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pallidin

Massive student walk-out

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 3/15/2018 at 11:33 AM, aztek said:
On 3/15/2018 at 11:27 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Have you read any of those links? First, I was talking about those in the walkout. The top two links talk about other protests from days before yesterday. The third link is not saying gun control advocates are not asking to repeal the second amendment, in fact, far from it. 

 

i was not talking about walkouts, but of a distant possibility of losing 2nd as some people in gvmnt want, yes 3rd link said they are not looking for it, but others make a case for it.

This thread is about the walkout. Yes, it happens that other events are brought up, but I do think the topic of this thread is the main talking point and I was talking about it's case. 

I think, if you really want me to see your point, make it easier to make your point. I don't have to believe it, especially so if I have to weed through various different points, and different sides of many links on a particular site of a search engine. 

On 3/15/2018 at 11:49 AM, aztek said:

what are you arguing?  mechanics of how i present proof, or you arguing that i'm wrong to think some politicians want to repel 2nd? 

It would be easier for me to see if you're correct about some politicians want to repeal it, if you honed in to show that. Not doing that, in a pick and choose puzzle. Yes, I'm arguing both, because one helps the other help you present better. (As I said, I don't have to believe you) 

I don't think you mentioned that you were thinking it before though. I wouldn't argue that, if you think that, then you do by your reasoning. 

22 hours ago, Gunn said:
On 3/14/2018 at 6:21 PM, pallidin said:

What the "ultra-right" gun advocates don't seem to get, or care, is societal concerns.

They only care about themself.

Extreme narcissism.

Okay first of all you're making an ignorant (ass)umption calling people who support gun rights "ultra-right" by lumping all gun supporters together like that. Not all of us are that far to the right, hell some of us are middle of the road \ independent  or libertarian types. There's even a few left leaning minority that support gun rights. And some of us do care about societal concerns, after all our children go to schools too, you know.

Frankly, I think the throwing around of the Alt-left and the Alt-right naming, is kind of ineffective. I see this in all areas, the pointing of fingers in the varying directions. Though, I think you're right in showing it's not a black and white label and lifestyle in gun owners. I think that it should be understood that it's not black and white in both sides. And that though one side may think the other is wrong in some things, it should be seen that they could be right in it too. 

Quote

And why is it so hard to go after the obvious main root of the problem - mental health? That's the biggest source of the problem here in the U.S. We've got plenty of gun control laws on the books now and adding more will not completely fix the problem if we don't fix the mental health care system first. It's not about the GUNZzzzzzz anymore! It's a mental health crisis because of a failing mental health system.

I couldn't agree with you more on mental health being a factor. But, I do believe it's not the only factor. I think that should be addressed, and that we need to look at situations where guns be sold with no background checks, like gunshows.  I really don't think we should say it's A or B. I think both are situations that should be looked at. 

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Gunn
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I couldn't agree with you more on mental health being a factor. But, I do believe it's not the only factor. I think that should be addressed, and that we need to look at situations where guns be sold with no background checks, like gunshows.  I really don't think we should say it's A or B. I think both are situations that should be looked at. 

While the sale of private guns in some dark alley somewhere without a Fed license is a valid point, that particular loophole is a small problem compared to failing mental health issue this country has. It seems to me you're looking at equalizing the concern on the two issues, and if that's case I don't agree with that. I compare it to a boat (U.S. gun massacres) with one small hole that's always been\being patched (gun control), and a massive hole that's hardly ever been attempted to patch (mental health).

But none of that matters if the Fed and local authorities are going to be lax on their jobs. As in the case with the church shooter and Cruz. They're just letting the boat slowly rot and then most may realize - well what's point of trying to fix it if they're not going to do their jobs?

 

Edited by Gunn
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Stubbly_Dooright
17 hours ago, Gunn said:
On 3/16/2018 at 4:19 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I couldn't agree with you more on mental health being a factor. But, I do believe it's not the only factor. I think that should be addressed, and that we need to look at situations where guns be sold with no background checks, like gunshows.  I really don't think we should say it's A or B. I think both are situations that should be looked at. 

