Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Cyaneyed

Frederik Norden & Causeways

11 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Cyaneyed

I recently came across Norden's work due to a video on youtube, which told the story of his 'fourth pyramid' on the Giza plateau, which claimed said pyramid was taken apart and looted by Freemasons. It seems quite obvious to me after a little research that he was probably describing G III-a. As a matter of cross reference, George Sandy's 1610 woodcut also seems to show an extra pyramid of proportions greater than should be, but when you actually read his words, he is clear about there being 3 main pyramids. Whether G III-a once stood a little higher I am not able to say.

 

Anyway, the purpose of this post was not to look at the imagined missing pyramid, but rather to look at the causeways that Norden clearly marks. It's obvious that Norden's perspective isn't anywhere near perfect, but the landmarks are pretty accurate; a shelf behind Khafre's pyramid, the temple before the Menkaure causeway etc. As such I added a red line below to mark perspective left and right of the Sphinx. From there, Norden very clearly shows that the Menkaure and Khufu pyramid causeways went pretty far beyond:

 

norden1_zpsvohkdrui.jpg

 

Much of the area below the GP has been engulfed by modern Cairo, but interestingly the causeway there isn't marked as starting at the base of the pyramid (or a nonexistant temple), rather it looks to start at the edge of the plateau shelf. This would imply that the causeway began past the satellite pyramids (though Norden doesn't draw them). I have shown the approximate locations of causeways from Norden's diagram below with yellow lines.

 

There is a very clear gap in the Menkaure causeway. It terminates exactly where it appears to in modern times, implying it is long since lost. But what interests me is that the causeway is shown as resuming after a small distance. The area it is shown in is still accessible now, to a point. It runs into a small residential area, out of which what seems to be an ancient wall snakes, though this wall is not contiguous with the implied line in Norden's diagram. Norden suggests a straight line, whereas the wall coming out of the settlement is diagnonal, and not logically linked to the causeway. This diagonal wall is not shown in his diagram.

 

All leading me to wonder, is the wall still extant a remainder from another causeway/if so from where? I marked in yellow the supposed location of the missing pyramid, and while I don't believe it existed, it's interesting that the wall, if it were extended upwards, would reach the same approximate location (purple line). How does this wall relate to the prior location of the Nile?

 

And I also wonder, has there ever been an attempt to uncover the rest of Menkaure's causeway?

Norden2_zpsvm5lsjyk.jpg

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Sir Wearer of Hats

Why would the Freemasons take apart a Pyramid? 

Now, I can imagine a whole host of ideas but every single one is smack bang in the eerie Netherlands inhabited by Doctor Who and Assassin’s Creed. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cyaneyed
4 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Why would the Freemasons take apart a Pyramid? 

Now, I can imagine a whole host of ideas but every single one is smack bang in the eerie Netherlands inhabited by Doctor Who and Assassin’s Creed. 

Indeed, an obvious nonsense. I think it's one of those things. Everyone knows that Ancient Egyptian ideas find their way into the mystery schools, and so on. It's all too easy to invent something like that and link it to masons because they have an interest in the same iconography. I have yet to find any indication of where that rumour originated. But I would venture to guess that making them look bad was the source of the story, rather than an 'unfortunate take-away'.

 

I had to mention it in the context of Norden's diagram, as it was that hook that led me to seeing it to begin with.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats

True.

 

I wonder if LIDAR could find any trace of the causeway (or the footprint of the fourth pyramid). 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harte

Here's an Arabic-language report that some of Khufu's causeway has been found under a house, south of the Gizamids;

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://gate.ahram.org.eg/News/579717.aspx&prev=search

Haven't been able to confirm it. Haven't tried very hard though.

Harte

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kmt_sesh
On 3/19/2018 at 4:58 PM, Harte said:

Here's an Arabic-language report that some of Khufu's causeway has been found under a house, south of the Gizamids;

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://gate.ahram.org.eg/News/579717.aspx&prev=search

Haven't been able to confirm it. Haven't tried very hard though.

Harte

It's true. I remember it being discovered within the past several years. The discovery generated a short burst of media interest and then died away pretty quick. It was interesting just because almost all of Khufu's causeway is gone. I think it's still not known how far out it extended.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cyaneyed

Thanks for the links - a great shame so much is lost, though fascinating that remnants still remain in such a trivial manner.

