Blinded by your religion.

[Illyrius]

2 minutes ago, Mr Guitar said:

They're not in my mind and I don't see them anywhere else or any evidence to point to their existence. I want proof of the existence of any supreme/spiritual being or it's impossible for me to believe he/she/it/they exists. I guess faith is believing that something exists even without proof - my mind just doesn't work that way - I guess it's my engineering background - I wanna see the math!

Due to limitations of perception and language this beings of higher order are described with symbolism and as anthropomorphic entities. It is made that way because of this limitations and it is not too unlike to symbolical representation of a sun as a yellow circle, for example.

[Mr Guitar]

2 minutes ago, Illyrius said:

Due to limitations of perception and language this beings of higher order are described with symbolism and as anthropomorphic entities. It is made that way because of this limitations and it is not too unlike to symbolical representation of a sun as a yellow circle, for example.

The sun IS a yellow circle - that's how you would draw/represent it and that is, indeed, what it looks like if you look into the sky. And we DO NOT KNOW that there are beings of a so called "higher order" we can only imagine such things because we have NO PROOF. We can imagine/wish/pray all we want to but that won't make it true. It is only true if it is proven to be true by a preponderance of the evidence - anything else is pure conjecture and wishful thinking, things that I, personally, have no time for. I deal in realities not wishful thinking.  Yes, I wish a starship from Alpha Centauri would orbit this planet tomorrow and zap every useless politician out of existence but I know it ain't gonna happen so i don't waste my time worrying/thinking about it - I have other things to do that will further the enjoyment of what life I have left. I'm not a dreamer.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Mr Guitar said:

One of the (many) things that steered me away from ANY religion as a young child was going to Sunday school and finding out that the church (Baptist) was sending missionaries out to sway others away their religion and toward the Baptist/Christian path. Even at that young age, I thought, "how dare they? - what gives them the right to go out and try to change a culture's ingrained belief system?" What would these Baptist folk do if that tribe from Vanuatu who worships airplanes came over and tried to convert them? It's no wonder so many missionaries were killed (boiled/eaten) in jungles throughout the world for  casting aspersions on the prevailing faith. And, I don't feel a bit sorry for them as they brought it on themselves; I'm of the opinion that you don't go where you're not wanted unless you're intending to become a martyr.

They get their followers to burn Vodou Priests in Haiti and Africa and attack members of the Miidiiwiin among the Nabe.

[SHaYap]

They traveled pretty far and wide just to burn heretics other than little white witches and sorceresses ...

~ 

[simplybill]

1 hour ago, Mr Guitar said:

What would these Baptist folk do if that tribe from Vanuatu who worships airplanes came over and tried to convert them? It's no wonder so many missionaries were killed (boiled/eaten) in jungles throughout the world for  casting aspersions on the prevailing faith. And, I don't feel a bit sorry for them as they brought it on themselves; I'm of the opinion that you don't go where you're not wanted unless you're intending to become a martyr.

Do you think there are some cultures that should be confronted? Was it wrong for Christian missionaries to convert the headhunters of New Guinea, who were honored by their fellow tribesmen for beheading even their own friends? Is it wrong to tell someone in the prevailing faith of the Boko Haram culture that kidnapping schoolgirls and confining them to rape rooms is bad behavior, or would it be an insult to their religion? Was it wrong of Martin Luther to confront the theocratic Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages?

If anyone replies that we need a 'common sense' agreement on basic laws, then it should be noted that in other parts of the world female genital mutilation makes sense (lest women become inflamed with lust). So what then? Do we begin arguing over whose 'common sense' is best? Along side multiculturalism, should we also embrace 'multi-common-sense-ism'?   

Can humankind evolve into a kinder, gentler, global society, or will the most aggressive ideology simply force itself on the rest of the world?

[SHaYap]

12 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Can humankind evolve into a kinder, gentler, global society, or will the most aggressive ideology simply force itself on the rest of the world?

Well ... eradicating them by burning them wont help ...