While the sale of private guns in some dark alley somewhere without a Fed license is a valid point, that particular loophole is a small problem compared to failing mental health issue this country has. It seems to me you're looking at equalizing the concern on the two issues, and if that's case I don't agree with that. I compare it to a boat (U.S. gun massacres) with one small hole that's always been\being patched (gun control), and a massive hole that's hardly ever been attempted to patch (mental health).

But none of that matters if the Fed and local authorities are going to be lax on their jobs. As in the case with the church shooter and Cruz. They're just letting the boat slowly rot and then most may realize - well what's point of trying to fix it if they're not going to do their jobs?

Yes, I agree with you that. I think so too. I understand if you see differently on this than I do. Granted, I feel the same, strongly on it in fact, that they really need to work very hard on mental health in this country. I do feel their hesitancy on it, because where would they draw the line between invading privacy, and actually have the position to actually help. How would it be proper in how doctors diagnose the mental health of their patients. And, how they view it and making sure their patients do not feel stigmatized about it. 

Which is something, that needs working on, dispelling the myth of the label on individuals with poor mental health. No wants to hear, 'you need help'. There just seems to be some sort of 'wash your hands of ya' type of behavior. And I feel, that this is probably one of the reasons mental health is not being addressed, because of the hesitancy in labeling people. Just my feelings on that, if you understand. 

Now, I know you don't agree how I feel on various gun control outlooks. I understand that, but I do feel strongly that it's just not the mental health that's the problem here, it's also the readiness of purchase of certain guns and the outlook on background checks, in my observations.  I don't think I"m simplifying it. I feel, it's going to be very complicated, in both areas. 

I do understand your outlook, but I still feel strongly on mine. :) 

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Big Jim

I don't know where to weigh in on this, so please excuse the rambling, but we need to bring some sense of balance to all the factors that contribute to the problem.  When it comes to the issue of mental health vs gun control I think it's important to recognize that it's easier to buy a gun than it is to get treatment for mental illness.  Making one a little easier while making the other a little more difficult would help us towards achieving that balance.  Anyone who has ever had a family member who was mentally ill knows how frustrating it can be to get help for that person.  I had a sister in that category.  The police knew her, local mental health facilities knew her.  She was often a danger to herself and others and a general nuisance to the public.  But even when we could get some intervention the normal procedure was to hold her for 3 days of observation.  But crazy doesn't mean stupid.  She could act normal for 3 days and they had no choice but to release her.  Thank goodness my family was not part of the gun culture or we might all be dead.  But although I'm not a gun owner myself I fully support those that avail themselves of any of their inalienable rights.  I think the Second Amendment is spelled out because the Founders saw self defense as an absolute right and added the wording about a militia to bolster their argument.  The Constitution clearly states that rights come from God and not the State, so the right to self defense, including with arms, is a given, not something granted by the Constitution.  Mass shootings were beyond imagining when everyone was armed.  That was balance of another type.  I believe the numbers make this more of a mental health problem.  There are millions of gun owners and all of the shooters we're aware of had on going mental issues.  All the guns in the hands of the relatively sane have not been used in mass shootings.  Other than stricter controls on who can purchase a gun and where, I don't think more gun laws will help.  There have been laws against killing at least since Moses came down from the mountain and they haven't stopped anyone, so what use are a thousand more? This latest tragedy could have been prevented by the authorities intervening at dozens of key points and only one of them involved any kind of gun control.  Failure of procedures already in place contributed as much as the gun did.  

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Tatetopa
On 3/14/2018 at 8:06 AM, Dark_Grey said:

It's all we CAN do until a serious Federal investigation gives us serious Federal answers. But with all the lobbies and corruption and ignorance in Washington, it feels like us common folk are being hung out to dry here. The NRA wants this, the teachers union wants that, the prison lobby wants this, etc. etc. 

In the mean time, we have parents like you debating on whether or not it's even worth sending their kids to School. It's just horrible, dude.

yeah.  So it is not guns directly.  It is guns in the hands of folks becoming sociopaths. it could as well be knives or clubs or IED's .  Our society seems sick.  It is full of anger and distrust, repression, and suspicion which boils over in unstable individuals into escalating violent rage.  We are the richest country in the world and we are never close to the happiest.