 

Reading through Mark Lehner's 'The Complete Pyramids', I came across a couple of references to both causeways, in the Menkaure example he has quite a good explanation for the causeway stopping and resuming as it does.

 

On Khufu's causeway (p.109):

 

'Khufu's causeway walls must have been covered with a fine relief carving - as we know from the testimony of Herodotus and the discovery of a few carved pieces. Its foundations rose to an astonishing height of more than 40m (131 ft) to carry the corridor from the ege of the plateau down to the valley temple. East of the escarpment these foundations were still extant at the turn of this century. A basalt pavement is probably the remains of the valley temple. It isotherwise completely unknown and its form remains totally hypothetical'

 

On Menkaure's causeway (p.136):

 

'Had Menkaure's complex been completer, the causeway would have been walled and roofed and extended all the way down to the valley temple. It is conventionally stated that Shepseskaf completed the causeway, but in mudbrick rather than limestone. However, it does not stretch beyond the point where it meets the West side of the old quarry. From this point to the valley temple the causeway was probably neeer more than a construction ramp for delivering stone.'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xarel

Hello fellow GP fans,

that image of Norden is a great find, thanks!

However, it appears to me that you underestimate the amount of knowledge we have regarding Khufus causeway.

The causeway started from the pyramid temple, that is clearly visible in the maps I will link to below, as well as on google maps satellite images and I personally examined it several times :) You can even see where the causeway met the “door” at the temple, because the remains of the temple wall have a gap at that point.

The length and direction from the plateau to the valley temple, including a "bend" midway, is well known because the remains of the causeway were apparently clearly visible for the early modern researchers like Norden, Perring and Lepsius and they subsequently drew it in their maps.

I recommend the paintings of Lepsius to get an idea how the causeway looked like in his time:

http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/BlaetterFrame-tw11-i.htm

Especially:
page 16 - the "bend"
page 17 - this is how the causeway looked like from the plateau
page 22 - a good impression what Lepsius found: Foundation stones, rubble, no design or structure left.
I also think this explains Nordens map: The remnants of the causeway on the plateau were probably below a layer of sand, but the part descending from the plateau was certainly visible for him. So he drew that part only.

Further research in the 20th century was done by Hassan et al. He found the foundation layers of the causeway at several points, all the way down from the plateau deep into the village which has overgrown it. In 1990, they found the valley temple, I think this doc has more info: http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/hawass_fs_lauer.pdf
So, current knowledge is able to give precise measurements of the causeway for its entire length.

All this is described on a great website, although in German:

About the causeway (note Perrings map, including the bend)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbenben.de%2FArchitektur%2FCheops%2FCheops06.html&edit-text=

and the valley temple:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbenben.de%2FArchitektur%2FCheops%2FCheops05.html

So: That egyptian guy who "found" the causeway some years ago probably simply studied the old maps and figured that his house was standing on top of what was left of it. Like so often in egyptology, the headlines back then where misleading: His findings weren’t a new discovery, the location of the causeway was always known.

I think it would be possible to dig those remains out, but that would be a huge project, requiring dozens of houses to be razed and given the state it was 170 years ago, would possibly provide a poor visual reward and few new insights. It would certainly be worth it in a country with few archeological remains, but I guess in Egypt it’s on priority list D :)

 
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cyaneyed

Great post xarel, thank you. I will read through the links more fully tomorrow. It's such a shame such an important site wasn't conserved/protected. Zawyet Al-Aran comes to mind...literally used as a rubbish dump on a military site. The very people who are meant to be protecting the antiquities. Such a shame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Harte
13 hours ago, Cyaneyed said:

Great post xarel, thank you. I will read through the links more fully tomorrow. It's such a shame such an important site wasn't conserved/protected. Zawyet Al-Aran comes to mind...literally used as a rubbish dump on a military site. The very people who are meant to be protecting the antiquities. Such a shame.

A common claim, but when I looked into it (I think last Summer,) I couldn't find any support for it.

Harte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kmt_sesh
12 hours ago, Harte said:

A common claim, but when I looked into it (I think last Summer,) I couldn't find any support for it.

Harte

It's true that Zawyet Al-Aran was within a military site, and for the longest time, as part of a military site it was off-limits to tourists. But it's been available now for a while. I'm not aware of accurate information that it was used as a dump, however.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.