~

[Mr Guitar]

7 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Do you think there are some cultures that should be confronted? Was it wrong for Christian missionaries to convert the headhunters of New Guinea, who were honored by their fellow tribesmen for beheading even their own friends? Is it wrong to tell someone in the prevailing faith of the Boko Haram culture that kidnapping schoolgirls and confining them to rape rooms is bad behavior, or would it be an insult to their religion? Was it wrong of Martin Luther to confront the theocratic Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages?

If anyone replies that we need a 'common sense' agreement on basic laws, then it should be noted that in other parts of the world female genital mutilation makes sense (lest women become inflamed with lust). So what then? Do we begin arguing over whose 'common sense' is best? Along side multiculturalism, should we also embrace 'multi-common-sense-ism'?   

Can humankind evolve into a kinder, gentler, global society, or will the most aggressive ideology simply force itself on the rest of the world?

As brutal and unfeeling as it may seem, I don't think we should force our values on other cultures just like we don't want Sharia law in our country - you know the uproar that even the thought of that has caused. I maintain that people in an oppressive society have the power to change things but, in most cases, don't have the guts. If they don't like it - change it - the US did it in 1776 and a lot of folks died but we have a lot more freedom because of it. If the Muslim women don't want genital mutilation, let them change it - it's none of our business - it's their culture and it's up to them to make changes in their own society. Yes,people will die, but sometimes that's what it takes.

[Illyrius]

56 minutes ago, Mr Guitar said:

The sun IS a yellow circle

Ummm... it is a sphere.

[simplybill]

10 minutes ago, Mr Guitar said:

I maintain that people in an oppressive society have the power to change things but, in most cases, don't have the guts.

There's a reason that the weakest in society become the prey: they don't have the ability to fight back. That's why schoolgirls are kidnapped, and widows in India are thrown on their husband's funeral pyres (the British ended the practice of Sati, but it's becoming popular again in rural areas). I have a real problem with the mistreatment of women. If you think I'm being judgmental, I agree with you.  

[jamesjr191]

3 hours ago, freetoroam said:

Is this not the same with some others....finding faults in other religions?

I am not religious, but i can see the similarities in the ideas people have about religion.

The idea that their god is the only true god, the idea their beliefs are the only true beliefs because they have been given to them by ---- the only true god.

In different parts of the world, people have formed their versions of beliefs and over the centuries many have been killed if they chose not to follow that particular belief.

As each child is born within a relgious community, they are taught the belief and about god, hence the cycle continues. 

Although we now live in a more global world, the words of religion was spread around the world through travelling missionaries and preachers and armies.

For those who are true believers in their chosen religion, there is no other god, how can there be? How could there be more than one maker? How can there be different versions on their teachings, this would mean there could be fault or errors with theirs, and they will never have that.....hence some will go all out to convert others. 

They have a belief and some an agenda, that their beliefs are not questioned and the more people they can convert, the less people will objectively question or disagree with them

The more people who see it their way, the stronger they feel, but is this really not a weakness?

 

 

 

I understand the concept that some fully believe they have all the answers when it comes to religious convictions. I even accept i could be wrong in my ideology. I just cant understand how some are so blinded by their own views. Of course, i may be the one missing out on the epiphany here as i have no religious beliefs that i feel should be accepted by everyone. Do Unto Others.......is the only one i follow.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

4 hours ago, jamesjr191 said:

Forgot to mention, i see now her attempt at knowledge wasn't to better herself or the world in general. Seems she was only interested in finding fault in the various religions of the world to drop her "god" bomb on them.

Makes me wonder, if by the time she finishes the course, she realizes her arrogance and thinks differently. 

3 hours ago, freetoroam said:

For those who are true believers in their chosen religion, there is no other god, how can there be? How could there be more than one maker? How can there be different versions on their teachings, this would mean there could be fault or errors with theirs, and they will never have that.....hence some will go all out to convert others. 

They have a belief and some an agenda, that their beliefs are not questioned and the more people they can convert, the less people will objectively question or disagree with them

The more people who see it their way, the stronger they feel, but is this really not a weakness?