Common folk are being hung up to dry, true fact.  They need our votes at least until the fix is secure. I know, I know it will be the fault of all of the liberals to half the people and the fault of all the conservatives to the other.  It is not liberals or conservatives any more than it is guns.  It is anger, distrust, repression, suspicion, and maybe hate.  Consider how very useful that is for the lobbyists and the corrupt to maintain power.  Pit us against each other like gladiators in the arena while they lean back, eat delicacies, drink wine, and fondle their favorites.

Help will not come from this bunch.  We have to start getting together more and helping each other.

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Tatetopa
On 3/16/2018 at 1:19 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I couldn't agree with you more on mental health being a factor. But, I do believe it's not the only factor. I think that should be addressed, and that we need to look at situations where guns be sold with no background checks, like gunshows.  I really don't think we should say it's A or B. I think both are situations that should be looked at. 

Add a C.  It is not the mental health of a small fraction of individuals in question, it is the mental health of our entire society. We create the environment for this to happen.  We allow it to happen.  Enough?  Not enough.  Any bets that there won't be more?  Piney said it is about inaction.  We tsk tsk say "ain't it a shame"  and do nothing  For a month or two, until we get board, both sides blame the most convenient bad guy.  Then we go on "what problem?"   I hear from AA the first step to solving a drinking problem is to admit you have a drinking problem. If we don't face ourselves we will continue in this course.  Maybe the kids are like a family intervention.  No parent should have to bury a child.

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Not A Rockstar
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

yeah.  So it is not guns directly.  It is guns in the hands of folks becoming sociopaths. it could as well be knives or clubs or IED's .  Our society seems sick.  It is full of anger and distrust, repression, and suspicion which boils over in unstable individuals into escalating violent rage.  We are the richest country in the world and we are never close to the happiest.

Common folk are being hung up to dry, true fact.  They need our votes at least until the fix is secure. I know, I know it will be the fault of all of the liberals to half the people and the fault of all the conservatives to the other.  It is not liberals or conservatives any more than it is guns.  It is anger, distrust, repression, suspicion, and maybe hate.  Consider how very useful that is for the lobbyists and the corrupt to maintain power.  Pit us against each other like gladiators in the arena while they lean back, eat delicacies, drink wine, and fondle their favorites.

Help will not come from this bunch.  We have to start getting together more and helping each other.

^That. Can't improve on that assessment, IMO.

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third_eye

The logic sequence determines that the longer firearms are made accessible to the present dire circumstances, firearms will always be the weapon of choice in such tragic occurrences.

Perhaps it is such a time where legal Provisional gun owners could find it in themselves to provide some solutions or accept certain compromises and grant some acceptance towards small inconveniences to owning high powered firearms which will help alleviate the pressures on the Laws presented, and designed to curb such incidences in the present or any for the near future.

~

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Stubbly_Dooright
8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:
On 3/16/2018 at 4:19 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I couldn't agree with you more on mental health being a factor. But, I do believe it's not the only factor. I think that should be addressed, and that we need to look at situations where guns be sold with no background checks, like gunshows.  I really don't think we should say it's A or B. I think both are situations that should be looked at. 

Add a C.  It is not the mental health of a small fraction of individuals in question, it is the mental health of our entire society. We create the environment for this to happen.  We allow it to happen.  Enough?  Not enough.  Any bets that there won't be more?  Piney said it is about inaction.  We tsk tsk say "ain't it a shame"  and do nothing  For a month or two, until we get board, both sides blame the most convenient bad guy.  Then we go on "what problem?"   I hear from AA the first step to solving a drinking problem is to admit you have a drinking problem. If we don't face ourselves we will continue in this course.  Maybe the kids are like a family intervention.  No parent should have to bury a child.

I just watched a program this morning, that had actress Glenn Close that talked about mental health, (her sister has it), from I got from watching this. There was one thing that caught my attention in one comment her sister answered in the interview. She said, she knows if she came from the hospital from heart surgery or the like, she would have the flowers, and the food dishes prepared for her. If it was coming from a stay for mental health, it would be nothing. I think that there is a good point there, that one will help out and be understanding for something else someone is healing from a hospital stay, but nothing when it's a stay for your mental health. I think it would make a big difference if those who came home from being treated for mental health, received the same loving treatment that one gets for other things. 

