is very simple. Israel-Palestine conflict is simple issue but it was made complicated by propaganda.

4 minutes ago, and then said:

poor, innocent Palestinians.  SHEESH...

What you wan't me to believe? That Israel wages war against Palestinian army? Of course that they are poor and innocent being oppressed and massacred since late 1800's. It's one sided brutality and water problem is just one of many issues which arise from occupation and unfairness towards local population.

From ''Time Immemorial'' over to ''Case for Israel'' it's all same BS and apologies such as ''land without people for the people without land'' which is proven to be lie but nonetheless it was spread and indoctrinated across ''civilized world'' to that point where even kid who throws stone against modern tanks is labeled as terrorist and actually is designated as military target.

Mr. Finkelstein refers to Ghandi for example and what does disproportionate power balance in conflict means under international law with his example of Poland and Nazi forces.

You wan't to promote such view in which Poland was violent in WW2. I do not think so, Polish resistance was only option for conquered nation to save some human dignity and do not became 100% submissive. 

I recommend you to listen to Norman's explanation of Ghandi in respect to this issue, he wrote short book about it and was lecturing students. 

So let me refer to moral authority of this world and share one quote:

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” ― Mahatma Gandhi

Today we are at the point where Palestine is partly (for most part) restored and Israel is there to stay but it wasn't enough and it still is not enough and Gaza, as result, is dying slowly over last few decades. 

In short, you can't possibly expect that anyone sane would regard this conflict as war between Israel and Palestine because it is one sided brutality and Gaza is only one aspect of it, as i said.

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Sir Smoke aLot
On 3/19/2018 at 4:09 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, I can blame Hamas for perpetuating the misery of their people by pursuing a conflict they can not win.

Would you surrender fully to occupiers of your land and nation? That is human dignity which Palestinians have more then the rest of the world combined.

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Sir Smoke aLot

Anyhow, i hope new studies and research will be done and good thing is that Israel sees the problem and possible negative impacts on Israel itself. Good reason to stay optimistic for people of Gaza and that their troubles, at least partly, will be solved very soon.

Aside from the fact that generation or two might be poisoned already it's never late to help because help can still be provided. 

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and then
4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

as i said.

Over and over and over, again, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.  Most simply do not care.  Those who do only care for one side or the other and aren't going to change their minds.  But do carry on...

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and then
4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That is human dignity which Palestinians have more then the rest of the world combined.

No, Smoke, what they have more of is undiluted, unquestioning hatred for Jews.  That kind of hatred destroys those who embrace it.  The only sympathy I have for the people there is that for them to be rid of their leadership is nearly impossible.  It would take greater dignity and courage than they possess to get rid of Hamas.  And more guns...

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JMPD1

Just for the record....

Gaza, Palestine, and the whole Middle Eastern area has been "on the brink" since 1947...........

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RoofGardener

Sir Smoke a Lot, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your position ? 

I got the impression that you where ascribing the pollution, drinking water shortages, and fuel shortages, to the actions of Israel in some way ? 

As I understand it, the water shortage and pollution (particularly sewage) are both caused by the fuel shortage (for the power station). 

But surely the shortage of fuel is nothing to do with Israel ? That is a political decision made by FATAH, in order to put political pressure on HAMAS ? Because it is the West Bank that provides the fuel for Gaza (ultimately donated by Western countries). 

So why the Israel connection ? Or am I in error somewhere ? 

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