I often wonder about that, when I reflect on proselytizers. When I think of myself and my belief, I like to think that not only I embrace all the other beliefs and those who don't have beliefs with passion, I feel that I can pretty much grounded in my own, that no one else can sway me from it. I feel that's a strength for me and my belief. 

Someone who feels this way, and uses this as an excuse to proselytize and convert, are probably not that secure in their own belief to begin with. So, I think that is a weakness. 

3 hours ago, Illyrius said:

What is somehow mysterious is that people today think only in terms of "proofs". They don't think in terms of possibilities and symbolism. What is also characheristic for this framework of mind is that it sees only one perspective of any sort of phenomena and thus it remains in a dark little box of almost complete ignorance. The very people that accuse spiritually oriented people of ignorance and narrow mindedness are in fact living in this closed little prison of thought, and that is very sad indeed.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. From my perspective and observations, those who seem to think in terms of "proofs" are more than likely the ones who are approached by those who want to convert them. The ones who think in terms of possibilities and symbolism are more than likely the ones who already have the belief and have their own "proofs" already. Not saying, that all those trying to convert, but on anyone already grounded in a belief. I see myself grounded in my belief, to feel that way. 

If I'm approached to convert to someone else's, than it's understandable I'll need "proofs" to see it to believe it. It's all in how and who sees it. 

 

[GoldenWolf]

3 minutes ago, jamesjr191 said:

I understand the concept that some fully believe they have all the answers when it comes to religious convictions. I even accept i could be wrong in my ideology. I just cant understand how some are so blinded by their own views. Of course, i may be the one missing out on the epiphany here as i have no religious beliefs that i feel should be accepted by everyone. Do Unto Others.......is the only one i follow.

Don't ever think The Golden Rule over Might is Right is ever wrong.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

37 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Do you think there are some cultures that should be confronted? Was it wrong for Christian missionaries to convert the headhunters of New Guinea, who were honored by their fellow tribesmen for beheading even their own friends? Is it wrong to tell someone in the prevailing faith of the Boko Haram culture that kidnapping schoolgirls and confining them to rape rooms is bad behavior, or would it be an insult to their religion? Was it wrong of Martin Luther to confront the theocratic Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages?

If anyone replies that we need a 'common sense' agreement on basic laws, then it should be noted that in other parts of the world female genital mutilation makes sense (lest women become inflamed with lust). So what then? Do we begin arguing over whose 'common sense' is best? Along side multiculturalism, should we also embrace 'multi-common-sense-ism'?   

Can humankind evolve into a kinder, gentler, global society, or will the most aggressive ideology simply force itself on the rest of the world?

You know, granted, I do feel there have been good things to some who have come to other cultures. I know of someone who went as one and helped educated and other good things for a village. It came off to me, as very selfless.  

But, I do agree, and I'll echo a sentiment to the OP, it's strikes me as a thought of who has the right to think they should 'educate' others on what they think themselves as right. Even more so, if it's not totally provable all around. 

I think there should be a line of what is good and what is not, in this. 

 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Illyrius said:

Gods of polytheism are beings of higher spiritual order and they all exists in the mind as well as outside of mind.

Gods of polytheism are deified ancestors. "Spirits" of indigenous beliefs are "spiritual aspects" of objects which are actually part of Creation itself. Not actually spirits or gods in the Western sense but "spiritual essences" and part of the "Higher Power".

[Piney]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Do you think there are some cultures that should be confronted? Was it wrong for Christian missionaries to convert the headhunters of New Guinea, who were honored by their fellow tribesmen for beheading even their own friends?

Who are they to judge? They were only beheaded after death.

[Piney]

35 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

You know, granted, I do feel there have been good things to some who have come to other cultures. I know of someone who went as one and helped educated and other good things for a village. It came off to me, as very selfless.  

I think there should be a line of what is good and what is not, in this. 

Quaker missionaries try to preserve indigenous beliefs and only give food, clothing and medical aid.  