Like I have always felt, the stigma, in viewing and placing this on those who have it, has got to stopped and worked to reverse this thought from society. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
Posted (edited)

https://boingboing.net/2018/03/16/three-teens-get-corporal-punis.html

”we don’t like what you’re doing, so we will punish you.”

”feel free to beat us”

”okay”.

 

 

which one is the villain here? The system. The system that says their act of political expression is verboten is the villain.

Edited by Sir Wearer of Hats
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Stubbly_Dooright
42 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

https://boingboing.net/2018/03/16/three-teens-get-corporal-punis.html

”we don’t like what you’re doing, so we will punish you.”

”feel free to beat us”

”okay”.

 

 

which one is the villain here? The system. The system that says their act of political expression is verboten is the villain.

I read about that.  For me, that just angered me.  They expressed the need to address school violence, and they received...... violence. :huh:   

I would have thought that type of punishment disappeared years ago.  

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Michelle

It seems some students didn't have a choice either way. If they didn't go with the crowd they could also be punished.

An Ohio high school student has found himself at the center of political controversy after an online post about his suspension for staying in class during the national student school walkoutwent viral.

But that story isn’t exactly true.

cont...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2018/03/16/a-student-was-suspended-after-staying-in-class-and-not-walking-out-heres-what-actually-happened/?utm_term=.fa3b9e7ef92e

You can't win for losing sometimes.

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Big Jim
7 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I just watched a program this morning, that had actress Glenn Close that talked about mental health, (her sister has it), from I got from watching this. There was one thing that caught my attention in one comment her sister answered in the interview. She said, she knows if she came from the hospital from heart surgery or the like, she would have the flowers, and the food dishes prepared for her. If it was coming from a stay for mental health, it would be nothing. I think that there is a good point there, that one will help out and be understanding for something else someone is healing from a hospital stay, but nothing when it's a stay for your mental health. I think it would make a big difference if those who came home from being treated for mental health, received the same loving treatment that one gets for other things. 

Like I have always felt, the stigma, in viewing and placing this on those who have it, has got to stopped and worked to reverse this thought from society. 

I can understand your position and wish it could be this way, but it's hard to compare the two.  When someone comes home from the hospital after heart surgery, the family is grateful they survived and can be hopeful that the condition has been cured. The patient generally agrees.  When someone comes home after being observed for mental illness, (and that's what they do, observe, not treat), the family is walking on egg shells knowing that nothing has been cured and waiting for the patient's reaction.  Often that reaction is retaliation for the family seeking help.  With the mentally ill you never know what is the right thing to say or do, so it's usually safer to do nothing, knowing that may be wrong too.  My sister always came home angry after any intervention.  I'm no expert, far from it, but I know this one case fairly well and the trouble with dealing with the mentally ill is that you can't see it from their point of view.  Kindness might be seen as condescending.  Support might mean you think they're helpless.  Flowers would almost certainly be the wrong kind.  With heart disease it's clear who the patient is.  The symptoms stay with them.  With mental illness it's more like a virus that infects the whole family because even the unaflicted end up not acting normal.  I shudder to think what guns add to the equation.

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Stubbly_Dooright
16 hours ago, Big Jim said:
23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I just watched a program this morning, that had actress Glenn Close that talked about mental health, (her sister has it), from I got from watching this. There was one thing that caught my attention in one comment her sister answered in the interview. She said, she knows if she came from the hospital from heart surgery or the like, she would have the flowers, and the food dishes prepared for her. If it was coming from a stay for mental health, it would be nothing. I think that there is a good point there, that one will help out and be understanding for something else someone is healing from a hospital stay, but nothing when it's a stay for your mental health. I think it would make a big difference if those who came home from being treated for mental health, received the same loving treatment that one gets for other things. 

Like I have always felt, the stigma, in viewing and placing this on those who have it, has got to stopped and worked to reverse this thought from society. 