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Illyrius said:

Due to limitations of perception and language this beings of higher order are described with symbolism and as anthropomorphic entities. It is made that way because of this limitations and it is not too unlike to symbolical representation of a sun as a yellow circle, for example.

The European languages are very limited with spiritual thought but the Asian and Indigenous ones are not. I can explain a whole concept in Japanese or Unami with one word where it would take me a hour to explain it in English

[StarMountainKid]

I read in some history book years ago the comment that, in discovering the New World (the Americas), the Protestants sent explorers and traders, the Catholics sent soldiers and Priests.  Which would be the better method? 

Either way, most indigenous Americans died of diseases they had no immunity for. The Priest's and missionary's breath as they told them about the Christian God was killing them. 

[simplybill]

8 minutes ago, Piney said:

Who are they to judge? They were only beheaded after death.

Yes, the murder usually preceded the beheading ceremony. I believe Christian missionaries were correct in judging murder as a poor choice for gaining spiritual power. 

"Anthropological writings explore themes in headhunting that include mortification of the rival, ritual violence, cosmological balance, the display of manhood, cannibalism, dominance over the body and soul of his enemies in life and afterlife, as a trophy and proof of killing (achievement in hunting), show of greatness, prestige by taking on a rival's spirit and power, and as a means of securing the services of the victim as a slave in the afterlife."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headhunting

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Yes, the murder usually preceded the beheading ceremony. I believe Christian missionaries were correct in judging murder as a poor choice for gaining spiritual power. 

"Anthropological writings explore themes in headhunting that include mortification of the rival, ritual violence, cosmological balance, the display of manhood, cannibalism, dominance over the body and soul of his enemies in life and afterlife, as a trophy and proof of killing (achievement in hunting), show of greatness, prestige by taking on a rival's spirit and power, and as a means of securing the services of the victim as a slave in the afterlife."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headhunting

That's from your Christian point of view and it is not your right to judge. 

Christians slaughtered my kind, members of my Society for 200 years yet I do not judge you or even hate Christians, though I think the concept of Good vs Evil and original sin is barbaric

[Piney]

13 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

I read in some history book years ago the comment that, in discovering the New World (the Americas), the Protestants sent explorers and traders, the Catholics sent soldiers and Priests.  Which would be the better method? 

Either way, most indigenous Americans died of diseases they had no immunity for. The Priest's and missionary's breath as they told them about the Christian God was killing them. 

The priests would kill any children at their schools who didn't convert. They're still finding mass graves in Canada that date all the way up to the 1930s.

[simplybill]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's from your Christian point of view and it is not your right to judge. 

Christians slaughtered my kind, members of my Society for 200 years yet I do not judge you or even hate Christians, though I think the concept of Good vs Evil and original sin is barbaric

Piney - You don't think it's judgmental to make the assertion that everyone who has mistreated indigenous peoples was following the teachings of Jesus Christ? That's a broad, blanket statement.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, simplybill said:

Piney - You don't think it's judgmental to make the assertion that everyone who has mistreated indigenous peoples was following the teachings of Jesus Christ? That's a broad, blanket statement.

Never said all Christians, My best friend is a Presbyterian Minister. 

[Piney]

@simplybill   I am what is known in the Miidiiwin as a Kiimochnii",a "Night Walker". My job is to handle and throw around "bad woo". From a Christian point of view I am pure evil, but from a Algonquian point of view I'm just part of the Balance to help maintain the Balance.  So I do not judge other beliefs at all.

[Mr Guitar]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's from your Christian point of view and it is not your right to judge. 

Christians slaughtered my kind, members of my Society for 200 years yet I do not judge you or even hate Christians, though I think the concept of Good vs Evil and original sin is barbaric

Exactly - didn't someone say "don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins"? It's not my place or your place to tell someone from another culture how they should live their life - it strikes me as the height of egotism. Christians strike me this way - holier than thou and better than everybody else just because they believe a certain way. I tend to not have a lot of respect for Christians because they won't use they're brains - they're blinded by their religion..........hey, isn't that how we got here?