I can understand your position and wish it could be this way, but it's hard to compare the two.  When someone comes home from the hospital after heart surgery, the family is grateful they survived and can be hopeful that the condition has been cured. The patient generally agrees.  When someone comes home after being observed for mental illness, (and that's what they do, observe, not treat), the family is walking on egg shells knowing that nothing has been cured and waiting for the patient's reaction.  Often that reaction is retaliation for the family seeking help.  With the mentally ill you never know what is the right thing to say or do, so it's usually safer to do nothing, knowing that may be wrong too.  My sister always came home angry after any intervention.  I'm no expert, far from it, but I know this one case fairly well and the trouble with dealing with the mentally ill is that you can't see it from their point of view.  Kindness might be seen as condescending.  Support might mean you think they're helpless.  Flowers would almost certainly be the wrong kind.  With heart disease it's clear who the patient is.  The symptoms stay with them.  With mental illness it's more like a virus that infects the whole family because even the unaflicted end up not acting normal.  I shudder to think what guns add to the equation.

I'm glad that you posted this. I think it is important to get another side of it. And that, myself seeing as to why. And yes, I think it is hard to compare it to those coming home from something like heart surgery. And I wonder, is mental illness curable, or something else? 

Though, as dicey as the reactions to coming home from a stay for observations, I wonder though, the need for loved one's support for those should be something to work on. What about someone coming home from a stay at a addiction rehab center? If I'm correct on this, (I might not be) you're not really cured from addiction, you're just learned to work through it or close to it. (correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong or off a bit) I wonder at the attention they get when they are released and can go home. 

I think, along with the many things needing addressing in mental health, I think how we view it and treat others with it, is part of that. 

Not that I think you're wrong in what you put, or even posting it, (far from it,) this I found very informational and needed to be said. I think it goes deeper in how mental health is viewed from those who are in the lives of mental health sufferers.  

Though, I must even feel to say, addiction and mental health, (though I think addiction can fall under an aspect of mental health, if I'm correct) is like comparing apples and oranges too. My point is, I still think we all need to work on how a patient of mental health issues, really needs to be worked on and the stigma lifted. I feel, if things progress to a more positive outlook of how one is viewed with mental health issues, I think more will feel freer in seeking help. 

My feelings there, but I agree with you on this. 

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Big Jim
6 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I'm glad that you posted this. I think it is important to get another side of it. And that, myself seeing as to why. And yes, I think it is hard to compare it to those coming home from something like heart surgery. And I wonder, is mental illness curable, or something else? 

Though, as dicey as the reactions to coming home from a stay for observations, I wonder though, the need for loved one's support for those should be something to work on. What about someone coming home from a stay at a addiction rehab center? If I'm correct on this, (I might not be) you're not really cured from addiction, you're just learned to work through it or close to it. (correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong or off a bit) I wonder at the attention they get when they are released and can go home. 

I think, along with the many things needing addressing in mental health, I think how we view it and treat others with it, is part of that. 

Not that I think you're wrong in what you put, or even posting it, (far from it,) this I found very informational and needed to be said. I think it goes deeper in how mental health is viewed from those who are in the lives of mental health sufferers.  

Though, I must even feel to say, addiction and mental health, (though I think addiction can fall under an aspect of mental health, if I'm correct) is like comparing apples and oranges too. My point is, I still think we all need to work on how a patient of mental health issues, really needs to be worked on and the stigma lifted. I feel, if things progress to a more positive outlook of how one is viewed with mental health issues, I think more will feel freer in seeking help. 

My feelings there, but I agree with you on this. 

I'm glad to be part of the discussion.  As I see it, the difference between an addict and someone who is mentally ill is that the addict knows they have a problem while the mentally ill often think that everyone else has a problem.  They don't seek help because in their mind they are the only sane ones.  The mere suggestion to someone that they should seek help often results in retaliatory accusations.  "You think I need help!?  What about you?  And your little dog too!"  And it goes downhill from there.  After a while the subject is never brought up again.  You wait for the next crisis and hope the police or doctors or somebody will step in and take over, but they never do.  Guns in their hands are certainly more dangerous than they would be in the hands of someone in full possession of their faculties but the expression of their rage does not require guns.  Look at what is going on in Austin at the moment.  My sister's weapon of choice was the telephone.  She would call our parent's house constantly until the only relief was to turn off the phone.  Then she'd call 911 for an emergency check, usually around 2:00 a.m. and wake up the neighborhood with firetrucks and ambulances.  She would call people's employers, or children's services, or utility companies and cause real trouble in their lives.  What is needed are laws that allow the police and other authorities to intervene before a crisis occurs.  We need more institutions where real care and treatment is provided and not just a ward for temporary warehousing in the local hospital.  Too often mental illness is regarded as merely an alternative lifestyle and not as a disease that can be deadly not only to the afflicted person but to others around them and by extension, society at large.  Until we start give mental illness control the same priority as gun control, nothing will improve.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
23 hours ago, Michelle said:

It seems some students didn't have a choice either way. If they didn't go with the crowd they could also be punished.

An Ohio high school student has found himself at the center of political controversy after an online post about his suspension for staying in class during the national student school walkoutwent viral.

But that story isn’t exactly true.

cont...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2018/03/16/a-student-was-suspended-after-staying-in-class-and-not-walking-out-heres-what-actually-happened/?utm_term=.fa3b9e7ef92e

You can't win for losing sometimes.

Ruddy hell thats wrong. How DARE they infringe another person’s right to make a political statement while they themselves are making a political statement. 

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aztek
Posted (edited)
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Ruddy hell thats wrong. How DARE they infringe another person’s right to make a political statement while they themselves are making a political statement. 

because statements are opposite and one side has power to punish the other. school broad vs students, and SB will and do use that power every time for any purpose, rightful or not.

Edited by aztek
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Stubbly_Dooright
20 hours ago, Big Jim said:

I'm glad to be part of the discussion.  As I see it, the difference between an addict and someone who is mentally ill is that the addict knows they have a problem while the mentally ill often think that everyone else has a problem.  They don't seek help because in their mind they are the only sane ones.  The mere suggestion to someone that they should seek help often results in retaliatory accusations.  "You think I need help!?  What about you?  And your little dog too!"  And it goes downhill from there.  After a while the subject is never brought up again.  You wait for the next crisis and hope the police or doctors or somebody will step in and take over, but they never do.  

I agree with you on this. And yes, one would think they would step in, and yes, I would noticed, they don't. Or, they have a fear in doing so. I really wish, if this is the case over all, that this fear is addressed, and we all deal with it, so we can come to a conclusion on when we can step in and it ends up helping all parties. 

Quote

Guns in their hands are certainly more dangerous than they would be in the hands of someone in full possession of their faculties but the expression of their rage does not require guns.  Look at what is going on in Austin at the moment.  

I think that is a good point. :yes: 

Quote

My sister's weapon of choice was the telephone.  She would call our parent's house constantly until the only relief was to turn off the phone.  Then she'd call 911 for an emergency check, usually around 2:00 a.m. and wake up the neighborhood with firetrucks and ambulances.  She would call people's employers, or children's services, or utility companies and cause real trouble in their lives.  What is needed are laws that allow the police and other authorities to intervene before a crisis occurs.  We need more institutions where real care and treatment is provided and not just a ward for temporary warehousing in the local hospital.  Too often mental illness is regarded as merely an alternative lifestyle and not as a disease that can be deadly not only to the afflicted person but to others around them and by extension, society at large.  Until we start give mental illness control the same priority as gun control, nothing will improve.

And, again, I couldn't agree with you more here. And it does make me feel :no: that it doesn't. I seriously feel that this nation needs to stop tip toeing, ( al bait, understandable, but it's time to act now, in my feeling) and deal with it with the same attitude. I have been always saying this, and I'm glad there are others who feel the same as I do. :yes: 

 

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Gunn
On 3/17/2018 at 7:27 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yes, I agree with you that. I think so too. I understand if you see differently on this than I do. Granted, I feel the same, strongly on it in fact, that they really need to work very hard on mental health in this country. I do feel their hesitancy on it, because where would they draw the line between invading privacy, and actually have the position to actually help. How would it be proper in how doctors diagnose the mental health of their patients. And, how they view it and making sure their patients do not feel stigmatized about it. 

Which is something, that needs working on, dispelling the myth of the label on individuals with poor mental health. No wants to hear, 'you need help'. There just seems to be some sort of 'wash your hands of ya' type of behavior. And I feel, that this is probably one of the reasons mental health is not being addressed, because of the hesitancy in labeling people. Just my feelings on that, if you understand. 

 

Totally understand and you've made some fine points here. Couldn't agree more.
 

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Now, I know you don't agree how I feel on various gun control outlooks. I understand that, but I do feel strongly that it's just not the mental health that's the problem here, it's also the readiness of purchase of certain guns and the outlook on background checks, in my observations.  I don't think I"m simplifying it. I feel, it's going to be very complicated, in both areas. 

I do understand your outlook, but I still feel strongly on mine. :) 

 

During the time you and I have been discussing mental health\gun control here on UM, I'm sure you've heard in the news about the Austin serial bomber, in which case the authorities finally caught up with him today. But he killed too many people before they did catch up with him and then he killed himself in the end with his own bomb. So this is why I feel much, much more strongly about mental health in this country then more gun control. Because anybody who wants to kill people in this way is just as mentally ill despite their motivated reasons, and unfortunately it proves they don't need a gun to carry out their sick agenda if they want to kill people while in that state of mind.

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Stubbly_Dooright
59 minutes ago, Gunn said:

Totally understand and you've made some fine points here. Couldn't agree more.
 

During the time you and I have been discussing mental health\gun control here on UM, I'm sure you've heard in the news about the Austin serial bomber, in which case the authorities finally caught up with him today. But he killed too many people before they did catch up with him and then he killed himself in the end with his own bomb. So this is why I feel much, much more strongly about mental health in this country then more gun control. Because anybody who wants to kill people in this way is just as mentally ill despite their motivated reasons, and unfortunately it proves they don't need a gun to carry out their sick agenda if they want to kill people while in that state of mind.

Yup, found out first thing this morning, when I grabbed the laptop to view my morning new with my breakfast. And then, later on I found out his identity and various bits. From this, I was trying to figure out why and what his motive was. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, and there has to be, in my opinion(feelings) that mentally drove him or something that triggered him mentally to do this. And yes, there were no guns, in fact, I would think how intelligent he had to be to create and configure the bombs he used. 

If anything, I would be strongly motivated to see how you made an even greater point on really focusing on mentally health. I think this would be a good example. Will that happen from this, I wonder? Those that be, focusing more on mentally health? I feel though, unfortunately that they will just discuss it, ask 'experts' and then probably not go from there. 

Also, this brings back a memory, of one book store I worked in in the past and in another state, where one particular (regular?) customer always ordered books that (I kid you not) were encyclopedias in building bombs and other such books that talked about what you need for them. Let's just say, that was put to a stop. I know, it can be tricky when addressing this topic, but that example right there, should be a big gigantic hint. I do think that this was reported, and I think I remember being told so that this happened. Considering there was nothing more going on with that, I'm going to assume, this person get the attention to deal with this. 

Yet, in one side, this was a red flag. On another, does someone have the right to have the authorities to intervene? Well, yeah, I would think yes, but how far is one going to go to consider something a red flag? Also during these times, I got lost, after dropping off a coworker to their home, and as I pulled into a drive way to some power facility and pulled out so I can turn around, I was pulled over by a cop, because that area was a known area for criminal activities during the night. Of course, I was let go, because I wasn't deemed someone just using it to turn around. Then again, it should have been noticed that I was using it as a turn around, but I was pulled over, because of a 'red flag' type area. *shrugs* I don't know, I was in shock about it, but no lasting damage and I was on my way. 

I don't know if that is a good example, my point is, despite it is a good idea to explore mental health, it's red flags, and see about getting 'those' help and so forth, how far is it going to go? Even though I want mental health addressed, I do think of these 'side effects' of it. And because it was ignored for so long, and given a horrible stigma for that amount of time, that is going to be a long haul in doing so. 

Don't get me wrong, it should still be done. But they need to admit, they did wrong in how it was done and to take the responsibility for how they looked at it and to reverse it. In summary, work really hard in making those with mental health issues feel that they are not criminals. 

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